London Midland Great Escapes

[185143]

Does anyone know why this fantastic offer has not been repeated since April? I bet they introduce it again just as I'm 16...

But on a serious note, they are absolutely fantastic if used well, have LM had cold feet about it?

 

[Greeby]

The main franchise ended in September and LM is currently in an extension period till March, hoping to get a direct award to take them to 2017. I remember reading in the details of the extension that London Midland could not offer any new ticket discounts other than those already available. Perhaps the Great Escape is included in that?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ah, could be. Might also be that it was the brainchild (I think) of David Whitley who has now moved out of publicity and is I think some kind of operations manager in the Midlands.

 

[coxy]

Does anyone know why this fantastic offer has not been repeated since April? I bet they introduce it again just as I'm 16...

But on a serious note, they are absolutely fantastic if used well, have LM had cold feet about it?

By strange coincidence, I contacted LM last week to see if they were running another Great Escape this year.

I got an automated reply saying that it could take up to 10 working days before they got the info to me, but within 36 hours I got some feedback - which went on to say that the Customer Relations Dept. were "not informed of any future promotions that are scheduled to take place".

I took this to be a bit of a non answer - if they are not informed, then go and ask somebody !!

Bottom line, I don't think there will be another Great Escape this year.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The other issue with Great Escapes is that they result in high levels of complaints due to overcrowding. LM's already low fares are filling the trains up already. They don't need to discount any further.

 

[centraltrains]

By strange coincidence, I contacted LM last week to see if they were running another Great Escape this year.

I got an automated reply saying that it could take up to 10 working days before they got the info to me, but within 36 hours I got some feedback - which went on to say that the Customer Relations Dept. were "not informed of any future promotions that are scheduled to take place".

I took this to be a bit of a non answer - if they are not informed, then go and ask somebody !!

Bottom line, I don't think there will be another Great Escape this year.

By that I would agree as I asked them when they'd next do it again on Twitter a few years again; they didn't say when but they were able to confirm they would do it "By the end of the year".

I wonder how the economics of the offer work when they spent quite a bit on advertising it last year though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdzOy1eehQM

 

[crehld]

The other issue with Great Escapes is that they result in high levels of complaints due to overcrowding. LM's already low fares are filling the trains up already. They don't need to discount any further.

People are complaining to LM about the overcrowding (especially on the Trent Valley services) all the time, whether or not the offer is running, so they're at no disadvantage. If anything the offer makes them a bit of extra cash... sure people will moan about the overcrowding, but that's no different from any other day for LM!

 

[Starmill]

The other issue with Great Escapes is that they result in high levels of complaints due to overcrowding. LM's already low fares are filling the trains up already. They don't need to discount any further.

Wait a sec. The Great Escapes are typically only having this effect on weekends and bank holidays. What happens on weekends and bank holidays? Oh yeah, 4-coach trains. It wouldn't be anything to do with that instead would it!

 

[Kite159]

I would suspect LM's Great Escape might go the same way as the SWT's rover days, replaced with LM only Point to Point day return tickets for £X.

(A shame as I could do with a Great Escape to try and clear some of the stations on the southern end of the WCML and the Marston Vale line)

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would suspect LM's Great Escape might go the same way as the SWT's rover days, replaced with LM only Point to Point day return tickets for £X.

Those existed before GE, and will continue to exist after it - and are excellent value!

(A shame as I could do with a Great Escape to try and clear some of the stations on the southern end of the WCML and the Marston Vale line)

It's a shame the south WCML bit is the bit you need, as the West Midlands Day Ranger is basically identical to the GE as far south as Northampton with added other TOC validity, and is available every day, albeit a bit pricier (but still not bad value if you're ticking lines off).

 

[Keith Jarrett]

(A shame as I could do with a Great Escape to try and clear some of the stations on the southern end of the WCML and the Marston Vale line)

Kite, At least the Marston Vale line is covered by the East Midlands Rover although that's one of the more pricey Rovers. Then you'd only be left with the intermediate shacks between Watford and Bletchley to worry about. And if you need anything on the Abbey Line, I think there's is a bit of scope for some creative bashing with your trusty bike (which is probably somewhat more reliable than the 319s that are currently plying their trade on that line).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wait a sec. The Great Escapes are typically only having this effect on weekends and bank holidays. What happens on weekends and bank holidays? Oh yeah, 4-coach trains. It wouldn't be anything to do with that instead would it!

They also have that effect on weekdays in the daytime. When there are also 4-car trains.

Yes, 4-car trains are one of the biggest problems (really there is little justification for anything to be fewer than 8 except contra-peak where that is genuinely due to stock availability), but I don't see why LM should basically take a loss leader by very cheap tickets requiring more capacity.

 

[Starmill]

They're probably not loss leaders. The marginal fare you can take by accommodating 8 coaches worth of people is going to be a lot less than the marginal cost of running 8 coaches over 4, given most of the costs are fixed (staff) or only incurred when an expansion in productive capacity is required (which, if the train is sat on the depot, it isn't).

 

[RichmondCommu]

Wait a sec. The Great Escapes are typically only having this effect on weekends and bank holidays. What happens on weekends and bank holidays? Oh yeah, 4-coach trains. It wouldn't be anything to do with that instead would it!

Hang on a minute, they are running four coach trains from the Trent Valley to London during the week as well! There is nothing to stop people taking a day off work and taking advantage of the Great Escape offer during the week is there?

 

[Starmill]

Are there actually any trains that become overcrowded on weekdays during Great Escapes that aren't overcrowded on weekdays when there's not a Great Escape on? I've never hear of such a complaint.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, almost any 4 car.

 

[plcd1]

The main franchise ended in September and LM is currently in an extension period till March, hoping to get a direct award to take them to 2017. I remember reading in the details of the extension that London Midland could not offer any new ticket discounts other than those already available. Perhaps the Great Escape is included in that?

I think one other factor might be that LM have chosen to add a plethora of restrictions on GE tickets and to price them up. I have stopped using the offer since the product offer became more complex and costly. I also felt, perhaps unfairly, that a slightly earlier start time for trains out of Euston might have been warranted to use spare contra peak capacity at that time and to make a "day out" slightly more viable.

I completely understand the concerns about severe overcrowding on particular routes and have experienced very busy trains on GE days. It's a shame but I suspect the Great Escape product has had its day and won't reappear even if Govia gain a franchise direct award extension.

 

[crehld]

Are there actually any trains that become overcrowded on weekdays during Great Escapes that aren't overcrowded on weekdays when there's not a Great Escape on? I've never hear of such a complaint.

I don't quite understand your question (sorry )

LM Trent Valley services are always overcrowded, regardless of a Great Escape offer in progress or not. For example on my journey to London a couple of weeks ago a number of passengers were unable to board a Nuneaton (would have been about 9:30 on a Monday for a 11 o'clock arrival into London, so hardly a peak service).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They also have that effect on weekdays in the daytime. When there are also 4-car trains.

Yes, 4-car trains are one of the biggest problems (really there is little justification for anything to be fewer than 8 except contra-peak where that is genuinely due to stock availability), but I don't see why LM should basically take a loss leader by very cheap tickets requiring more capacity.

It's not a loss leader at all. The services are over crowded regardless. All you end up doing is encouraging a few more people to buy tickets yet run the same over crowded trains... if anything it should make money.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Hang on a minute, they are running four coach trains from the Trent Valley to London during the week as well! There is nothing to stop people taking a day off work and taking advantage of the Great Escape offer during the week is there?

Nothing to stop you at all. You'd still be getting on the same overcrowded four coach trains.

 

[142092]

On 16th October LM sent me this email:
Where have you been?
We've missed you! As it's been a while since you last booked online at londonmidland.com,
we've got a 25% discount offer for you.
To claim your discount on any London Midland 'Advance' ticket, follow these simple steps:
click claim 25% offer button
enter your registered email address
enter this pincode: LM25
claim 25% offer
P.S - Don't miss out, book before 5 November for travel until 31 December!
Leaving Euston the train was rammed full and 4 out of 10 persons got evicted from First Class. I've managed to book 3 more tickets for later jollies.

 

[crehld]

On 16th October LM sent me this email:
Where have you been?
We've missed you! As it's been a while since you last booked online at londonmidland.com,
we've got a 25% discount offer for you.
To claim your discount on any London Midland 'Advance' ticket, follow these simple steps:
click claim 25% offer button
enter your registered email address
enter this pincode: LM25
claim 25% offer
P.S - Don't miss out, book before 5 November for travel until 31 December!
Leaving Euston the train was rammed full and 4 out of 10 persons got evicted from First Class. I've managed to book 3 more tickets for later jollies.

Indeed. LM don't care about the overcrowding. For them advance fares and special promotions isn't about yield management... it's about generating extra revenue. I fall for the trap everytime!

 

[Bletchleyite]

LM Trent Valley services are always overcrowded, regardless of a Great Escape offer in progress or not. For example on my journey to London a couple of weeks ago a number of passengers were unable to board a Nuneaton (would have been about 9:30 on a Monday for a 11 o'clock arrival into London, so hardly a peak service).

And as I've long said, if you can fill the trains without deep discounting, there is no (financial, nor passenger comfort) sense in deep discounting.

It's not a loss leader at all.

I meant it would be if they extended to 8 cars for that purpose.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

P.S - Don't miss out, book before 5 November for travel until 31 December!
Leaving Euston the train was rammed full and 4 out of 10 persons got evicted from First Class. I've managed to book 3 more tickets for later jollies.

Surprising - LM always seem very quick to declassify.

 

[Starmill]

Yes, almost any 4 car.

How many 4-car trains are there on weekdays? Typically Crewe trains only on the main line? And how crowded are they when the offer is not on? Typically very very!

I am not convinced any distinction is there.

And as I've long said, if you can fill the trains without deep discounting, there is no (financial, nor passenger comfort) sense in deep discounting.

Because it fits your view that trains should be both comfortable (because you don't like busy ones) and expensive (because you're well-salaried enough to pay for them). This does not, with the greatest of respect, make you correct!

 

[Bletchleyite]

How many 4-car trains are there on weekdays? Typically Crewe trains only on the main line?

Most trains serving Northampton-Euston between the peaks as well. You can see them on the mini timetable (never quite knew why they weren't on the full one):

http://www.londonmidland.com/download/109145.4/northampton-london-euston/

And how crowded are they when the offer is not on? Typically very very!

So why make it worse?

I am not convinced any distinction is there.

If there are more cheap tickets on offer, of course they will be more overcrowded.

Because it fits your view that trains should be both comfortable (because you don't like busy ones) and expensive (because you're well-salaried enough to pay for them). This does not, with the greatest of respect, make you correct!

I think calling LM's regular walk up tickets "expensive" is way wide of the mark. LM's dedicated walk-up tickets are incredibly good value for money.

On the other point, if you feel it is preferable to have trains with barely any standing room so tickets can be *very* cheap, I would suggest you are in a minority. People do think interavailable walk-up tickets are too expensive (I do as well in many cases), but this is rather an extreme when LM's walk up tickets are such good value.

I therefore see very little case for another GE at present.

 

[hassaanhc]

How many 4-car trains are there on weekdays? Typically Crewe trains only on the main line? And how crowded are they when the offer is not on? Typically very very!

I am not convinced any distinction is there.

Most Euston > Birmingham ones are 4 cars, if not throughout then at least north of Northampton.

And as I've long said, if you can fill the trains without deep discounting, there is no (financial, nor passenger comfort) sense in deep discounting.

Oh here we go again :roll:. Has it ever occurred to you that maybe it is Virgin's Farsi that are deeply overinflated and LM's ones are the reasonable ones. Shock horror, almost no one considers £67.40 (London to Stoke) or £74.20 (London to Crewe) to be anything less than daylight robbery. No wonder people use LM.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oh here we go again :roll:. Has it ever occurred to you that maybe it is Virgin's Farsi that are deeply overinflated and LM's ones are the reasonable ones. Shock horror, almost no one considers £67.40 (London to Stoke) or £74.20 (London to Crewe) to be anything less than daylight robbery. No wonder people use LM.

I was referring to Great Escape and the price-dumped sub-£10 Advances.

 

[crehld]

And as I've long said, if you can fill the trains without deep discounting, there is no (financial, nor passenger comfort) sense in deep discounting.

But from LM's point of view it makes perfect financial sense. Passenger comfort isn't concern with these offers. You've already got overcrowded trains, so a few more complaints here and there is nothing. By offering a super cheap ticket you're encouraging those who would not have considered travelling (even with LM's comparatively cheaper walk up fares) to buy a ticket. More passengers buying tickets = more revenue. Whether you have the capacity for those passengers is neither here nor there, especially when you don't have to guarentee a seat. You or I may not agree with it, but I suspect the LM finance department loves it

I meant it would be if they extended to 8 cars for that purpose.

Apologies for misunderstanding.

 

[Trainfan344]

One of the problems with the Trent Valley services is that due to short platforms at Stone, Kidsgrove and Alsager the services have to be 4 car! What it needs is a 2nd LM an hour calling Crewe, Stoke, Stafford, and then as normal to Euston.

 

[bb21]

One of the problems with the Trent Valley services is that due to short platforms at Stone, Kidsgrove and Alsager the services have to be 4 car! What it needs is a 2nd LM an hour calling Crewe, Stoke, Stafford, and then as normal to Euston.

Where are you going to get the paths into/out of Euston from?

If stock is available, then what can be a workaround is to attach/detach a Crewe (direct)/Liverpool portion at Stafford and work as 8-car services between London and Stafford. Northbound it looks like during the day it would be fine. Southbound it would clash with the Glasgow service and has an XC Voyager timed a few minutes behind so some sort of rejig would be required.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One of the problems with the Trent Valley services is that due to short platforms at Stone, Kidsgrove and Alsager the services have to be 4 car! What it needs is a 2nd LM an hour calling Crewe, Stoke, Stafford, and then as normal to Euston.

Improving the service would only serve to increase demand further. They need to get UDS approved for those stations.

 

[centraltrains]

Where are you going to get the paths into/out of Euston from?

If stock is available, then what can be a workaround is to attach/detach a Crewe (direct)/Liverpool portion at Stafford and work as 8-car services between London and Stafford. Northbound it looks like during the day it would be fine. Southbound it would clash with the Glasgow service and has an XC Voyager timed a few minutes behind so some sort of rejig would be required.

I saw them say on Twitter they could use SDO but their are level crossings in the way. Would it not be possible for half the train to be stopped outside the station (on the non level crossing side) and use SDO?


Talking about overcrowding though London Midland on the Snow Hill lines will often only put out 2 & 3 coach trains! As frequency is reduced from 3tph to 1tph it makes services really busy as unfortunately the timetable doesn't keep up with modern day Sunday demand.