Refused access to Birmingham Lounge with York - Winchester ticket

[DerekC]

Don't often travel 1st class and was disappointed to be turned away from the Virgin lounge at New Street with a full fare ticket from York to Winchester. It occurs to me that if I had a ticket to Coventry (or even Birmingham International) they would have let me in because Virgin serves those stations. Where's the logic in that? I think that major interchange points like Birmingham should have a shared lounge with all TOCs contributing. No doubt when Virgin ran XC it wasn't a problem, but now it is.

 

[Brucey]

Don't often travel 1st class and was disappointed to be turned away from the Virgin lounge at New Street with a full fare ticket from York to Winchester. It occurs to me that if I had a ticket to Coventry (or even Birmingham International) they would have let me in because Virgin serves those stations. Where's the logic in that? I think that major interchange points like Birmingham should have a shared lounge with all TOCs contributing. No doubt when Virgin ran XC it wasn't a problem, but now it is.

Was the ticket Route '+Via London' or 'Via Oxford'? The London fare is valid on Virgin, so should permit entry to the lounge.

(In fact, even the Via Oxford would be valid on Virgin between BHM and BHI or COV).

 

[CheesyChips]

IMHO you haven't really missed out on much, I don't think the FC lounge at BHM is anything for Virgin to be proud of. Seems to be a lot of aesthetically pleasing furniture but impractical for business travellers.

Euston is nice, and Bham International is a good size.

 

[bb21]

Ah, did they ask you which train you were intending on getting?

 

[yorkie]

... It occurs to me that if I had a ticket to Coventry (or even Birmingham International) they would have let me in because Virgin serves those stations.....

Your ticket was valid that way (and you could be breaking your journey in somewhere like Coventry), so you should have been let in, in my opinion.

However if they asked you what trains you were planning to catch, and you said a CrossCountry service, I can sort of see why they decided you weren't a customer of theirs. I don't agree with that view, though.

 

[najaB]

However if they asked you what trains you were planning to catch, and you said a CrossCountry service, I can sort of see why they decided you weren't a customer of theirs. I don't agree with that view, though.

I know analogies don't always work but if you were flying from Heathrow to New York with BA would disagree with not being let into the Virgin Atlantic lounge - because they also fly the same route?

Lounges are a perk, not an entitlement.

 

[matt_world2004]

I know analogies don't always work but if you were flying from Heathrow to New York with BA would disagree with not being let into the Virgin Atlantic lounge - because they also fly the same route?

Lounges are a perk, not an entitlement.

However if the same ticket was valid on both ba and virgin Atlantic you would have a point.A proportion of that ticket pays for the lounge. As it is valid on both cross country and virgin services.

 

[najaB]

A proportion of that ticket pays for the lounge. As it is valid on both cross country and virgin services.

Well it does and it doesn't - AIUI Virgin pays the full cost of running the lounge and treats it as a marketing, rather than an operational cost. So so they get to choose who they want to let in or not.

 

[IanD]

Well it does and it doesn't - AIUI Virgin pays the full cost of running the lounge and treats it as a marketing, rather than an operational cost. So so they get to choose who they want to let in or not.

Where do they get the funds for marketing if not from ticket revenue?

 

[Tetchytyke]

I know analogies don't always work but if you were flying from Heathrow to New York with BA would disagree with not being let into the Virgin Atlantic lounge - because they also fly the same route?

If it was a codeshare then yes, I would disagree.

And if you have a walk-on ticket, it is the equivalent of a code-share- that ticket was valid for a journey on Virgin Trains from Birmingham New Street to Coventry.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What I do think they should do is make clear, on publicity and signage, which tickets they do accept, as it can be rather embarrassing to be turned away in front of others.

 

[najaB]

Where do they get the funds for marketing if not from ticket revenue?

Investors, cross-subsidisation from other operations, DfT payments, Network Rail payments. It's all accounting at the end of the day but the lounges are run at a loss to try and encourage customer loyalty to the Virgin brand - so they have the right to allow/deny access on whatever grounds they choose. You could argue that today's Cross-Country passenger is tomorrow's Virgin customer, and I'd agree, but they've decided to restrict access to customers actually travelling on Virgin's services.

Lounge access is a perk, not an entitlement.

 

[gray1404]

The point here is that for the ticket held, it was also valid on VT services thrugh BHM so they should have been allowed in. I was travelling from London to Liverpool on a first class ticket. Virgin didnt say "no you can't come in because you could also get on LM if you want too." So in the same way the OP should not be denied just because part of their journey can be done on both XC and VT.

What is concerning here is that it is because they OP was not traveling on a direct VT to VT route that most likely got the, turned away.

 

[najaB]

The point here is that for the ticket held, it was also valid on VT services thrugh BHM so they should have been allowed in.

Lounge access is a perk, not an entitlement.

 

[ian959]

What is concerning here is that it is because they OP was not traveling on a direct VT to VT route that most likely got the, turned away.

What is so concerning about it? Virgin lounge, Cross Country ticket, why would anyone expect to get access? Sorry, but Virgin provide the lounge for their passengers, not anyone elses...

As Naja keeps (rightly) pointing out the lounge is a perk not an entitlement. To get that perk, you have to travel on Virgin. Seems pretty simple. Now if people want to complain about why Cross Country don't provide lounge facilities OR arrange with Virgin to accept Cross Country passengers, then I would happily agree.

 

[IanD]

What is so concerning about it? Virgin lounge, Cross Country ticket, why would anyone expect to get access?

Because it wasn't a Cross Country ticket. It was a ticket valid on Virgin Trains from which they probably get a share of the revenue - which they use (along with other sources) to pay for the lounge.

 

[JB_B]

What is so concerning about it? Virgin lounge, Cross Country ticket, why would anyone expect to get access? Sorry, but Virgin provide the lounge for their passengers, not anyone elses...

Hmmm...The OP doens't give the full detail but I think that we can be sure wasn't travelling on a Cross Country ticket. Assuming that by "full fare" 1st he means non-advance/non-upgrade then there are no first class single/returns with operator specific restrictions - they're all "Any Permitted" or "Not London".

Therefore the OP could have entirely legitimately been travelling with Virgin for a portion of his journey [on Birmingham-Coventry at least]. (And Virgin will have received a (small) proportion of the revenue in accordance with whichever fare/flow model is used nowadays.)

It's not a big deal but it seems clear to me that they should have let the OP in ( perhaps the point is moot-ish if he was adamant that none of his journey was with VT.)

Interestingly, Virgin Trains EC make this very clear and simple on their site

"Access to our Lounges

Got one of the following tickets? You’re welcome in any of our Lounges:

Fully inter-available First Class Season Ticket (i.e. ticket needn’t be specific to one train company) ..."


I'm a little worried about about najaB's line of argument when he says this....

Well it does and it doesn't - AIUI Virgin pays the full cost of running the lounge and treats it as a marketing, rather than an operational cost. So so they get to choose who they want to let in or not.

... bit of a slippery slope that - I think the internal accounting procedures of an organization are irrelevant ( unless a restriction/derogaton forms part of the T&Cs).

 

[Bletchleyite]

West Coast's website just says:

All you need to do to get into our First Class lounges is show a valid Virgin Trains ticket – either Virgin Business, First Anytime or Advance First. For up to two hours before your outward journey, and up to one hour after you arrive, just make yourself at home (within reason, please).

https://www.virgintrains.co.uk/experience/first-class/lounges

It was a ticket valid on VT, so he should have been admitted.

The only ambiguity I can see is whether one can be admitted when changing trains rather than at the start or end.

 

[gray1404]

It keeps getting repeated a few times on here that lounge access is a perk and not an entitlment. That does not warrant a casual approach here or mean that it is not possible for a customer be to incorrectly told that can cannot enter. It is important that the approach is consistant. The point here is that for the ticket that the customer was traveling on, it was valid on VT services in and out of BHM and therefore they should have been granted access.

What concerns me it that lounge staff are so used to seeing tickets from VT to VT destinations e.g. Birmingham to Edinburgh, Birmingham to Euston that they wrongly deny access to customers traveling between other stations but whose tickets are still in fact valid on VT.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It keeps getting repeated a few times on here that lounge access is a perk and not an entitlment. That does not warrant a casual approach here or mean that it is not possible for a customer be to incorrectly told that can cannot enter.

I agree. It should be up to VT to set clearly-defined and understood criteria for admission. What those criteria are should not be up to individual lounge staff (unless it's things like "dressed suitably" which can't avoid being discretionary).

 

[gray1404]

I agree. It should be up to VT to set clearly-defined and understood criteria for admission. What those criteria are should not be up to individual lounge staff (unless it's things like "dressed suitably" which can't avoid being discretionary).

Thankfully they don't have "dressed suitaly". Can you imagine the trouble if they did.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thankfully they don't have "dressed suitaly". Can you imagine the trouble if they did.

Quite (I remember in around 2000 using the one at Euston dressed in proper scruff with a big rucksack having travelled half way across Europe, which was accepted gracefully once a ticket had been shown!)

OTOH, that kind of term, usually more specific e.g. no ripped clothes, vest tops or shorts, is not completely out of the ordinary at airport lounges.

 

[najaB]

That does not warrant a casual approach here or mean that it is not possible for a customer be to incorrectly told that can cannot enter.

Again, I point out that there is no right of access to a lounge. It's Virgin's lounge so they have sole discretion over who can come in, as long as their policy doesn't violate the Equality Act.

I'm pretty sure that being a Cross-Country ticket holder isn't a protected characteristic.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Again, I point out that there is no right of access to a lounge. It's Virgin's lounge so they have sole discretion over who can come in, as long as their policy doesn't violate the Equality Act.

I'm pretty sure that being a Cross-Country ticket holder isn't a protected characteristic.

The OP didn't hold a "Cross-Country ticket", did they? I thought they held a ticket valid for travel on VT.

VT can have whatever policy they like, and said policy is stated clearly on the link upthread, and would appear to include the OP.

 

[matt_world2004]

Well it does and it doesn't - AIUI Virgin pays the full cost of running the lounge and treats it as a marketing, rather than an operational cost. So so they get to choose who they want to let in or not.

Where do they get the revenue to pay for this "marketing cost" then, The magic money tree? or is a proportion of the ticket revenue that they recieve allocated to marketing?

 

[JB_B]

I'm pretty sure that being a Cross-Country ticket holder isn't a protected characteristic.

True.. but what makes you think the OP held a "Cross Country ticket" ?

 

[najaB]

VT can have whatever policy they like, and said policy is stated clearly on the link upthread, and would appear to include the OP.

No it doesn't - the policy says "a valid Virgin Trains ticket" rather than "a ticket valid on Virgin Trains".

 

[Jonfun]

Provided it wasn't a First Advance or First Off-Peak, and the OP didn't let slip that they weren't planning to use a Virgin Train, I don't see how they can argue that it isn't valid for entry into the lounge, really. Perhaps one for Virgin's Customer Relations?

 

[najaB]

Where do they get the revenue to pay for this "marketing cost" then, The magic money tree? or is a proportion of the ticket revenue that they recieve allocated to marketing?

As I said above, it will be a portion of all of their revenue. This includes ticket sales, but it also includes their retail activities, investor money, cross-subsidy from other operations, payments from the DfT and payments from Network Rail.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No it doesn't - the policy says "a valid Virgin Trains ticket" rather than "a ticket valid on Virgin Trains".

There is no such thing as "a valid Virgin Trains ticket", except for Advances and a very small number of VT-only fares, of which none are relevant from New St in First Class. Therefore the only sensible interpretation is a ticket valid for travel on Virgin Trains, unless they are going to state explicitly which tickets may be excluded, for instance "a ticket valid for travel on Virgin Trains to Rugby, Milton Keynes Central, Watford Junction or London Euston", and/or "with the intention to travel on a specified Virgin Trains service", or even "a ticket where Virgin Trains set the fare".