My idea - re-opening lines in Central England ?

[billio]

Has anyone given thought to re-opening lines in Central England ?.

In particular I was thinking of the line from Market Harborough to Northampton. Although this line has virtually no centres of population to generate traffic, its usefulness would be linking towns and cities such as Derby, Nottingham, Leicester, Northampton, Milton Keynes and Oxford at a later date ?. With no stations on route it should be a pretty quick journey between the two end points.

Currently this line is almost entirely footpath plus a small section of heritage railway at the southern end.

There may be other routes which are currently closed but which might provide a service for journeys which must currently be undertaken by car.

 

[TheNewNo2]

Well Milton Keynes will be (more or less) on the new East/West Rail which will provide links onto the Midland Main Line at Bedford. Without any population centres en-route, I can't see a new line being approved.

 

[HowardGWR]

Isn't this an infrastructure topic?

 

[Pinza-C55]

It would be a great thing but sadly we have a history of governments who, beginning with Beeching , haven't given a toss about railways so it is unlikely to happen.

 

[swt_passenger]

It would be a great thing but sadly we have a history of governments who, beginning with Beeching , haven't given a toss about railways so it is unlikely to happen.

We have also had it proposed a good number of times in the past in other threads and I think the usual conclusion was that it wouldn't be happening. No point in re-opening everything people get excited about.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Has anyone given thought to re-opening lines in Central England ?.

In particular I was thinking of the line from Market Harborough to Northampton.

I am sure a lot of people have given thoughts to it - the real question should be, has anyone given money to it - even to fund a business case for it?

I think it is a real tragedy that not one of
a) Northampton - Wellingboro
b) Northampton - Mkt Harboro
c) Rugby - Leicester (Midland route)

has survived. (Rugby - Mkt Harboro I don't see of being much use, TBH).

If we could go back to 1960, I'd lobby to keep Northampton - Wellingboro - only a short stretch of track. Indeed, it is a pity that, as a condition for closing the GC, the government did not insist on keeping Aylesbury - MK - Northampton - Wellingboro - Corby - Nottingham as a secondary route.

If you take the Midland from St Pancras to Leicester, there used to be at least one east-west cross country route at every main station - Luton, Bedford, Wellingborough and Mkt harborough.

Only at Kettering could you go only east, not west. (though pretty poor route here, I confess).

And, as far as I remember, each time they closed a route, they helped justify it by saying something like eg : Passengers from Bedford to Northampton can still travel by changing at Wellinborough or Bletchley.

Except, of course, eventually it rather became "change at London or Leicester and Nuneaton" - both of which were pretty unrealistic in terms of distance.

Now there is only Bedford, with the branch west to Bletchley, and that only survived by the skin of its teeth.

 

[steamybrian]

If we could go back to 1960, I'd lobby to keep Northampton - Wellingboro - only a short stretch of track. Indeed, it is a pity that, as a condition for closing the GC, the government did not insist on keeping Aylesbury - MK - Northampton - Wellingboro - Corby - Nottingham as a secondary route.

....

Those present back in the 1960s were lobbying to keep many other lines open which have survived and here are a few from that area...
Bedford to Bletchley
Watford-St.Albans
Derby-Matlock
Even Peterborough to Leicester was mentioned in the Beeching report to be closed..!
Whilst others closed in the 1960s were subsequently reopened..
Coventry- Leamington Spa
Coventry to Nuneaton.
Nottingham-Mansfield-Worksop
Kettering-Corby, etc.
At the time "the car was king" and railways were a slowly declining industry.

 

[mr_jrt]

Given the size of Northampton the "service pattern" I think would have been quite useful to get passengers in from all directions would have been to extend the LM services from Northampton to Market Harborough, and Thameslink services from Bedford to Northampton (thence to Rugby?)

...that would probably give you the biggest improvements in connectivity for your money whilst keeping things simple. An interesting addendum would be to restore the line from MH to Stamford, thence on to Peterborough...

 

[Stampy]

How about putting a East - South (or South to East) chord back in at Manton Junction (between Stamford & Oakham)

 

[TheBigD]

How about putting a East - South (or South to East) chord back in at Manton Junction (between Stamford & Oakham)

Back in??? There wasn't one in the first place...

There was briefly talk in the early 1990's (possibly late 1980's) of a curve at Manton when the proposed Peterborough-Swindon service was being considered... A special did run over the route (reversing at Manton Jn) with a class 155 DMU but the project never came to fruition...

 

[Kettledrum]

improving rail connectivity in central England has a benefit to the economy in terms of making the labour force more mobile, and encouraging jobs and economic redevelopment etc. The big downside is that there is a cost to re-opening routes like those suggested.... and there is a shortage of rolling stock to run proper services on routes that are still in place (e.g Corby to Oakham and Derby to Stoke). Many existing XC trains are particularly crowded in central England so there is a demand there for certain through routes.

Build them and passengers will come?

Add extra coaches or services and they will soon get filled up?

 

[route:oxford]

when HS2 is built, build it as quad lines between Calvert and Brackley.

Standard - Standard - High - High

I think there was going to be a maintenance depot built there anyway, so there was going to be a spur off the HS2 to E-W anyway.

The cost of quadding will probably be only 50% more than double tracks.

That way Brackley rejoins the rail network with a route to one of the country's employment hot-spots and it evidences that HS2 is giving something back to middle-England

 

[muddythefish]

I am sure a lot of people have given thoughts to it - the real question should be, has anyone given money to it - even to fund a business case for it?

I think it is a real tragedy that not one of
a) Northampton - Wellingboro
b) Northampton - Mkt Harboro
c) Rugby - Leicester (Midland route)

th.

Northampton - Peterborough in its entirely would be very useful now. The population in the Nene valley has soared in the past 20 years.

 

[The Planner]

when HS2 is built, build it as quad lines between Calvert and Brackley.

Standard - Standard - High - High

Wouldn't quite work like that, they would be separate railways as they will be between Calvert and Quainton.

I think there was going to be a maintenance depot built there anyway, so there was going to be a spur off the HS2 to E-W anyway.

Nothing direct to E-W, it goes into the depot.

That way Brackley rejoins the rail network with a route to one of the country's employment hot-spots and it evidences that HS2 is giving something back to middle-England

Brackley rejoins the rail network and takes people away from Brackley surely (and only towards Aylesbury)? What is there jobs wise to draw people to Brackley?

 

[route:oxford]

Wouldn't quite work like that, they would be separate railways as they will be between Calvert and Quainton.

Then build them a little bit wider apart?

Nothing direct to E-W, it goes into the depot.

That's a shame.

Brackley rejoins the rail network and takes people away from Brackley surely (and only towards Aylesbury)? What is there jobs wise to draw people to Brackley?

Oh goodness no, there's practically no jobs in Aylesbury after the collapse of Equitable Life and the subsequent collapse of HBOS.

The draw would be a spur onto the E-W link at Calvert and onwards to Oxford. Thousands of people already commute daily from the Brackley area to Oxford - this would be helpful. Also property is affordable in Brackley by comparison to Oxford.

If HS2 had been a bit further West, I'd be suggesting Buckingham instead.

 

[dk1]

How about putting a East - South (or South to East) chord back in at Manton Junction (between Stamford & Oakham)

Ah that old chestnut. Bring back Regional Railways vision of a through Ipswich/Norwich-Swindon service.

 

[MP33]

Did one of the lines proposed for re opening, which finally closed to freight in the early 1980's. Have a tunnel with a very tight loading gauge, which would rule out a lot of rolling stock and also have the problem of full access in an emergency in the tunnel?

 

[The Planner]

Oh goodness no, there's practically no jobs in Aylesbury after the collapse of Equitable Life and the subsequent collapse of HBOS.

The draw would be a spur onto the E-W link at Calvert and onwards to Oxford. Thousands of people already commute daily from the Brackley area to Oxford - this would be helpful. Also property is affordable in Brackley by comparison to Oxford.

If HS2 had been a bit further West, I'd be suggesting Buckingham instead.

I was going to ask what the current flows of people are from Brackley, I imagined them to be more Northampton/Banbury/MK more so than Oxford even if the A43/M40 is a fast route. In terms of property anything is going to be more affordable than Oxford! I seriously struggle with the "we must re-open the GCR" thing, the route I would have protected is Banbury - Brackley - Buckingham - Verney Junction around there if anything.

 

[GazUk]

Has anyone given thought to re-opening lines in Central England ?.

In particular I was thinking of the line from Market Harborough to Northampton. Although this line has virtually no centres of population to generate traffic, its usefulness would be linking towns and cities such as Derby, Nottingham, Leicester, Northampton, Milton Keynes and Oxford at a later date ?. With no stations on route it should be a pretty quick journey between the two end points.

Currently this line is almost entirely footpath plus a small section of heritage railway at the southern end.

There may be other routes which are currently closed but which might provide a service for journeys which must currently be undertaken by car.

Hello There

I get about around the Market Harborough Area quite a bit, and yes alot of the old disused track beds are still there, but like Alot of towns in the last 20 years, Land that once had rail buildings and junctions on it have been built on,especiallly in Market Harborough town centre (There's a real massive retirement Home on St.mary's Rd where the Northampton & Rugby lines once ran into the station!).

I do find it strange though that the (lack of) local Rail links around that area (Leics/Northants) are pretty shocking, more so In Northamptonshire in regards to the fact that only 1 town in the county has a direct rail service Into Northampton!
And just for reference the stagecoach Bus (I think it's the X7) That goes From Leicester to Milton keynes Via Market Harborough,Brixworth & Northampton seems to be always Busy, and i bet buses from Kettering,Corby and Wellingborough are too.

 

[billio]

Hello There

I get about around the Market Harborough Area quite a bit, and yes alot of the old disused track beds are still there, but like Alot of towns in the last 20 years, Land that once had rail buildings and junctions on it have been built on,especiallly in Market Harborough town centre (There's a real massive retirement Home on St.mary's Rd where the Northampton & Rugby lines once ran into the station!).

I do find it strange though that the (lack of) local Rail links around that area (Leics/Northants) are pretty shocking, more so In Northamptonshire in regards to the fact that only 1 town in the county has a direct rail service Into Northampton!
And just for reference the stagecoach Bus (I think it's the X7) That goes From Leicester to Milton keynes Via Market Harborough,Brixworth & Northampton seems to be always Busy, and i bet buses from Kettering,Corby and Wellingborough are too.

I was wondering whether there would be any obstruction. On the OS Map it's looks as though a kilometre of new railway south of MH could provide a link to the MML.

The interesting thing about this link is that, I imagine, there would be no local demand for it, but, as a way if improving the overall network for major places further afield, it might be quite useful.

 

[Martin_1981]

Reopening the Great Central from Aylesbury-Brackley-Rugby-Leicester would have been my preference to HS2, giving Rugby and Leicester a second rail route to London. Connecting to the Cross Country route at Banbury would have enabled a direct North East- Southampton/Bournemouth XC service avoiding Birmingham and instead running Sheffield- Derby/Nottingham-Leicester-Rugby Central-Banbury-Oxford and so forth....

 

[PHILIPE]

I was wondering when yet another suggested Cross Country route would find it's way into this thread. The purpose of Cross Country is to go via Birmingham as a hub and not to avoid it.

 

[Morgsie]

Question but I am not sure if it is relevant to this thread, what about the reinstatement of the Buxton to Matlock line and possibly in-fill electrification once the MML electrification is completed?

 

[RichmondCommu]

It would be a great thing but sadly we have a history of governments who, beginning with Beeching , haven't given a toss about railways so it is unlikely to happen.

It's also fair to say that as people began to be able to afford to buy cars they too no longer gave a toss about the railways!
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Question but I am not sure if it is relevant to this thread, what about the reinstatement of the Buxton to Matlock line and possibly in-fill electrification once the MML electrification is completed?

Oh no what have you gone and done! Another forum member who couldn't resist opening Pandora's Box! There will never be the money for such a project and even if there was it would be pointless reopening the route from the site of Millersdale Junction to Buxton. The line would only run across to Peak Forest and then up to Chinley.

 

[Camden]

I don't think the lack of population centres between the two points is an issue (Mkt Harboro to Northampton), I think connecting these main lines is a worthwhile objective.

Market Harborough gaining access to the Northampton job market, but also creating journey opportunities such as Nottingham and Leicester to Northampton, which I'm sure would be valuable pursuits. You could achieve this by connecting Market Harborough or by connecting Northampton to Wellingborough.

I'd prefer to see the latter, as you could then also have a Northamptonshire "shuttle" running all the way down from Corby through Kettering and Wellingborough to Northampton. Undoubtedly massively beneficial. All through a few miles of relaid track and a few years of subsidy.

Get really ambitious and at the other end of the line add back the track between Corby and Peterborough, extend Thameslink all the way and and an area which up to now has really only faced down into London starts to look like a proper area in its own right, with the job markets in its three or four principal cities not just massively opened up, but also connected to each other.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Ah that old chestnut. Bring back Regional Railways vision of a through Ipswich/Norwich-Swindon service.

What's so terribly wrong with that idea, pray? (If the trackwork were in place, bar the Manton curve, that is). Agreed, more or less nobody would use it from end to end.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Northampton - Peterborough in its entirely would be very useful now. The population in the Nene valley has soared in the past 20 years.

I can believe you. I was just arguing for a less expensive option that 'might' have just been possible back in 1963.

Back on topic (sort of) - I believe when Northampton - M Harboro' closed, BR did indeed introduce some through trains from Northampton to Leicester via Wellingborough.

At least, one evening at Irthlingboro' in, I'd guess, 1961, I saw Jubilee 'Ajax' pass by and an older rail expert said it would have been on such a train.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I was wondering whether there would be any obstruction. On the OS Map it's looks as though a kilometre of new railway south of MH could provide a link to the MML.

The interesting thing about this link is that, I imagine, there would be no local demand for it, but, as a way if improving the overall network for major places further afield, it might be quite useful.

Before everyone gets carried away musing on any such possibilities, I'd suggest the eastern end of East-West Rail should be sorted out and under construction, at least.

 

[dk1]

What's so terribly wrong with that idea, pray? (If the trackwork were in place, bar the Manton curve, that is). Agreed, more or less nobody would use it from end to end.

Nothing wrong with it except it was ruled out on journey time for the indirect nature of the route & its value for money. No need to go all religious on us.

 

[Kettledrum]

East - West rail took a long time to get approved, and an awful lot of lobbying and the various stages of business cases etc. The political support came from a consortium of county councils who collaborated together to build up the pressure.

With some of the suggestions here, there are fewer councils to get involved. In some cases, only one (Northamptonshire County Council), and with some of the other routes (Perhaps Leicestershire, or perhaps Warwickshire), these routes are much low down their transport priority list. i.e. they have other routes to focus re-opening campaigns on.

One recent political change though is to encourage councils to put together bids for devolution monies, linked to economic growth. If councils are able to free up huge amounts of land for new houses and link this to a proposal to re-open a rail route, then it has a better chance of success.

Are Northamptonshire County Council interested?

 

[A0]

or by connecting Northampton to Wellingborough.

I'd prefer to see the latter, as you could then also have a Northamptonshire "shuttle" running all the way down from Corby through Kettering and Wellingborough to Northampton. Undoubtedly massively beneficial. All through a few miles of relaid track and a few years of subsidy.

Northampton - Wellingborough isn't going to come back - the trackbed all around London Road in Wellingborough is long gone and developed.

The reality is the traffic flow between Northampton & Wellingborough is nothing like enough to justify a rail reinstatement (and I live within 5 mins of the A45 so know the area very well).

The rail line didn't even come close to serving the one intermediate place of any size between those - Earls Barton - and for the record Earls Barton only has a population of about 6000.

It wouldn't be a "few years" of subsidy - a few decades as a conservative estimate and in reality it would probably always need a subsidy.

Get really ambitious and at the other end of the line add back the track between Corby and Peterborough, extend Thameslink all the way and and an area which up to now has really only faced down into London starts to look like a proper area in its own right, with the job markets in its three or four principal cities not just massively opened up, but also connected to each other.

FFS - Thameslink is a London commuter service from Bedford downwards - at a push it *might* justify extension to Corby which is also now London commuter belt - but to travel cross country from Peterboro' to Corby and then onto London - really? All to link Corby (popn 65k,) Kettering (popn 70k) and Wellingborough (popn 50k) to Peterboro ? - It makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[Bald Rick]

East - West rail took a long time to get approved, and an awful lot of lobbying and the various stages of business cases etc. The political support came from a consortium of county councils who collaborated together to build up the pressure.

... and committed to build 200,000 new houses in the corridor, the sale of which helps to pay for the new line. if Northants can come up with a similar proposal, Government may look upon it warmly.
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It wouldn't be a "few years" of subsidy - a few decades as a conservative estimate and in reality it would probably always need a subsidy.

Quite. There are only a few lines in the country that operate subsidy free; basically most long distance 'Intercity' routes to London, and most medium to long distance commuter routes to London (ie anything over 15-20 miles). Everything else loses cash, and they have the notable characteristic of already having the railway built.