The nature of its closure is irrelevant to the situation now. The threshold to maintain an existing railway is significantly bellow the threshold required to compete with other projects to reopen a line. It doesnt follow that just because the line shouldnt have been closed, means it should be reopened. There are far more deserving projects and government funding would have to be multiples of current levels for Keswick-Penrith to get to the top of the funding pile. Yes its a shame that thr line was closed but the plans reopen the line are little more than a fantasy. I wish people would stop using Borders Rail to try to give credibility to every reopening project, it was the result of highly unnusal political circumstances. Around Chester most of the line closures were justified apart from Dee Junction-Blacon-Chester which would comfortably support an hourly service, possibly half hourly. It was also profitable when it was closed. Do I think there is any chance of reopening, no, definately not.
-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
North Lakes Railway
- Thread starter ItsGrimUpNorth
- Start date
- Status
The nature of its closure is irrelevant to the situation now. The threshold to maintain an existing railway is significantly bellow the threshold required to compete with other projects to reopen a line. It doesnt follow that just because the line shouldnt have been closed, means it should be reopened. There are far more deserving projects and government funding would have to be multiples of current levels for Keswick-Penrith to get to the top of the funding pile. Yes its a shame that thr line was closed but the plans reopen the line are little more than a fantasy. I wish people would stop using Borders Rail to try to give credibility to every reopening project, it was the result of highly unnusal political circumstances. Around Chester most of the line closures were justified apart from Dee Junction-Blacon-Chester which would comfortably support an hourly service, possibly half hourly. It was also profitable when it was closed. Do I think there is any chance of reopening, no, definately not.
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
QueensCurve
Established Member
- Joined
- 22 Dec 2014
- Messages
- 2,203
On a note of historical accuracy, the A66 wasn't enhanced until the 1970s. I recall standing on the bridge carrying the Keswick to Latrigg footpath over the new road while the road was still being built underneath in October 1973.
The improvement to the A595 on the A66 to Papcastle bit didn't come for some years after that.
The M6 between Carnforth (Jct 35) and Carlisle (Jct 44) opened in 1971.
Last edited:
Actually on a variety of dates between 1968 and 1971, the bulk of it being in 1970.
The A66 was also done in a number of stages.
Last edited:
I am sorry if it came over as emotional as it was meant to be factual, but I really enjoyed my childhood visits to Workington and North Lakes from the West Country and this must have shown through. Stanier Pacifics on the Glasgow and Edinburgh-Birminghams mostly run as separate trains when I used them. The overnight Birmingham-Glasgow and Edinburghs tended to be double headed Black 5s as far a Carlisle with sixteen Mark 1s behind as they ran via Boars Head Junction to Chorley and then to Cherry Tree Junction, Blackburn, Clitheroe, Hellifield (crew change) Ais Gill, Carlisle instead of via Shap.
Back on topic, it is well known now in transport circles that visitors hate a mode change. If they cannot reach their destination by train, they will not use train and tend to use the car due to the uncertainty or insecurity of connections and not being able to book through with one ticket.
In my campaign to reinstate rail to Ripon, I constantly ask visitors how they travelled to Ripon and 99% of the answers is that we have travelled by car because you do not have a railway station. If you had one we would have come by train. This is despite Harrogate being only 11 miles away with a bus from Harrogate to Ripon every 15 minutes. Very few visitors arrive by coach. They are mostly Ripon people returning after using the coach for their outward journey.
This is probably why not many use the Penrith-Keswick-Workington bus but would use a connecting train especially something like a 350/4 or Electrostar if electrified or Turbostar if not. Windermere has similar with decent trains and Boness and Ambleside being close enough for taxi transfer. I wonder how they will take to 319s?
P.S. North Yorkshire County Council in a Strategic Transport Prospectus published only last week, has recommended to the Northern Powerhouse that Harrogate-Ripon-Northallerton be reinstated as Network Rail has shown an interest in this route as a diversion route for York-Northallerton and another route from Leeds to the North avoiding York.
In this prospectus is a proposal to reduce Leeds-Harrogate journey time to 15 minutes currently 26 minutes non-stop.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
On leaving school I joined the RAF as a pilot. In September 1967, I was posted to RAF Leeming in North Yorkshire and travelled across to Workington via the A66 and A595 many times after that date. In the Autumn of 1967, junction work with the M6 and A595 had started including the dual carriage way for the first few miles west out of Penrith before joining the original road as I can remember the road works and diversions during that year. I am sure both roads were complete and open by the time I left Leeming in August 1968.West of the dual carriageway was not completed until after the rail line was closed as this cut through an embankment just west of Penruddick.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Thank you Yorksrob for your kind comment. I have thought for some time now that we think similarly
Howardh
Established Member
- Joined
- 17 May 2011
- Messages
- 9,795
Looking at an OS map it seems most of the old track is available east of Keswick and to the west is devoured by the A66.
Simple and probably most cost-effective to me would be to tarmac the old railway and have it join the A66 and run exclusively rail-buses on it - so the west Lakes have a quick link to the WCML avoiding much of the A66 and the buses could continue their journey at either end.
If these "rail/roads" were private I wonder if "guided" buses could reach or exceed 70mph? But I suppose thta would add to the cost and be uneconomic.
But for me that would be a much more appealing way to get to Keswick/Cockermouth than by any other method and I'd certainly visit those areas more often than I do now.
Simple and probably most cost-effective to me would be to tarmac the old railway and have it join the A66 and run exclusively rail-buses on it - so the west Lakes have a quick link to the WCML avoiding much of the A66 and the buses could continue their journey at either end.
If these "rail/roads" were private I wonder if "guided" buses could reach or exceed 70mph? But I suppose thta would add to the cost and be uneconomic.
But for me that would be a much more appealing way to get to Keswick/Cockermouth than by any other method and I'd certainly visit those areas more often than I do now.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Is there anyone on this thread with knowledge what the UK maximum speed allowable is for vehicles on a "Guided Busway"
D1009
Established Member
Presumably by its nature it would not be a public highway, so could be used at whatever speed the vehicles are designed to run, subject to risk assessments etc.
Those "highly unusual political circumstances" presumably being a functioning democracy, something we should try in England one day.
Frankly, I'm no longer surprised the defeatist attitude that seems to pervade these forums on the subject. The Keswick - Penrith line is largely intact as a trackbed and would make an excellent pilot project to investigate ways of opening a railway line without accruing all the vast costs that a NR reopening project would take. They could experiment by using second hand components perhaps (track no longer suitable for 125 mph running, but in good nick for a local service for example). They could experiment with lower cost signalling options, or perhaps they could use local building contractors. This could be a very good test bed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
You're most welcome, and best of luck with Ripon !
backontrack
Established Member
The X4/5 route is better used west of Keswick. Now a Stagecoach Gold route.
555 is always crowded - operates Keswick-Grasmere-Ambleside-Windermere-Staveley-Kendal-Milnthorpe-Carnforth-Lancaster Uni-Lancaster. During the summer, runs every 30 mins, with alternate services skipping Milnthorpe and Carnforth, instead running direct via the M6.
Helvellyn
Established Member
- Joined
- 28 Aug 2009
- Messages
- 2,576
Whilst if the line reopened I like the suggestion of trains operating Keswick-Penrith, my fear would be that Penrith would lose some stops of WCML and TPE services. If there was to be a service through to Carlisle it would be worth looking at whether some of the intermediate stations between Penrith and Carlisle could be reopened.
The Cambridge busway is 60mph between road junctions but looking at the way the concrete track sections are wearing, it has been suggested lower maximum speeds will be imposed and possibly complete closure in places for repairs. Checkout the 'Cast Iron' website for latest news.
Coincidentally, my daughter is in Keswick as I write. She phoned this evening to say that Keswick is heaving both with traffic and people even in the drizzle. You would expect a bus service to Penrith to have more than two or three passengers with this amount of visitors.
As another aside, my parents spent the first night of their honeymoon in Keswick in 1929 and the following day caught a train to London.
Last edited by a moderator:
PaulLothian
Member
'In the drizzle' is possibly a relevant point - Keswick, Ambleside and other tourist hot spots always appear to be fuller of people (often in serious walking gear) when the weather doesn't lend itself to serious hill-walking. I know that is the only time we ever normally can be found there. Don't think I have ever walked round Keswick in the sunshine!
D1009
Established Member
Which suggests the best means of guiding a vehicle is a pair of rails.
QueensCurve
Established Member
- Joined
- 22 Dec 2014
- Messages
- 2,203
I stand corrected.
From J35 to 40 The motorway was opened in October 1970 with a maximum elevation of 1036 ft compared with that of the A6 it replaced of 1390 ft. It received a Civic Trust Award and the following wording appears on a plaque in a lay-by off the A685 overlooking the Lune Gorge:-
The opening of the Penrith to Carlisle Section in July 1971 marked the interim completion of the M6 through the North West Region. It was to be another 37 years before the route finally stretched from the Staffordshire boundary to the Scottish Border, a length of 155 miles.
I have surprised myself by discovering one section opened earlier. I suspect that the first part of the A66 Dual Carriageway from J40 to the roundabout either side was completed with the M6 in 1970.
Also I believe the Keswick line was realigned at this time to make a junction with the WCML further out from the station to obviate the need for an additional bridge over the motorway.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Are you Alfred Sherman by any chance?
Last edited:
Altnabreac
Established Member
Here's a 5 minute business case analysis using my patented BoaFP (Back of a Fag Packet) business case assessor:
So broadly speaking unfortunately the reopening scores at most 0.5 out of 4. Any interested groups are more than welcome to pay me £30,000 to write up those conclusions in more detail and then submit my report to be filed by CCC and DfT.
- Keswick has a population of around 5,000, Cockermouth another 8,000, nowhere else on the line has a population of more than 500.
- Nearest big commuter generating destinations would be Preston and Manchester which are 60/120 minutes from Penrith so more like 90/150 minutes from Keswick.
- Not too bad between Penrith and Keswick although partial encroachment, very poor west of Keswick.
- Lack of capacity on WCML almost certainly means the service would operate as a branch.
So broadly speaking unfortunately the reopening scores at most 0.5 out of 4. Any interested groups are more than welcome to pay me £30,000 to write up those conclusions in more detail and then submit my report to be filed by CCC and DfT.
If I supply a second fag packet, can we negotiate the price down a bit?
To be more serious: you are quite correct, without some access either to Lancaster or to Carlisle, this is probably a non-starter. Once again: a line that very definitely should not have been closed - but will be difficult to reopen.
Off topic for a railway forum, but the first section of the M6 to open anywhere north of Carnforth (J35) was the Penrith bypass in 1968, extending from J41 south past J40 to a temporary junction (a flat roundabout) with the A6 south of Hackthorpe. I'm not sure offhand whether the adjacent sections of A66 opened simultaneously. Nor can I remember offhand at what date the route west from Penrith stopped being A594 and became A66. (There were also some nifty number swaps involving the B5288, B5320 and A592).
The second section of the M6 to open in the area was in 1969, a couple of miles southward from that temporary junction (where the roundabout was abolished) to a second temporary junction at Thrimby Grange involving a couple of slip roads to the A6.
The Motorway Archive is oversimplifying if it says J35 to J40 opened in October 1970 as it is neglecting the two temporary junctions. It's also neglecting the fact that, if I remember correctly, the southbound carriageway from J36 to J35 opened somewhat before the rest.
The Carlisle bypass (J42 to J44) opened in about December 1970 and as you say the Penrith to Carlisle section (J41 to J42) opened in 1971.
Last edited:
RichmondCommu
Established Member
Unlike the Southern Lakes, if you're heading for the Northern Lakes (or Central Lakes) you're generally either a walker / climber, fell runner or you're into water sports. Lets face facts Keswick is not a honey pot, it's simply a wet weather alternative. The line to Windermere survived because come rain or shine Windermere, Ambleside and to a lesser extent Conniston are honey pots. For many visitors to those places they're just after a day out and essentially all you need are a pair of trainers and a waterproof. The train will pretty much take you all the way there and you're not carrying much baggage if any at all.
As soon as you start planning a weekend walking in the fells train travel becomes far less attractive and that would be the case even if the line to Keswick and beyond was re-opened. As another poster has suggested changing between different modes of transport puts a lot of people off but even if there was a train service to Keswick you would still need to catch a bus to the likes of Buttermere. If you're heading to the fells for the weekend it's much easier to load the car up rather than in our case carting everything you need from Richmond to Euston and then on to Oxenholme or Penrith. And if you decide to take your chances and camp the car is almost as essential as the tent.
As soon as you start planning a weekend walking in the fells train travel becomes far less attractive and that would be the case even if the line to Keswick and beyond was re-opened. As another poster has suggested changing between different modes of transport puts a lot of people off but even if there was a train service to Keswick you would still need to catch a bus to the likes of Buttermere. If you're heading to the fells for the weekend it's much easier to load the car up rather than in our case carting everything you need from Richmond to Euston and then on to Oxenholme or Penrith. And if you decide to take your chances and camp the car is almost as essential as the tent.
Last edited:
Thank you for your confirmation. I knew I was right about 1967/68 as it was a regular journey at that time and I can remember all the construction work, muddy roads and diversions.
Sorry. Got my road numbers wrong. You are correct, the Penrith-Keswick road number was A594 at that time and A595 was Keswick-Workington road until both changed to A66 sometime in the late 1980s/early 1990s?
I think it was much earlier, possibly 1968 to coincide with the opening of the M6 past Penrith. The A66, which until then had stretched only from Penrith on the A6 to Scotch Corner on the A1, was extended at both ends, largely by renumbering, to extend almost coast to coast, though with a dogleg along the A1(M). I've just checked a 1971 map which shows it as A66 throughout.
The A595 was and is Calisle - Cockermouth - Whitehaven - Dalton-in-Furness. The only major change to its route in recent decades was the Papcastle bypass. The Papcastle to Bridgefoot section is what on the SABRE website would be called a multiplex with the A66.
Last edited:
As a very regular Lakes visitor and hill walker Keswick is a real honeypot, as busy as Ambleside and Windermere/Bowness. It is not a wet weather alternative, certainly no more than going into any other town in the Lake District. As a place to stay it is indeed as a great a draw, with many, many hotels/B&Bs and holiday cottages, As for travelling to the likes of Buttermere - yes you need a bus - which runs from..... Keswick! And there is one during the season for all those who are staying in .... Keswick. It is very rarely anything other than full on departure. If you want Consiton then that's a bus from Windermere, unless youa re staying there already as no railway there either. As for a day out in Consiton? Well yes there is a lakeside walk, other than that its the Old Man, Wetherlam or other mountains, easily as challenging as the tourist routes from Keswick. In fact Keswick offers far more 'trainers and raincoat' walks than does Coniston - multiple route lakeside walks, railway trail, Latrigg, Cat Bells and Dodd - the 'tourist paths' abound in the area. I assure you that for those of us who are Lakes regulars, and from the Northern counties, Keswick is the Lakes and the majority of Lake District visitors want mountains and lakes. Windermere is on the very southern tip of the district, outside the mountains. Ambleside is the start proper, but still only the southern tip. Most of us see Keswick as the centre of the Lake District.
RichmondCommu
Established Member
In that case how did Windermere avoid the chop when Keswick didn't? All this points to the fact that Windermere and Ambleside are busier with day trippers, at least that is certainly the case in my experience. How many people heading to the fells that can be easily accessed from Ambleside e.g. places like Langdale actually travel by public transport? Judging by the number of cars that can be found in the area at weekends my guess is not many. And judging by how busy the car parks get at Conniston again I would suggest the numbers are pretty low.
At a guess, because the Establishment felt that they could get away with closing Keswick, but not Windermere.
backontrack
Established Member
Also, because Keswick was a longer line with more stops, it represented a higher saving.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Would the fact that Kendal was one of the three intermediate stations on the Windermere branch line have affected the decision that was made?
backontrack
Established Member
Kendal was and is better served by Oxenholme.
Altfish
Member
Could it be anything to do with the fact that Windermere was a south facing junction so through trains could be run from Preston, Lancaster, Manchester and beyond. Where I would imagine the main demand comes from.
Keswick was north facing, the demand from Carlisle and Scotland not as high?
Keswick was north facing, the demand from Carlisle and Scotland not as high?
backontrack
Established Member
There was a southwards-facing chord that allowed access to the line from the south as well as the north.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Only in terms of frequency. Oxenholme is on the outskirts. Though of course buses could have provided a connection.
Altfish
Member
I assume that by-passed Penrith though?
- Status