Any benefit to joining the railways in a non-driver position first?

[Sussexdrummer]

Hi all,

I'm in my early 40's and have got bitten by that 'screw the office, I want a new career as a train driver' bug.

I can see that its a long process. Im also getting the impression that theres still a lot of internal recruitment going on.

Ive been invited to an assessment for a 'Rail Operator 2' with South West. It would be a 50% drop in salary compared to what Im used to.

Is it worthwhile / advantageous to get into a TOC in any capacity to help get a job as a driver, or doesn't it matter? Would I be better off sticking with the office jobs as I go through the rejection (sorry selection) process?

Thanks!

 

[Aivilo]

Personally I would say getting on is the first step and any firsthand experience will always bode well

 

[scott118]

The role of being a driver, doesn't suit everyone. The role of a driver has many pro's and con's. The same can be said for being a conductor, a booking clerk blah blah...

Driver applications, have a failure rate of about 94%, so good luck with your decision, on which career path to take..

 

[Mowgli]

Hi SuusexDrummer,

I'm in a similar situation to you (and of similar age) and I am accepting a non-driver job in a control room at a new depot - although I don't have to suffer the significant salary drop!
I think it makes sense to "get in the door" I've applied for driver jobs but they are incredibly difficult to get, as you know, and I can't see that getting easier. Hopefully being internal will give an advantage - and get you used to shift work.

 

[Shaggy]

I work on the railway in a non-driver job with no interest of becoming a driver (yes there are a few of us).

Certainly in my TOC the success rate for internals seems to be pretty high. Far higher than if they were off the street but this could be my TOC only.

 

[notadriver]

Absolutely worthwhile. If there are any jobs they will get advertised internally first so you'll have an advantage over external applicants. Also the managers will know who you are hopefully for all the right reasons.

 

[Dave1987]

Out of the last 10 people accepted for driving jobs at my depot only 3 were externals.................. think that goes some way to answering you question.

 

[185]

Yep. Get through the door.

 

[Sussexdrummer]

Many thanks everyone. Pretty unanimous then.

I have applied for a train driver job with First, and have just noticed they posted a vacancy for a conductor today, which is 10k more (after training) than the Railway Operator job and its nearer to where I live.

Would it be detrimental to my driver application with First if I also apply for the conduct position?

Thanks

 

[coxxy]

Yes...

Firstly vacancies are advertised internally and generlly if they can fill internally they will...
Secondly you get noticed, you get to know the right people to speak to and question..
Thirdly the industry as a whole is a good industry to work for!

I have personally lost count of how many cleaning staff I know that have moved on to driving, conductor and fitters... all of which went from a 16k a year job to at least 27k so a 16k cleaners job with tough shifts may not sound appetising but can easily be used as a stepping stong.

 

[greatkingrat]

Being an internal applicant will help your chances, but there is still no guarantee. All it will do is get you through the initial sift, then you have to take the same assessments as anyone else.

So if you are going to be taking a large pay cut you need to be sure the job you are applying for is something you would be happy doing long term, even if train driving doesn't work out.

 

[387star]

Bear in mind internal can mean the railway as a whole for example crosscountry tms probably have to apply for fgw etc if they want to go driving

I am soon to start as a trainee train driver but it will be the third toc I have worked for

I started permanent nights with two days off every five weeks cleaning toilets and stations as well as de-icing in winter with a company van as well as dispatch and assisting the attach/detach process and instructing drivers etc... A secondary part of the job was working in a cash office taking money from conductors and preparing advantix machines as well as fault diagnosis

That experience helped get me my guard job although it was with another toc as i failed my interview with the existing toc.. I was actually very shy at this time in my life so that didn't help!

Then got my guard job and in the pool for a driving job but no job has arisen since december ! I don't think my score was that bad it is more the immense size of the pool and probably loads have the same scores!

So starting with gtr which to be fair take on more externals than most tocs probably because they are doo with no guards applying? Just guessing

Internal worked for me joined the railways nov 2011 so a year and a half platforms then just under two years as a fully fledged guard now going driving

 

[Spankthemonkey]

The only reasons TOC's hire externally for trainee drivers is because either a) they have no internal progression route due to being DOO or b) they don't fancy the increased cost of promoting a guard internally as they face the cost of training this promoted guard's replacement.

 

[atochopefull]

Does anyone know anything about a Customer Service Inspectors role? What the job involves? Is it purely station based? Shift hours? Supervising others and how much it pays??!! Any info greatly appreciated.

 

[donpoku]

Does anyone know anything about a Customer Service Inspectors role? What the job involves? Is it purely station based? Shift hours? Supervising others and how much it pays??!! Any info greatly appreciated.

Which toc is it for?

 

[E&W Lucas]

Your chances of success as a direct applicant, certainly for London commuter work, depend on your transferable skills. If you already have what's needed, go for the job directly.

I'd say there's no need to go through the internal route, where you're applying. I started a thread on driver background a year or two back, and the majority of us that responded had actually gone into the grade directly.

Do some research as to what skills are required. If you have them, go fir it!

 

[atochopefull]

Which toc is it for?

Chiltern Railways, but iguess all tocs have similar roles?

 

[scott118]

There is also a train of thought, no pun intended, that some internal applicants, aren't successful, due to the fact that the void that they leave behind, is far more difficult to fill, upon promotion...

 

[E&W Lucas]

You also sadly see something else. "Internals" who think progression to driver should be their right, and resentment towards those who come in directly, without having "served their time", as some would perceive it. Evident on this board from time to time.

In reality, the training programme does not require any railway experience. There are plenty of applicants out there, who have all the skills and life experience to attain the job directly, provided that a vacancy exists. Such people won't worry about the other 90 or so applicants for each position. They will know how to apply and nail it.

 

[Joof]

Bear in mind internal can mean the railway as a whole for example crosscountry tms probably have to apply for fgw etc if they want to go driving

I am soon to start as a trainee train driver but it will be the third toc I have worked for

I started permanent nights with two days off every five weeks cleaning toilets and stations as well as de-icing in winter with a company van as well as dispatch and assisting the attach/detach process and instructing drivers etc... A secondary part of the job was working in a cash office taking money from conductors and preparing advantix machines as well as fault diagnosis

That experience helped get me my guard job although it was with another toc as i failed my interview with the existing toc.. I was actually very shy at this time in my life so that didn't help!

Then got my guard job and in the pool for a driving job but no job has arisen since december ! I don't think my score was that bad it is more the immense size of the pool and probably loads have the same scores!

So starting with gtr which to be fair take on more externals than most tocs probably because they are doo with no guards applying? Just guessing

Internal worked for me joined the railways nov 2011 so a year and a half platforms then just under two years as a fully fledged guard now going driving

You worked 5 weeks solid and then got 2 days off???? This was the shift pattern for that job?????? Hmmmmm that sounds slightly extreme

 

[387star]

Well.i had one night off a week sometimes two but never back to back so.not really a day off but yeah was extreme

 

[LETHLFH]

Some TOCs offer jobs internally first and prioritise internal applications. For example if an interview pass mark was 50/100, an external candidate scored 100/100, an internal candidate scored 51/100 then the job would be offered to the internal candidate.

 

[KT530]

The only reasons TOC's hire externally for trainee drivers is because either a) they have no internal progression route due to being DOO or b) they don't fancy the increased cost of promoting a guard internally as they face the cost of training this promoted guard's replacement.

... or they realise the value of taking on external candidates with certain skills sets. Not all guards would make good drivers.

 

[Mattmatt]

I came into the railway via the Conductors role from the off the street; which took around 12 months to get in! once in there's plenty of internal jobs that never go out to the public - In saying that - It took a couple of go's at getting into the drivers seat - the amount of internals wanting to go driving is just as intense as it is when it goes out to the public. I found it helped with the training to have a good grasp of the rules beforehand as the training with Northern (whom im with) comes thick and fast & is the most intense in the industry - so we're told - as it's 6 months in training school even before you get on depot and in the seat! - but then it's full on once you get with your instructor too - it can take up to 12+months to pass out - basically you need to write off that year & concentrate on it all.

 

[notadriver]

Great post mattmatt.

 

[Sussexdrummer]

Thanks for everyones input so far, its much appreciated.

How long does it take on average to go from trainee salary to the full salary? Im assuming in MattMatt's case, it was 12 months?

 

[GB]

How long does it take on average to go from trainee salary to the full salary? Im assuming in MattMatt's case, it was 12 months?

Depends on the company but most have staggered pay increases for 2 or 3 years before you are on the full salary.

For example you maybe on a training wage for the duration of your training, then once passed out and on your first productive turn could be 80% of full salary, second year 90% then on third year you will hit the 100% salary.

 

[mw1967]

Some TOCs offer jobs internally first and prioritise internal applications. For example if an interview pass mark was 50/100, an external candidate scored 100/100, an internal candidate scored 51/100 then the job would be offered to the internal candidate.

Although I know vacancies are sometimes advertised internally first, that's a huge conclusion you're jumping to in terms of internal being prioritised over external applications. Do you have specific experience of this? It sounds more rumour mill than factual. If any candidate had a poor pass (such as 51%) I doubt they'd be offered a role nevermind given it ahead of a better candidate.

 

[notadriver]

Yes I've seen driver vacancies advertised internally and not externally.

 

[LETHLFH]

Yes I do have specific knowledge of this altthough I prefer not to disclose the source or TOC. The figure of 51% is irrelevent as those were figures I plucked out of the air. The bottom line is with at least one TOC I am 100% sure of and others I have heard whispers about if an internal candidate scrapes through interview and assessments they will be offered the position over any external candidate.