Edinburgh - Tweedbank Kids Go Free

[mountainmonkey]

I have recently taken 2 kids on the Borders line for a weekend trip; we travelled Edinburgh Waverley (EDB) to Tweedbank (TWB) using ScotRail's Kids Go Free offer.

EDB - TWB Kids Go Free is effectively an Off-Peak Day Return priced £11.20. Kids Go Free is not available as Singles so a weekend return trip requires buying two return tickets, one for each day, and discarding the unused return portions; total trip cost £22.40.

However I have now discovered that the Kids Go Free ticket from South Gyle (SGL) - TWB, changing at Edinburgh, is effectively an Off-Peak (Open) Return valid for return within one month, and it costs only £11.40.

Would it be permitted to use an SGL-TWB ticket for the EDB-TWB journey, just so as to make use of the Open Return?

The terms of Kids Go Free state that "You cannot break your journey other than for connectional purposes", but this doesn't say anything explicit about starting / stopping short at intermediate stations.

I've read various other threads on here about travelling short but I'm not clear what applies in this case.

Cheers for any help!

 

[najaB]

Would it be permitted to use an SGL-TWB ticket for the EDB-TWB journey, just so as to make use of the Open Return?

Looking at the ticket, the restriction code seems to be 8F. This allows break of journey, and I can't see any restriction against starting short.

 

[mountainmonkey]

Thanks for the reply.

Looking at the ticket, the restriction code seems to be 8F. This allows break of journey, and I can't see any restriction against starting short.

But...

Can I break up my journey with a Kids Go Free ticket?
No. You cannot break your journey other than for connectional purposes.

Ticket restrictions
BREAK OF JOURNEY
[...]
Customers cannot break their journey other than for connectional purposes.

Is it OK to ignore ScotRail's advertised restrictions because I now know better?

On a practical level, the only evidence that we'd not travelled in from SGL would be not having our tickets marked, not putting them through the gatelines coming off the west-facing platforms at Waverley and our time of travel might not correlate with an incoming Fife train - none of which would be likely to bother a busy conductor on the Borders line...?

 

[najaB]

Is it OK to ignore ScotRail's advertised restrictions because I now know better?

Hmm... a good one as Condition 16 of the NRCoC says that you can break your journey/start short at any station unless there is a restriction on the ticket, and that in those cases the ticket seller must tell you when you buy your ticket. But in this case the website advises you of a restriction that doesn't actually exist (based on the restriction code on the ticket). My take is that the restriction code would take precedence if there was a dispute.

On a practical level, the only evidence that we'd not travelled in from SGL would be not having our tickets marked, not putting them through the gatelines coming off the west-facing platforms at Waverley and our time of travel might not correlate with an incoming Fife train - none of which would be likely to bother a busy conductor on the Borders line...?

I think fewer than 1% of guards would even notice (they would have no way to know what barrier the ticket has/has not been through), and even fewer would care.

 

[Romilly]

Surely it stands to reason that amazing offers (Kids Go Free means that one adult and 2 children travel at half price) will come with restrictions. The tickets may even say "See restrictions".

Given that, a Kids Go Free Offpeak Return from South Gyle to Tweedbank is not a risk-free ticket for the OP. The risk of being caught out may be low (how likely is a weekend Revenue block at South Gyle - not very, perhaps, but maybe likelier now this thread is in the public domain), but the consequences if caught out (potential for criminal prosecution, setting a bad example for young people) could be very high.

One unquestionably valid ticket for the OP would be one adult, plus 2 child, offpeak returns from South Gyle to Tweedbank with a Family & Friends Railcard at a total of £11.85 which is just an extra 45p (admittedly there is also the initial outlay for the railcard if not already purchased for other journeys).

On a more general note, there are journeys in Scotland where the F&F railcard is better value than Kids Go Free (e.g. journeys for 2 adults and 1 child).

 

[najaB]

Surely it stands to reason that amazing offers (Kids Go Free means that one adult and 2 children travel at half price) will come with restrictions. The tickets may even say "See restrictions".

I agree. However, the actual restriction code on the ticket is 8F (at least according to BRFares) and that doesn't place a restriction on BoJ (and doesn't even apply at the weekend at all).

 

[Romilly]

But the ticket will also mention Kids Go Free, in much the same way that a railcard-discounted ticket will mention the railcard discount, and it must at least be arguable that the reference to the discount is sufficient to incorporate the terms and conditions of the discount.

 

[najaB]

But the ticket will also mention Kids Go Free, in much the same way that a railcard-discounted ticket will mention the railcard discount, and it must at least be arguable that the reference to the discount is sufficient to incorporate the terms and conditions of the discount.

I can see your point - and I agree that restrictions are meant to apply - but it's not clear to me that they can be enforced. It would be a lot clearer if they used a restriction code that specifically prohibited BoJ and starting short.

 

[Kilted_Scot]

As a Scotrail guard I can say no one will bother if you buy the south gyle ticket. As long as you have a ticket.

 

[clagmonster]

I think fewer than 1% of guards would even notice (they would have no way to know what barrier the ticket has/has not been through), and even fewer would care.

I believe that a guard could swipe the ticket in their Avantix machine to determine when and if the ticket last passed through a ticket barrier. Although that wouldn't prove that the passenger hadn't travelled on a train from South Gyle that arrived at one of the unbarriered platforms.

The ticket will also show when and where is was printed, so I suppose a very keen gripper could notice if it was issued at Waverley with insufficient time to get to South Gyle and back.

I would say that the possibility of anybody looking at either of these is remote. I would also say, from what has been said about Scottish law in the past, that in the highly unlikely event that this were to be detected and deemed unlikely, I really can't see the procurator fiscal allowing a prosecution to proceed.

 

[mountainmonkey]

I believe that a guard could swipe the ticket in their Avantix machine to determine when and if the ticket last passed through a ticket barrier. Although that wouldn't prove that the passenger hadn't travelled on a train from South Gyle that arrived at one of the unbarriered platforms.

Or I could pay a tiny bit more for a Musselburgh to Tweedbank ticket at £12.20, which would have no barriers to go through (or rather, not go through).

One unquestionably valid ticket for the OP would be one adult, plus 2 child, offpeak returns from South Gyle to Tweedbank with a Family & Friends Railcard at a total of £11.85 which is just an extra 45p (admittedly there is also the initial outlay for the railcard if not already purchased for other journeys).

That's a really good point.

Leaving the Kids Go Free offer aside, the prices are quite interesting and the extra 20p from South Gyle for flexibility is well worth knowing about.

SGL-TWB Off-Peak Open Return £11.40
EDB-TWB Off-Peak Day Return £11.20
EDB-TWB Anytime Day Single £10.00 (the only Single sold)

Similar savings for Galashiels at £11.00 / £10.40 / £9.30

The same prices are valid in reverse i.e. for Borderers doing a multi-day trip to Edinburgh.

It seems pretty arbitrary that no Open returns are available at all from Edinburgh on the Borders line, but buying a ticket from one stop away (except Haymarket) on any other line makes them available for a tiny increase in price.

In fact what's even sillier is that the cheapest Single for Edinburgh-Tweedbank is 89% of the cost of the cheapest Return.

 

[me123]

Given that, a Kids Go Free Offpeak Return from South Gyle to Tweedbank is not a risk-free ticket for the OP. The risk of being caught out may be low (how likely is a weekend Revenue block at South Gyle - not very, perhaps, but maybe likelier now this thread is in the public domain), but the consequences if caught out (potential for criminal prosecution, setting a bad example for young people) could be very high.

Let's calm down a bit. As has been said before, the chances of anyone picking up on this would be vanishingly miniscule. The consequences on Scotrail are also negligible - the worst that would likely happen in Scotland is you being asked to buy a new ticket (or, in this case, three new tickets).

If mountainmonkey was to travel to Tweedbank with his children from Edinburgh with the ticket from South Gyle, there is practically no way of anyone knowing that he hadn't made the journey, except perhaps for the few occasions where Tweedbank trains start in Fife and run right through (not an issue at weekends). Whilst the OP would technically be in breach of the rules, the onus would be on Scotrail to prove that he hadn't travelled from South Gyle. And that would be very difficult to do. In reality, the guard would look at the ticket and assume that you were previously on a train from South Gyle and move on.

As for Scotrail monitoring this forum and setting up revenue protection at South Gyle in order to catch someone not boarding a train there in order to save £11... that isn't happening.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I believe that a guard could swipe the ticket in their Avantix machine to determine when and if the ticket last passed through a ticket barrier. Although that wouldn't prove that the passenger hadn't travelled on a train from South Gyle that arrived at one of the unbarriered platforms.

The ticket will also show when and where is was printed, so I suppose a very keen gripper could notice if it was issued at Waverley with insufficient time to get to South Gyle and back.

Probably better to buy (and collect) a ticket in advance to be on the safe side there. Barriers are irrelevant - Fife Circle trains frequently arrive on Platforms 1, 2, 19 or 20; where there are no barriers. Even if it does arrive on a barriered platform, you could easily say that the ticket didn't work and you just showed the ticket to the man at the gate who let you through. Happens all the time.

The depth of investigation Scotrail would need to go into to prove that the OP had not travelled from South Gyle would be relatively extensive for the sake of £11. No one sane would deem this worthwhile. The OP is perfectly safe using this ticket combination - but I'd say buy in advance, as it isn't entirely legitimate.

 

[dcd]

A slightly different point. Do you need to take a kid - it says up to 2 but 0 is up to 2 isn't it.

 

[Romilly]

A slightly different point. Do you need to take a kid - it says up to 2 but 0 is up to 2 isn't it.

If this is about Kids Go Free, the offer doesn't affect the price paid by the adults so, if there are no children in the party, you just buy adult tickets for the adults at the normal adult price.

If this is about using a Family & Friends railcard, the answer is "Yes and at least one child in the group must have a child ticket". The terms & conditions of the railcard do say, however, that if the only child is under 5 (and would therefore normally travel free) you can meet the obligation to have one child with a ticket by buying a ticket for the under-5.

 

[dcd]

If this is about Kids Go Free, the offer doesn't affect the price paid by the adults so, if there are no children in the party, you just buy adult tickets for the adults at the normal adult price.

If this is about using a Family & Friends railcard, the answer is "Yes and at least one child in the group must have a child ticket". The terms & conditions of the railcard do say, however, that if the only child is under 5 (and would therefore normally travel free) you can meet the obligation to have one child with a ticket by buying a ticket for the under-5.

Thanks it was the former - so I do not have to find some kids from somewhere when I go.

 

[mountainmonkey]

For the Kids Go Free offer I remember reading a term that says that you can travel without children - for example using a return ticket to take kids somewhere on the train and drop them off (or go somewhere to collect them).

However I am pretty sure if no kids are involved at all, you will get the same price by using an ordinary return ticket - without the restrictions on breaking your journey!