Ticket barriers now installed at Stoke-on-Trent

[thenorthern]

Not seen a thread on this yet but I have noticed the first set of barriers have been introduced at Stoke-on-Trent in the entrance hall next to Platform 1 this week. They are not switched on yet but Virgin Trains Welcome Hosts (aka RPIs) are doing manual ticket checks before they become fully operational next week I think. The entrance from the car park next to Platform 2 is still unmonitored but the barriers on Platform 2 should be operational early in the new year.

Its been quite funny though seeing the amount of Sixth Form College students being refused entry to the platform in the afternoon as they don't have a ticket despite catching the same train in the morning. I also came across a Chav who got off a Manchester to Bournemouth train who noticed the staff and tried to exit through the Pumpkin Cafe and the gate metal gate at the northern end Platform 1, both have now been locked since the barriers have been put in. The have been some angry people on Twitter by the looks of it.

Now the barriers have been put in I would think station usage from Longton will sharply rise its difficult for conductors to check all passengers tickets in such as short journey and in the mornings its impossible in a standing room only Class 153. In my opinion East Midlands Trains should now consider installing a Ticket Vending Machine at Longton to help with the crush of people trying to buy a ticket at Stoke-on-Trent every morning.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not just for that purpose, but also to catch people lying about having come from there.

 

[asylumxl]

People are angry about being caught trying to fare dodge?

 

[swt_passenger]

People are angry about being caught trying to fare dodge?

Dear Sir,

I have been traveling for free with your TOC for the last few years without any problems. I wish to point out that introducing a new scheme whereby I have to pay for a ticket has been done without adequate consultation.

I shall be writing to Passenger Focus forthwith.

Yours sincerely

Mick E Taker

 

[dk1]

People are angry about being caught trying to fare dodge?

If I lived nearby I would pop down to spectate this afternoon. Love watching the expression on the faces of such low life

 

[thenorthern]

Prior to the regular revenue blocks being in place at Manchester Piccadilly earlier this year the amount of people traveling without a ticket in and out Manchester on Virgin Trains was very high. Macclesfield passengers I found were the worst although Stoke-on-Trent did have a large amount of non-paying passengers as well. I have never fare dodged but when the chances of being caught are slim and the penalty is having to buy the ticket they should have bought its very tempting to attempt to avoid payment.

There is a penalty fare in place at Stoke-on-Trent but as far as I know it only applies to London Midland services.

If I lived nearby I would pop down to spectate this afternoon. Love watching the expression on the faces of such low life

There is some reaction on Twitter which is quite funny if you search "barriers stoke" or a similar combination.

Most of it is people not happy that they will have to now pay for the fare as its completely unjustified that a student from Longton now has to pay £2.20 per day to get the train to College as thats an increase of up to £11 per week depending on where to conductor was when they boarded the train.

 

[Kite159]

Time to break out the little violins for all the Stoke chavs having to pay now.

My heart goes out to them

 

[thenorthern]

Before the barriers were introduced a Stockport I was amazed by the amount of people with a Stoke-on-Trent accent who had to buy a ticket but got on at Stockport, honest.

Time to break out the little violins for all the Stoke chavs having to pay now.

My heart goes out to them

There used to be a piano there which has now been removed to allow space for the barriers.

 

[Kite159]

Hopefully Preston will be next up to get barriers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Preston is not getting barriers, the layout precludes it without major modifications.

 

[fairysdad]

I must admit, I was very surprised when I used Stoke-on-Trent back in the late spring that there weren't any barriers up there. Although, given the disruption that was in place on my return trip, it was quite useful that there weren't!

 

[BurtonM]

Ah, good news. I've seen stupid kids get on an XC to Manchester in Stoke, hiding behind cases in the luggage racks to avoid the guard for free rides to Manchester.
The guard found them and handed them over to BTP.
Hopefully this will stem a lot of that, as well as people going one stop on Virgin, seeing as Train Managers seldom do revenue north of the Midlands.

 

[QueensCurve]

People are angry about being caught trying to fare dodge?

I don't think that is the issue. The question is whether barriers are the best way to do it.

And while they are bringing back barriers, they are not bringing back platform tickets.

 

[BurtonM]

I wonder why...

 

[theshillito]

I don't think that is the issue. The question is whether barriers are the best way to do it.

And while they are bringing back barriers, they are not bringing back platform tickets.

Platform tickets are still a thing, at least unofficially, having recently got one at New Street. Blank ticket stock with handwritten note to let me see a friend off.

 

[Starmill]

A machine at Longton? Card only perchance? Limited range of destinations and fares available? Unclear what you're supposed to do if you're not able to use it? What about if you're going towards Derby, it's a long walk onto the Stoke platform?

Typically poorly thought through proposal.

 

[thenorthern]

Ah, good news. I've seen stupid kids get on an XC to Manchester in Stoke, hiding behind cases in the luggage racks to avoid the guard for free rides to Manchester.
The guard found them and handed them over to BTP.
Hopefully this will stem a lot of that, as well as people going one stop on Virgin, seeing as Train Managers seldom do revenue north of the Midlands.

Except in 1st Class where ticket inspections seem to happen on every journey for me. Virgin Trains have always seemed rather relaxed about ticket checks though whenever I have traveled. I have regularly gone from Stafford and Stoke-on-Trent to London without any checks.

As ticket barriers are now being introduced at Stoke-on-Trent, Stafford, Macclesfield and many more stops this approach seems to be coming to and end.

A machine at Longton? Card only perchance? Limited range of destinations and fares available? Unclear what you're supposed to do if you're not able to use it? What about if you're going towards Derby, it's a long walk onto the Stoke platform?

Typically poorly thought through proposal.

Even if it was only on the Stoke-on-Trent bound platform with cards only I would imagine many passengers would after a while begin to use it as they would realise that even if they didn't buy a ticket from it or on the train they would still have to buy one at Stoke-on-Trent and buying one before would prevent large queues when leaving the station.

 

[crehld]

A couple of questions about the barriers themselves if I may (given that's the purpose of the thread):

- Where exactly are they situated? Have they been able to find a location and installed enough gates which means a backlog of passengers will not form in the underpass or on the concourse.
- Are adequate and plentiful facilities provided for all those passengers 'travelling from Longport' who need to purchase tickets (a la Northern Rail at Manchester Victoria).
- Has direct access to the car park off platform two now been blocked off? (I hope not as I really don't fancy spending over ten minutes walking the dimly lit streets of Stoke to get to my car when I come back from London).
- Has direct access to the taxi rank and bus stops on platform one now been blocked off?

 

[Astraman]

Platform tickets are still a thing, at least unofficially, having recently got one at New Street. Blank ticket stock with handwritten note to let me see a friend off.

I noticed Crewe has got barriers now too.

 

[Starmill]

Even if it was only on the Stoke-on-Trent bound platform with cards only I would imagine many passengers would after a while begin to use it as they would realise that even if they didn't buy a ticket from it or on the train they would still have to buy one at Stoke-on-Trent and buying one before would prevent large queues when leaving the station.

Naturally.

But it wouldn't, as was suggested by another member, prevent people from short-faring.

At least at Longport there is independent access to each platform from the road - unlike at Newark Castle where you risk being trapped in the wrong side of a Level Crossing with no alternative as your train departs.

 

[crehld]

I noticed Crewe has got barriers now too.

Indeed! http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=120916

 

[ivanhoe]

It's amazing in 2015 we are celebrating ticket barriers installed at Stoke on Trent which will hopefully cut down on fare Dodgers. If it's anything like Loughborough , where the barriers are not always in operation, then the regular Dodgers will soon suss out when it is safe to travel. This will be down to having sufficient staff, which is not always the case at times. Fare Dodging in my opinion is akin to theft BUT how many of us have travelled say over 100 miles without having our tickets checked? It's surprisingly happened to me on a number of occasions often having a change of trains on route. Technology has its role to play but Government has a role to play here with both educating society and protecting tax payers who rarely travel by train.
We need to increase the odds of having your ticket checked or indeed having the opportunity to purchase tickets on board where applicable. This will cost money but you would think it would be self funding in the long run.

 

[dk1]

The ticket gates at Norwich are manned all day every day only being left open very late in the evening. Probably one of the most consistent on the AGA network from what I've seen.

I was pretty impressed with the set up at New Street last week after the previous hit/miss operation in Birmingham.

 

[thenorthern]

A couple of questions about the barriers themselves if I may (given that's the purpose of the thread):

- Where exactly are they situated? Have they been able to find a location and installed enough gates which means a backlog of passengers will not form in the underpass or on the concourse.

- Are adequate and plentiful facilities provided for all those passengers 'travelling from Longport' who need to purchase tickets (a la Northern Rail at Manchester Victoria).

Yes there are staff who can sell tickets on the platform side of the barriers.

- Has direct access to the car park off platform two now been blocked off? (I hope not as I really don't fancy spending over ten minutes walking the dimly lit streets of Stoke to get to my car when I come back from London).

No its still accessible, there is works happening at present to install barriers on Platform 2 that will be operational early in the new year but at present direct access to the car park is the same as before.

- Has direct access to the taxi rank and bus stops on platform one now been blocked off?

If you mean the metal gate at the northern end of Platform 1 yes that gate has now been locked. Several would be fare dodgers have gone to have a look at it anyway though.

It's amazing in 2015 we are celebrating ticket barriers installed at Stoke on Trent which will hopefully cut down on fare Dodgers. If it's anything like Loughborough , where the barriers are not always in operation, then the regular Dodgers will soon suss out when it is safe to travel. This will be down to having sufficient staff, which is not always the case at times. Fare Dodging in my opinion is akin to theft BUT how many of us have travelled say over 100 miles without having our tickets checked? It's surprisingly happened to me on a number of occasions often having a change of trains on route. Technology has its role to play but Government has a role to play here with both educating society and protecting tax payers who rarely travel by train.
We need to increase the odds of having your ticket checked or indeed having the opportunity to purchase tickets on board where applicable. This will cost money but you would think it would be self funding in the long run.

I agree that no matter how hard people try there will always be someone who travels without a ticket.

A lot of it is about time though, many people who were traveling without tickets from Stoke-on-Trent and Macclesfield weren't young Chavs, students or people you would expect to dodge fares I would say at least a half of them were well dressed, middle aged, middle class people who worked in Manchester and knew they could get away without paying.

Even if these type of fare dodgers find out a time when the barriers are open its unlikely to be at the time the are commuting (mostly 7-9 in the morning and 4-7 at night) so in any case stopping the people who fare dodge day in day out is a step in the right direction. Saying that since Virgin Trains have introduced regular revenue blocks at Manchester Piccadilly several people who I knew were fare dodging have suddenly decided not to take the train in the morning. I can't say I miss them as I don't like standing when I know someone who isn't paying has a seat and I doubt Virgin Trains misses them either.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Have they been able to find a location and installed enough gates which means a backlog of passengers will not form in the underpass or on the concourse?

I assume the experts have done their calculations and risk assessments, but I foresee people queuing up the stairs (whilst those ahead fumble for tickets, get bleeped at because their ticket is refused etc.) when a Cross-Country or Virgin service from the south sheds its load.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

- Has direct access to the taxi rank and bus stops on platform one now been blocked off?

Apparently so, which is unfortunate. When travelling from Manchester, being in the cattle class end of the train, it was a much quicker route to the bus stop. The taxi drivers (proper hackney carriages), who pay VT for the privilege of using the rank, will not be happy! I foresee more parked immediately outside the station entrance, clogging up the road and causing traffic chaos - as the private hire drivers do currently.

As for the Longton students, £2.20 per day is cheaper than the bus at £2.00 each way (£4.00 day ticket so no saving). Or they could buy a season ticket and save even more. Then again, many of them could do with the exercise, and it is only a 40 minute walk.

A ticket machine could be placed at Longton either under the bridge (thus serving both platforms at equal distance and out of the rain) or by the car park ticket machine. Hopefully it would occasionally work, unlike the car park machine which never seems to!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes there are staff who can sell tickets on the platform side of the barriers.

The problem is 80 students piling off the EMT services, which arrive from opposite directions simultaneously. Not always their fault that they cannot buy a ticket on the train on the day. Of course, once they start having to pay every day (rather than say 4 out of 10 journeys per week), they may work out that a season ticket is cheaper. Thus being able to bypass and queues on arrival at Stoke, increasing EMT revenue, and proving demand for the service as current poor revenue collection means poor loadings based on ticket data.

 

[crehld]

Yes there are staff who can sell tickets on the platform side of the barriers.

No its still accessible, there is works happening at present to install barriers on Platform 2 that will be operational early in the new year but at present direct access to the car park is the same as before.

Goodo. It's really not a nice walk in the evenings!

If you mean the metal gate at the northern end of Platform 1 yes that gate has now been locked. Several would be fare dodgers have gone to have a look at it anyway though.

Apparently so, which is unfortunate. When travelling from Manchester, being in the cattle class end of the train, it was a much quicker route to the bus stop. The taxi drivers (proper hackney carriages), who pay VT for the privilege of using the rank, will not be happy! I foresee more parked immediately outside the station entrance, clogging up the road and causing traffic chaos - as the private hire drivers do currently.

Yes, I think the taxi drivers will be annoyed. They're rank is effectively obscured from view now and it will probably cost them business. Hopefully now the entrance closest to the bus stops has been closed the Stoke-on-Trent City Council might see fit to relocate the bus stop to a more prominent position to encourage bus usage (I'm not holding my breath).

I agree that no matter how hard people try there will always be someone who travels without a ticket.

Indeed. Barriers are often presented as the cure for fare evasion. That couldn't be further from the truth.

A lot of it is about time though, many people who were traveling without tickets from Stoke-on-Trent and Macclesfield weren't young Chavs, students or people you would expect to dodge fares I would say at least a half of them were well dressed, middle aged, middle class people who worked in Manchester and knew they could get away without paying.

This confirms my observations. Indeed I note that in general the younger passengers are quite contentious about paying up, whereas an alarming number of older (30+) passengers aren't. And for every gobby chav there is at least one OAP who presents their bus pass, knowing full well it won't be accepted! I think it's time we stopped collectively pretending fare evasion is only carried out by the younger generation as that couldn't be further from the truth.

Even if these type of fare dodgers find out a time when the barriers are open its unlikely to be at the time the are commuting (mostly 7-9 in the morning and 4-7 at night) so in any case stopping the people who fare dodge day in day out is a step in the right direction. Saying that since Virgin Trains have introduced regular revenue blocks at Manchester Piccadilly several people who I knew were fare dodging have suddenly decided not to take the train in the morning. I can't say I miss them as I don't like standing when I know someone who isn't paying has a seat and I doubt Virgin Trains misses them either.

I wonder how they're getting to work?

I assume the experts have done their calculations and risk assessments, but I foresee people queuing up the stairs (whilst those ahead fumble for tickets, get bleeped at because their ticket is refused etc.) when a Cross-Country or Virgin service from the south sheds its load.

I hope the experts have done their calculations as the subway is quite cramped, although if Crewe is anything to go by they'll simply open the gate when a queue down the stairs starts forming.

The problem is 80 students piling off the EMT services, which arrive from opposite directions simultaneously. Not always their fault that they cannot buy a ticket on the train on the day. Of course, once they start having to pay every day (rather than say 4 out of 10 journeys per week), they may work out that a season ticket is cheaper. Thus being able to bypass and queues on arrival at Stoke, increasing EMT revenue, and proving demand for the service as current poor revenue collection means poor loadings based on ticket data.

Excellent point. This is an issue on many lines where a lack of passenger numbers according to the official statistics is used as an excuse not to invest additional resources, neglecting the fact those statistics are based on ticket sales and therefore not accurate.

It's amazing in 2015 we are celebrating ticket barriers installed at Stoke on Trent which will hopefully cut down on fare Dodgers. If it's anything like Loughborough , where the barriers are not always in operation, then the regular Dodgers will soon suss out when it is safe to travel. This will be down to having sufficient staff, which is not always the case at times. Fare Dodging in my opinion is akin to theft BUT how many of us have travelled say over 100 miles without having our tickets checked? It's surprisingly happened to me on a number of occasions often having a change of trains on route. Technology has its role to play but Government has a role to play here with both educating society and protecting tax payers who rarely travel by train.

You are assuming here that the barriers' primary purpose is to combat fare evasion. It is not. They have only been installed because Virgin's franchise agreement says they must be installed.

We need to increase the odds of having your ticket checked or indeed having the opportunity to purchase tickets on board where applicable. This will cost money but you would think it would be self funding in the long run.

Agreed.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Hopefully now the entrance closest to the bus stops has been closed the Stoke-on-Trent City Council might see fit to relocate the bus stop to a more prominent position to encourage bus usage (I'm not holding my breath).

Alas, the council moved the bus stop further away from the station entrance a few years ago - in order to create a better environment in the, admittedly attractive, Winton Square outside the station entrance. They never had the balls to close the road to traffic (with or without buses) though. Of course they did it in the middle of winter, left the old bus shelter where it was and didn't provide a new shelter at the new location for months! I do wonder when the real-time information screen will cease being 'on test' as it has been for the past few years.

 

[CC 72100]

Indeed. Barriers are often presented as the cure for fare evasion. That couldn't be further from the truth.

Ok, so in your view what is the purpose of barriers?

If they are the 'cure' (they're not), and the reality is far further from it, do they make it worse in your view?

Barriers will not get rid of fare evasion, but are a response to the fact that you cannot effectively check long 11 coach trains in 35 minutes with two stops inbetween. It just isn't going to happen.

So you reach a stage whereby you have to try and do something whilst not having excessive costs; hence the use of barriers.

Very much part of the solution, but, as I'm sure even their biggest fans would admit, not the ultimate one.

 

[crehld]

Ok, so in your view what is the purpose of barriers?

If they are the 'cure' (they're not), and the reality is far further from it, do they make it worse in your view?

I can only reply by echoing your own words!

Barriers will not get rid of fare evasion, but are a response to the fact that you cannot effectively check long 11 coach trains in 35 minutes with two stops inbetween. It just isn't going to happen.

So you reach a stage whereby you have to try and do something whilst not having excessive costs; hence the use of barriers.

Very much part of the solution, but, as I'm sure even their biggest fans would admit, not the ultimate one.

Barriers are often presented as a miricle cure for fare evasion, but in reality they cannot be relied upon in isolation (e.g. they do not detect short faring, and there is always a way around them for those that are that way inclined). As a previous poster said, I'd like to see their use combined with additional ticket examiners on trains, which would be a much more effective strategy. On board revenue checks are, at present (and especially on Virgin) sporadic at best.

 

[CC 72100]

Barriers are often presented as a miricle cure for fare evasion, but in reality they cannot be relied upon in isolation (e.g. they do not detect short faring, and there is always a way around them for those that are that way inclined). As a previous poster said, I'd like to see their use combined with additional ticket examiners on trains, which would be a much more effective strategy. On board revenue checks are, at present (and especially on Virgin) sporadic at best.

I can't disagree with any of the above, however your mention of the 'cure/and not being further from the truth' gave the impression that they have no impact whatsoever.

Long trains with short travelling times is going to make checks difficult, which is why barriers certainly make sense. Employ and diagram an additional ticket examiner per train and you still have someone who you're asking to go through 5 coaches between two stops in say 12 - 15 minutes or so. It's just not going to happen.

Barrier key stations and then do a revenue sting with 4 RPIs every now and again though to pick up on the short farers would probably work out cheaper.