Collapse of the bulk load freight business ?

[RichmondCommu]

By the same token, Anglo Scottish rail traffic competes with the M1 and M6. Felixstowe traffic competes with the A14. There must be some scope for rail in the south west

However quite a bit of the Scottish bound intermodal is running beyond the end of the motor way and of course the distance traveled is greater than it would be down to the South West which also helps its cause.

From Felixstowe there must enough be containers carried along with the distance traveled to make it worth while for the FOC's. I'm guessing here that the potential market in say Greater Manchester is higher than it is in the whole of the South West combined.

 

[Carlisle]

Carbon costs for the most part. It's cheaper to close the station as you would never make a return on the investment for carbon capture and storage systems.

But only a few years ago companies were planning to construct some new replacement 'clean coal' power stations at places like Kingsnorth etc

 

[muddythefish]

However quite a bit of the Scottish bound intermodal is running beyond the end of the motor way and of course the distance traveled is greater than it would be down to the South West which also helps its cause.

From Felixstowe there must enough be containers carried along with the distance traveled to make it worth while for the FOC's. I'm guessing here that the potential market in say Greater Manchester is higher than it is in the whole of the South West combined.

According to wonderful wiki, the population of the south west (Gloucestershire, Bristol, Wiltshire, Somerset, Dorset, Devon, Cornwall) is 5.34 million while Scotland is 5.29m, so they're very similar in terms of market size.

It still doesn't make sense therefore that the south west generates so little traffic - there must be potential for some expansion.

 

[najaB]

But only a few years ago companies were planning to construct some new replacement 'clean coal' power stations at places like Kingsnorth etc

I'm not able to check just now, but wasn't 'clean' in that sense talking about sulphur dioxide?

Edit: It was actually easier to find than I thought it would be. The Kingsnorth power station proposed a 20% reduction in CO2 levels. Cleaner, but not really that clean in the grand scheme of things.

 

[RichmondCommu]

According to wonderful wiki, the population of the south west (Gloucestershire, Bristol, Wiltshire, Somerset, Dorset, Devon, Cornwall) is 5.34 million while Scotland is 5.29m, so they're very similar in terms of market size.

It still doesn't make sense therefore that the south west generates so little traffic - there must be potential for some expansion.

If you assume that Bristol is by far and away the biggest city / conurbation in the area the chances are the distance traveled and the competition from the M4 doesn't make it worth while for the FOC's. The same would also surely apply to Bath. There is a service from Daventry to Wentloog in Cardiff but of course the distance is greater.

Assuming that you discount Bristol do the likes of Plymouth and Exeter have enough potential business to justify running an intermodal service? And after those two citys you start to run out of large settlements that are off the motorway network and can put enough business in the direction of the FOC's.

 

[muddythefish]

If you assume that Bristol is by far and away the biggest city / conurbation in the area the chances are the distance traveled and the competition from the M4 doesn't make it worth while for the FOC's. The same would also surely apply to Bath. There is a service from Daventry to Wentloog in Cardiff but of course the distance is greater.

Assuming that you discount Bristol do the likes of Plymouth and Exeter have enough potential business to justify running an intermodal service? And after those two citys you start to run out of large settlements that are off the motorway network and can put enough business in the direction of the FOC's.

Ok. I'll try again.

Why does a large city such as Bristol (pop 450,000) generate very little intermodal traffic (does the wineliner still run?) when Manchester and Leeds (similar populations in terms of the city) and surrounded by more motorways than Bristol, do ?

And surely Cornwall (population 530,000 plus) and Devon (population 1.1 million plus) have enough people to generate enough rail traffic and merit an intermodal hub in each county ?

Mind you, the same could be said for Sheffield, Nottingham and Derby.

My guess is for the FOCs is they're all too difficult and they can't be bothered to fight for the traffic.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Ok. I'll try again.

Why does a large city such as Bristol (pop 450,000) generate very little intermodal traffic (does the wineliner still run?) when Manchester and Leeds (similar populations in terms of the city) and surrounded by more motorways than Bristol, do ?

The conurbations that surround Leeds and Manchester are much greater in terms of population (and therefore potential available market share) than Bristol and so present a far larger market for the FOC's.

Someone recently stated on here that the wineliner still but I don't know where it runs from which may have some significance.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And surely Cornwall (population 530,000 plus) and Devon (population 1.1 million plus) have enough people to generate enough rail traffic and merit an intermodal hub in each county ?

However would you be able to fill an entire train like you can to Inverness and Aberdeen? Are there enough Tesco / ASDA supermarkets to fill a train to Cornwall? Or Devon for that matter?

 

[Domh245]

Why does a large city such as Bristol (pop 450,000) generate very little intermodal traffic (does the wineliner still run?) when Manchester and Leeds (similar populations in terms of the city) and surrounded by more motorways than Bristol, do?

I am guessing that the fact Bristol is situated very close to a significant body of water (and container port) a lot of stuff arrives through that. Compare to Manchester and Leeds which don't have a significant body of water on which to build ports.

 

[muddythefish]

The conurbations that surround Leeds and Manchester are much greater in terms of population (and therefore potential available market share) than Bristol and so present a far larger market for the FOC's.

However would you be able to fill an entire train like you can to Inverness and Aberdeen? Are there enough Tesco / ASDA supermarkets to fill a train to Cornwall? Or Devon for that matter?

The population of the Bristol region is much bigger of course - probably around the 750,000 mark.

Inverness has a population of 72,000 (yes 72,000) and Aberdeen 230,000 - both significantly smaller than Cornwall and Devon.

My point is valid - Devon and Cornwall are big enough markets and remote enough in terms of rail mileage to have viable intermodal rail traffic.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Mind you, the sahme could be said for Sheffield, Nottingham and Derby.

Ah, now here's an interesting one. There is a purpose built rail served intermodal terminal at Castle Donington that opened a few years a go and hasn't seen a single train to date. That would be ideal for Nottingham and Derby but as I understand it none of the local companies have shown the slightest interest in using it.

Another rail served freight terminal has opened on the site of the old Tinsley marshaling yard. And yet the only trains to use it have been carrying aggregates.

The one glimmer of hope is an new intermodal service that runs to and from Rotherham. The service is operated by DBS but I don't know where it runs to or how frequent the service is.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The population of the Bristol region is much bigger of course - probably around the 750,000 mark.

Even at 750,000 its nothing like the size of Greater Manchester or for that matter West Yorkshire.

 

[muddythefish]

Even at 750,000 its nothing like the size of Greater Manchester or for that matter West Yorkshire.

Inverness 72,000 - how many trains a day - at least 2 or 3?

Therefore, Bristol with 750,000 should be doing 10 times better but has 1 if you're lucky.

With coal traffic in its death throes and steel declining, the FOCs need to try much harder.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Inverness has a population of 72,000 (yes 72,000) and Aberdeen 230,000 - both significantly smaller than Cornwall and Devon.

My point is valid - Devon and Cornwall are big enough markets and remote enough in terms of rail mileage to have viable intermodal rail traffic.

In which case why hasn't Eddie Stobbart shown an interest in running services to Exeter and Plymouth like he has to Inverness?

As I previously stated Sainsbury's by all accounts at some point showed an interest in running services to Exeter but eventually nothing came it. Is that because they found it cheaper to transport their groceries by road?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Inverness 72,000 - how many trains a day - at least 2 or 3?

Therefore, Bristol with 750,000 should be doing 10 times better but has 1 if you're lucky.

The FOCs aren't trying hard enough.

So you agree that West Yorkshire and Greater Manchester can offer far greater returns for a FOC which is what this is all about?

Those containers heading to Inverness are not just for Inverness, they'll be heading to all directions across the Highlands won't they? And again the distance traveled to Inverness and the state of the road network in the Highlands make it a much better bet for the FOC's.

 

[muddythefish]

In which case why hasn't Eddie Stobbart shown an interest in running services to Exeter and Plymouth like he has to Inverness?

As I previously stated Sainsbury's by all accounts at some point showed an interest in running services to Exeter but eventually nothing came it. Is that because they found it cheaper to transport their groceries by road?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


So you agree that West Yorkshire and Greater Manchester can offer far greater returns for a FOC which is what this is all about?

Those containers heading to Inverness are not just for Inverness, they'll be heading to all directions across the Highlands won't they? And again the distance traveled to Inverness and the state of the road network in the Highlands make it a much better bet for the FOC's.

What this is all about is the decline of coal and steel traffic and the need to replace it with intermodal, and the fact there are large, populous areas of the country, a long way from the main markets, that are not served by rail.

The argument you make for Inverness applies equally to Devon and Cornwall.

My contention is the FOCs need to work harder at attracting traffic beyond their current core routes.

 

[Bald Rick]

What this is all about is the decline of coal and steel traffic and the need to replace it with intermodal, and the fact there are large, populous areas of the country, a long way from the main markets, that are not served by rail.

The argument you make for Inverness applies equally to Devon and Cornwall.

My contention is the FOCs need to work harder at attracting traffic beyond their current core routes.

Go and work for them then, sounds like you could do a better job!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Exactly.
I suppose the answer is because the electricity industry is privatised and it's all about profit rather than capacity. Also we have a load of dumb ass politicians who are stupid enough to believe the country can run on wind power and don't understand that the lights will go out sooner rather than later.
But we digress!......

That's what nuclear is for.

 

[swissrailpassion]

Freight is doing well at the moment. There are 80 trains per week more than last year. Biomass will yield more movements. Liverpool docks will be sending 10 trainloads per day via Hebden Bridge to Drax from January.

 

[Radedamer]

Ok. I'll try again.

(does the wineliner still run?)

Googling the term finds several recent youtube clips. eg https://youtu.be/sgJqDLS9OnM


As for intermodal traffic – what exactly is defined as intermodal? I understood it to refer, usually, to containerised goods transferred from one mode of transport to another. There are certainly trains of containers coming out of Avonmouth docks (and they've certainly come off ships!)

 

[Emblematic]

Probably some of our electricity originates from Lithuania. That country generates far more electrons than it eats due to having been used as a repository for nuclear stations back in Soviet days.

That information is a decade out of date. Lithuania used to export power to it's Baltic neighbours, but the EU forced it to close down the RBMK reactors at Ignalina as a condition of membership. Lithuania now imports some 60% of its electricity.

 

[Murph]

That information is a decade out of date. Lithuania used to export power to it's Baltic neighbours, but the EU forced it to close down the RBMK reactors at Ignalina as a condition of membership. Lithuania now imports some 60% of its electricity.

For reference, the RBMK reactor is the same flawed design as the one which exploded at Chernobyl. The Lithuanian units were second generation, larger, and retrofitted with additional safety after the Chernobyl disaster, but still had some of the fundamental design issues.

Just for context, to explain the quite reasonable desire to force them to be decommissioned.

 

[Radedamer]

Thanks for the info!

 

[tbtc]

At the moment, there are a lot of freight paths that aren't used daily or even weekly.

Regarding the seismic changes in some industries, how long do freight paths remain "valid" for?

For example, if a Steelworks/ Pit/ Power Station closes down, how long does that path remain? Could a TOC apply to take that at the next timetable change that comes up for renegotiation?

e.g. if (after Redcar, Scunthorpe, Motherwell) we see and end to steel production in Rotherham, would the paths of freight services from Aldwarke remain on the books for many years to come (unused, sure, but still notionally available)?

Or are there paths still scheduled in the timetables for Steelworks/ Pits/ Power Stations that have closed years ago?

Why does a large city such as Bristol (pop 450,000) generate very little intermodal traffic (does the wineliner still run?) when Manchester and Leeds (similar populations in terms of the city) and surrounded by more motorways than Bristol, do ?

And surely Cornwall (population 530,000 plus) and Devon (population 1.1 million plus) have enough people to generate enough rail traffic and merit an intermodal hub in each county ?

According to wonderful wiki, the population of the south west (Gloucestershire, Bristol, Wiltshire, Somerset, Dorset, Devon, Cornwall) is 5.34 million while Scotland is 5.29m, so they're very similar in terms of market size.

It still doesn't make sense therefore that the south west generates so little traffic - there must be potential for some expansion.

It makest sense to me.

Scotland is essentially two places for freight purposes:

• The Central Belt has fairly high density of population, maybe three and a half million people - it has power stations/ steel mills etc too. It's far enough from the populated bits of England to make it worth sticking dozens of containers on a train (e.g. Daventry to Mossend).

• Inverness/ Aberdeen have lower populations, but being so much further away, the economics of rail are relatively favourable. It's not worth putting freight onto a train and back off again over short distances (the Aldwarke - Stocksbridge steel service aside!) - but if you are going all the way up to Inverness then the "cost" of putting it onto the rails and taking it off again become less significant. Plus the (partly) single carriageway A9 (dangerous/ twisting road over the hills) makes lorries less attractive.

Bristol really isn't that far from the densely populated bits of England, so unless you have something pretty specialist (Aldwarke steel...), the economics of rail are less attractive.

Cornwall is further away, but the biggest place in Cornwall (St Austell) is only half the size of Inverness.

Mind you, the same could be said for Sheffield, Nottingham and Derby

Derby and Nottingham are a bit more like Bristol - not far enough away from other bits of England to make freight so attractive (unless you're doing specialist stuff to power stations/ steel works etc). You won't tempt Eddie Stobart to swap lorries for trains over such short distances.

 

[eslcma]

There's a lot of talk about Cornwall / Devon for intermodal? Where are the terminals to deliver this other than Bristol?

The terminals would need to be economic and one train a day likely wouldn't cut it.

 

[RichmondCommu]

What this is all about is the decline of coal and steel traffic and the need to replace it with intermodal, and the fact there are large, populous areas of the country, a long way from the main markets, that are not served by rail.

The argument you make for Inverness applies equally to Devon and Cornwall.

My contention is the FOCs need to work harder at attracting traffic beyond their current core routes.

The feeling I get is that the FOC's are actually doing quite well at that sort of thing. Two examples immediately come to mind:

The transport of logs from Ribblehead that had been felled on Cam Fell and the two wagons of gravel that are being carted on the back of a Freightliner service from Southampton to Scotland. On the face of it both services were unlikely to happen but the FOC's made it work.

 

[Greybeard33]

Freight is doing well at the moment. There are 80 trains per week more than last year. Biomass will yield more movements. Liverpool docks will be sending 10 trainloads per day via Hebden Bridge to Drax from January.

The GBRf Liverpool to Drax trains started this week - see http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=2344203#post2344203

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The GBRf Liverpool to Drax trains started this week - see http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=2344203#post2344203

You have just beaten me to making note of this very matter, having once again read the other thread where this has been a point of thread discussion.

 

[HowardGWR]

The GBRf Liverpool to Drax trains started this week - see http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=2344203#post2344203

Thanks very much. I never read many of the forums here, as their titles look as though they are really for the spotters but clearly I am missing a lot.

 

[38Cto15E]

Do board members think that the Radlett Frieght Terminal will ever get off the ground?
Presumably if it does most of the Intermodals will run during the night.

 

[daccer]

I am surprised that terminals such as Castle Donnington, Telford and now Radlett continue to be built or proposed. The current railfreight model is overwhelmingly in favour of point to point block loads. The only real anomaly to this is port to container depots such as Wentloog and Trafford Park where the final leg utilises road transport. If you build a terminal in an area where the road leg is of any distance then it becomes cheaper to run the whole route by road. Terminal Handling charges are an issue as well as the long lead times for transhipment. I don't see where the traffic is going to come from to generate train loads of containers from a port for somewhere like Telford or Radlett.

If the terminal contains facilities for end users to locate there then this helps but again how many end users generate the need for a train load of anything nowadays. In days gone past less than trainload consignments would have been tripped to depots but those days are long gone. The demise of bulk freight means that railfreight needs to change but these new depots and facilities done seem to be the answer.

 

[DarloRich]

Inverness 72,000 - how many trains a day - at least 2 or 3?

Therefore, Bristol with 750,000 should be doing 10 times better but has 1 if you're lucky.

With coal traffic in its death throes and steel declining, the FOCs need to try much harder.

because it must be easier and cheaper for the freight shipping companies (not FOCS) to unload at the massive port at Bristol and distribute by road to the SW
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I am surprised that terminals such as Castle Donnington, Telford and now Radlett continue to be built or proposed.

Because the councils are much more likely to grant permission for a vast distribution centre IF it is rail connected

 

[D1009]

Inverness 72,000 - how many trains a day - at least 2 or 3?

Therefore, Bristol with 750,000 should be doing 10 times better but has 1 if you're lucky.

With coal traffic in its death throes and steel declining, the FOCs need to try much harder.

Actually Bristol has been consistently handling 2 trains a day from either Felixstowe, Tilbury or London Gateway for the last few weeks. The terminal was brought back into use for a specific flow and has limited capacity.