Incident I witnessesed yesterday evening

[ian959]

I disgree that the NRCoC needs updating in this regard. There is a danger that if it was updated then additional duties could be unreasonably placed on the passenger and this would be unfair. It would be all too easy to include a statement placing the onus on the customer to walk through a train to find the guard. This would be unfair. As the current NRCoC do not state that such an action is required then it means that any claims by an RPI that the customer should have done this is already unfounded and without any basis. It is already clear in the current documentation that the customer does not have a duty to do this.

So you are against making things even clearer? How odd, when you are always saying that things should be simple and clearer. If the NRCOC says that a passenger is NOT or IS required to seek out the guard on the train how much room for doubt is there? NONE. So update the NRCOC and introduce the absolute clarity and thus simplicity that everyone seems to suggest is needed in the whole ticketing/NRCOC area.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Read what I said - but to make it clear to those who have comprehension issues, to remove any doubt the NRCOC needs to be updated to STATE CLEARLY what the passenger is expected to do - that is either INCLUDE or EXCLUDE the need to seek out the guard. That then removes ANY doubt and that makes it CLEAR to RPIs what is expected of a passenger boarding at an unmanned station.

This, a million times over.

 

[bb21]

The NRCoC will very very unlikely be updated to include an obligation on the passenger to walk through the train to find the guard, for the simple reason that there are plenty of situations where this would not be possible for reasons such as train length, overcrowding, etc.

Bear in mind that this is a general document applicable to situations nationwide, I cannot see this realistically happening. It will open a whole can of worms and even though I am not confident in the DfT's competency in upholding passenger rights, I cannot see them agreeing to it.

 

[najaB]

So you are against making things even clearer? How odd, when you are always saying that things should be simple and clearer. If the NRCOC says that a passenger is NOT or IS required to seek out the guard on the train how much room for doubt is there? NONE.

There is no way the onus can be put onto the passenger as there are too many circumstances where it would not be physically possible to seek out the guard. The issue is not the NRCoC but rather with the training/supervision of RPIs. It doesn't matter what is in the rule book if people make up their own rules - how many times have we heard that apparently some RPIs believe their rules 'trump' the NRCoC?

 

[Shempz]

The NRCoC will very very unlikely be updated to include an obligation on the passenger to walk through the train to find the guard, for the simple reason that there are plenty of situations where this would not be possible for reasons such as train length, overcrowding, etc.

...not to mention, a passenger may have luggage they do not wish to leave unattended for any period of time.

 

[tony6499]

It would be interesting to know the FULL facts of what happened here rather than just all the guess work ? Was she a regular who tried it on etc ?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

...not to mention, a passenger may have luggage they do not wish to leave unattended for any period of time.

And if the train is DOO where there is no guard (but not applicable in this case)

 

[talldave]

Surely any potential changes to NRCOC are academic, since I would guess that 99.999% of passengers know nothing about them?

Any change would have no impact on actual passenger behaviour, it would simply change the advice they received once they arrived at this forum?

 

[swt_passenger]

Surely any potential changes to NRCOC are academic, since I would guess that 99.999% of passengers know nothing about them?

Isn't this proposed amendment to NRCofC more to do with a similar percentage of revenue staff being supposed to know everything about them?

 

[Chrisgr31]

In my opinion the issue with all of these cases where someone boards a train in an area where you can and should buy a ticket before you travel but as there are no barriers there is nothing to stop you boarding without a ticket is the inconsistency.

Every day without exception there are people on my train to London buying a ticket and nothing is said. However if one day the RPIs are on board they could quite happily issue all these people with a penalty fare.

The issue doesn't happen as much in reverse as London, Croydon, Oxted have barriers.

I have no doubt that this happens elsewhere so the result is that it appears to passengers that you can just get on the train and buy a ticket from the guard. So it's no surprise that people board trains without a ticket.

The only problem is of course is that the less honest also know this and therefore deliberately don't buy a ticket hence why we have penalty fares.

However if a Penalty Fare area is to work correctly everyone who has not bought a ticket or Permit to Travel should be charged the Penalty Fare.

 

[Antman]

In my opinion the issue with all of these cases where someone boards a train in an area where you can and should buy a ticket before you travel but as there are no barriers there is nothing to stop you boarding without a ticket is the inconsistency.

Every day without exception there are people on my train to London buying a ticket and nothing is said. However if one day the RPIs are on board they could quite happily issue all these people with a penalty fare.

The issue doesn't happen as much in reverse as London, Croydon, Oxted have barriers.

I have no doubt that this happens elsewhere so the result is that it appears to passengers that you can just get on the train and buy a ticket from the guard. So it's no surprise that people board trains without a ticket.

The only problem is of course is that the less honest also know this and therefore deliberately don't buy a ticket hence why we have penalty fares.

However if a Penalty Fare area is to work correctly everyone who has not bought a ticket or Permit to Travel should be charged the Penalty Fare.

I don't disagree in principal with your final point but in this case there are no facilities at Kemsing to buy a ticket or permit.

 

[talldave]

Isn't this proposed amendment to NRCofC more to do with a similar percentage of revenue staff being supposed to know everything about them?

Oh possibly so. I'm a cynic who doesn't believe the railway is capable of changing it's longstanding "make it up as you go along" approach.

 

[yorkie]

However if a Penalty Fare area is to work correctly everyone who has not bought a ticket or Permit to Travel should be charged the Penalty Fare.

The penalty fare rules say otherwise.

 

[Chrisgr31]

The penalty fare rules say otherwise.

and that is why there are so many threads on here about people who were unable to buy a ticket, or thought they could get one from the conductor etc

 

[Starmill]

Then they should not be surprised if they are required to pay a Penalty Fare should they decide to travel.

Why? Things other than coins are accepted payment methods :roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Read what I said - but to make it clear to those who have comprehension issues, to remove any doubt the NRCOC needs to be updated to STATE CLEARLY what the passenger is expected to do - that is either INCLUDE or EXCLUDE the need to seek out the guard. That then removes ANY doubt and that makes it CLEAR to RPIs what is expected of a passenger boarding at an unmanned station.

Rather irrelevant - seperate policy issue and you haven't either presented any evidence as to why a change should be made or suggested what to. Writing in all caps like that is typically percived as shouting too, so don't be so forceful with what you're jabbering on about unless you're sure.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This, a million times over.

No, it's nonsense. How much more clear can it be what you're supposed to do? Buy a ticket as soon as you can. The problem is the industry failing to facilitate that. It isn't the NRCoC and it absolutely isn't the passengers. Both of you seriously need some perspective.

 

[sarahj]

In my opinion the issue with all of these cases where someone boards a train in an area where you can and should buy a ticket before you travel but as there are no barriers there is nothing to stop you boarding without a ticket is the inconsistency.

Every day without exception there are people on my train to London buying a ticket and nothing is said. However if one day the RPIs are on board they could quite happily issue all these people with a penalty fare.

The issue doesn't happen as much in reverse as London, Croydon, Oxted have barriers.

I have no doubt that this happens elsewhere so the result is that it appears to passengers that you can just get on the train and buy a ticket from the guard. So it's no surprise that people board trains without a ticket.

The only problem is of course is that the less honest also know this and therefore deliberately don't buy a ticket hence why we have penalty fares.

However if a Penalty Fare area is to work correctly everyone who has not bought a ticket or Permit to Travel should be charged the Penalty Fare.

As someone who sells tickets on a train, you become wary of telling passengers buying that they should have bought before hand. You get either the 'the train was just arriving', to 'I dont like using the machines' or 'the ticket office was shut' or sometimes abuse and shouting about crappy service and personal insults.

On another odd side to it, we are monitored on ticket sales and such like, when in fact is, if everybody followed the rules we would only sell the odd ticket here and there. On a Sat morning, folks heading to london and such seem to buy their tickets before hand and you can check 12 coaches and sell nothing, other times and routes you can go through and sell so many you dont get through a train. On some routes, passengers board and all come up and buy that you end up with a queue of folks, other routes they sit down and you have to find them. sometimes the posher the route, the more you have to go and find them!!! they are too posh to use a ticket machine and as for queuing at a ticket office, pah!!.:roll:

 

[Antman]

As someone who sells tickets on a train, you become wary of telling passengers buying that they should have bought before hand. You get either the 'the train was just arriving', to 'I dont like using the machines' or 'the ticket office was shut' or sometimes abuse and shouting about crappy service and personal insults.

On another odd side to it, we are monitored on ticket sales and such like, when in fact is, if everybody followed the rules we would only sell the odd ticket here and there. On a Sat morning, folks heading to london and such seem to buy their tickets before hand and you can check 12 coaches and sell nothing, other times and routes you can go through and sell so many you dont get through a train. On some routes, passengers board and all come up and buy that you end up with a queue of folks, other routes they sit down and you have to find them. sometimes the posher the route, the more you have to go and find them!!! they are too posh to use a ticket machine and as for queuing at a ticket office, pah!!.:roll:

On some routes just jumping on and buying a ticket from the guard seems to be standard practice, on the Medway Valley line for example where most stations only have a permit to travel machine which few people seem to use, it only takes coins anyway. In the morning peak there are often two staff members selling tickets on the three car train as obviously one would never get to everybody in time.

Apparently a new ticket machine has been installed at Barming which only takes card payments, so what do those wanting to pay cash do other than travel without a ticket and pay at their destination?

 

[Bletchleyite]

LM's machines are all card only, and the policy is indeed that cash may be paid on board or at the destination. ISTR a poster here got this in religion from them.

 

[yorkie]

Apparently a new ticket machine has been installed at Barming which only takes card payments, so what do those wanting to pay cash do other than travel without a ticket and pay at their destination?

Cash is an accepted payment method (and I can't see that changing in the forseeable future!) so they pay at the first opportunity. This may be on the train or at their destination.

 

[Chrisgr31]

As someone who sells tickets on a train, you become wary of telling passengers buying that they should have bought before hand. You get either the 'the train was just arriving', to 'I dont like using the machines' or 'the ticket office was shut' or sometimes abuse and shouting about crappy service and personal insults.

On another odd side to it, we are monitored on ticket sales and such like, when in fact is, if everybody followed the rules we would only sell the odd ticket here and there.

The fact that you are monitored on ticket sales is exactly my point because as you say you should only occasionally be issuing tickets. I accept that as a member of staff on your own you don't necessarily want to be telling passengers that they should have bought tickets beforehand etc, however it does mean that when they are stopped be Revenue Protection Inspector they are going to be aggrieved and in my opinion understandably so.

The rules may say you need to buy a ticket in advance but if it isn't enforced no one will know.

 

[Deerfold]

LM's machines are all card only, and the policy is indeed that cash may be paid on board or at the destination. ISTR a poster here got this in religion from them.

I know some people have strong views on this issue, but I didn't realise there were deities involved.