Wootton Bassett junction SPAD (07/03/15) RAIB Update released

[Chris M]

I doubt you can properly manage 'zero hour' contract drivers competency. No rostered turns over certain lines and you would struggle to maintain route knowledge especially now that some TOCs refuse access unless you have something in writing or a route learning ticket or pass.

Would there be scope for a charter company to come to an arrangement with a TOC (or FOC) for this?

 

[najaB]

...it might just explain why they did what they did...

Disabled AWS/TPWS without coming to a stand and without contacting the signalman? As you said, unjustifiable.

 

[6Gman]

Back in the mid-90s I was involved in the manning of charter trains (including steam).

In every case involving steam:
The Driver would be experienced in steam working and familiar with the route (since he would use it as part of his normal duties)
The Fireman ditto
They would be accompanied by a Traction Inspector, fully qualified.

I am shocked by the implication that they can now be operated by "retired/ zero hour/ heritage line" drivers ...

Mind, I was shocked by the Report on the Stafford incident ...

 

[ainsworth74]

I am shocked by the implication that they can now be operated by "retired/ zero hour/ heritage line" drivers ...

Mind, I was shocked by the Report on the Stafford incident ...

Think that goes for all of us, even the members of the armchair expert brigade like myself!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Would there be scope for a charter company to come to an arrangement with a TOC (or FOC) for this?

I think I can see a problem or two with the unions over this?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

6 months or so, I think

6 months is the normal timeframe

Thanks, both. Presumably any modifications to track, not including like-for-like replacement of points etc., require all drivers to "re-learn" the route?

It does seem to make sense that the less a driver works a route, or works at all in the case of semi-retired drivers on zero-hour contracts, the more likely that driver is to make a mistake. Notwithstanding the fact that routinely disabling the AWS is clearly more than just an error.

 

[Crossover]

Thanks, both. Presumably any modifications to track, not including like-for-like replacement of points etc., require all drivers to "re-learn" the route?

It does seem to make sense that the less a driver works a route, or works at all in the case of semi-retired drivers on zero-hour contracts, the more likely that driver is to make a mistake. Notwithstanding the fact that routinely disabling the AWS is clearly more than just an error.

I'll allow someone with greater knowledge than I to reply definitively, but I don't think minor changes would require a full re-learn, possibly just a refresher or it may become part of the local notices (sorry, can't recall off hand the name of the daily notices)

 

[455driver]

I think I can see a problem or two with the unions over this?

No real problem as long as they have the required paperwork.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'll allow someone with greater knowledge than I to reply definitively, but I don't think minor changes would require a full re-learn, possibly just a refresher or it may become part of the local notices (sorry, can't recall off hand the name of the daily notices)

Late notice case, and you are correct, just an A4 brief will suffice.

 

[FordFocus]

Would there be scope for a charter company to come to an arrangement with a TOC (or FOC) for this?

Certainly I've heard of TOCs providing drivers to a FOC for the purposes of route conducting drivers for tampers and light locos but there could be issues of knowledge such as "put the brake in at the signal" which would be more than adequate for a 2 car DMU with good Westinghouse EP brakes that react instantly but no good for a loco and 12 coaches with slower vacuum brakes and would be too late, especially when approaching more complication junctions or signals. If something goes wrong e.g. a SPAD, the conductor driver would take a massive hit in a disciplinary.

I doubt unions would object, it's different work from the norm provided that the work is rostered fairly and correctly. It will also correctly apply with 'Hidden' regulations so no need for the ORR to worry about working time or fatigue issues.

 

[talltim]

​

Sorry but I'm afraid I cannot agree with that. If this was an isolated incident then I could accept that this might have been a rogue crew who were prepared to break the rules. But it would appear that isolating the AWS is a fairly common thing to happen or at least with this loco it is. Professionals would not be so blasé about isolating safety equipment and would certainly follow the correct procedures in doing so.

Ok, maybe I worded it badly. I was responding so someone who gave the impression that they were saying that they must be amateurs because it was a steam train. The Stafford incident shows that it is the type of person, not the type of motive power that is an issue here.

 

[TheEdge]

Was this incident included in the dossier that saw WCRC license suspended earlier this year? Or is there a chance this really could spell the death knell for WCRC?

 

[ainsworth74]

Was this incident included in the dossier that saw WCRC license suspended earlier this year? Or is there a chance this really could spell the death knell for WCRC?

No this was what got their license suspended.

 

[JoeGJ1984]

the TSR warning board was placed between the fixed AWS magnet for SN43 and the signal itself. The position of the portable AWS magnet and the TSR warning board did not meet the requirements relating to TSRs contained within the railway rule book and other Railway Group Standards.

I think the above was a contributory factor, and I think it would have been better if the TSR warning board (with a portable AWS magnet before it) was placed before the fixed AWS magnet for SN43. This means you get the AWS warning for the TSR, see the TSR warning board, then get the AWS warning for SN43 then see the yellow signal. It does seem like the 'interleaving' of the TSR warning board and its AWS magnet with the signal and its AWS magnet caused confusion and was therefore a contributory factor.

 

[ainsworth74]

I'm sure we discussed earlier in the thread that whilst it would be better for that to be the case the issue is the reaction of the footplate crew to failing to acknowledge an AWS warning in time.

 

[Dave1987]

I'm sure we discussed earlier in the thread that whilst it would be better for that to be the case the issue is the reaction of the footplate crew to failing to acknowledge an AWS warning in time.

Indeed this is exactly the point. I know plenty of drivers who have failed to cancel the AWS in time and have had a brake demand. Its no big deal at all as long as you follow due process and report it to the signaller.

The big issue here is the apparent attitude of the crews on this loco and possibly crews on heritage traction as a whole to the rules and procedures on the mainline (I say possibly as the RAIB has yet to report on whether these rule breaches are common place just on this loco or more widespread).

One thing we can all be sure of though is that once the full RAIB report is released the ORR will be giving the heritage mainline crews and management a 'buck up' order, which is would seem is not before time. Thank god no one was killed before all this came to light.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Indeed this is exactly the point. I know plenty of drivers who have failed to cancel the AWS in time and have had a brake demand. Its no big deal at all as long as you follow due process and report it to the signaller.

The big issue here is the apparent attitude of the crews on this loco and possibly crews on heritage traction as a whole to the rules and procedures on the mainline (I say possibly as the RAIB has yet to report on whether these rule breaches are common place just on this loco or more widespread).

One thing we can all be sure of though is that once the full RAIB report is released the ORR will be giving the heritage mainline crews and management a 'buck up' order, which is would seem is not before time. Thank god no one was killed before all this came to light.

Looking at the situation with a "glass half-full" mindset, your last paragraph does at least highlight the fact that the regulatory bodies have intervened in this instance to deal with issues as they become apparent. Whatever sanctions come about as a result will at least result in a safer railway for all concerned.

 

[infobleep]

I doubt you can properly manage 'zero hour' contract drivers competency. No rostered turns over certain lines and you would struggle to maintain route knowledge especially now that some TOCs refuse access unless you have something in writing or a route learning ticket or pass.

Surely they need as much route training as managers doing similar jobs on modern traction covering a strike :joke:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Certainly I've heard of TOCs providing drivers to a FOC for the purposes of route conducting drivers for tampers and light locos but there could be issues of knowledge such as "put the brake in at the signal" which would be more than adequate for a 2 car DMU with good Westinghouse EP brakes that react instantly but no good for a loco and 12 coaches with slower vacuum brakes and would be too late, especially when approaching more complication junctions or signals. If something goes wrong e.g. a SPAD, the conductor driver would take a massive hit in a disciplinary.

I doubt unions would object, it's different work from the norm provided that the work is rostered fairly and correctly. It will also correctly apply with 'Hidden' regulations so no need for the ORR to worry about working time or fatigue issues.

What does Hidden regulations mean?

 

[zuriblue]

Surely they need as much route training as managers doing similar jobs on modern traction covering a strike :joke:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What does Hidden regulations mean?

The regulations that came from the Hidden enquiry into the Clapham Junction crash.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clapham_Junction_rail_crash

 

[455driver]

The regulations that came from the Hidden enquiry into the Clapham Junction crash.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clapham_Junction_rail_crash

I always thought choosing a bloke called 'Hidden' to lead an enquiry was a bad idea!

 

[craigybagel]

What does Hidden regulations mean?

Though shalt not work more than 13 days in a row, nor shalt thou return to work less than 12 hours after thou hast last finished work. I believe they're technically only guidelines, but no reputable railway firm would dare let staff breach them.

I always thought choosing a bloke called 'Hidden' to lead an enquiry was a bad idea!

It's always fun saying to resources "can't do that job, I'm hidden!"

 

[snowball]

I always thought choosing a bloke called 'Hidden' to lead an enquiry was a bad idea!

It did lead to a book called 'Hidden Danger'.

 

[father_jack]

Though shalt not work more than 13 days in a row, nor shalt thou return to work less than 12 hours after thou hast last finished work. I believe they're technically only guidelines, but no reputable railway firm would dare let staff breach them.




It's always fun saying to resources "can't do that job, I'm hidden!"

The "hidden" we work by was only part of what Justice Hidden recommended.

 

[craigybagel]

The "hidden" we work by was only part of what Justice Hidden recommended.

Indeed. It's been a while since I read the report but didn't he also recommend nationwide ATP?

 

[Dave1987]

I believe heritage tractions days on the main line are numbered. Not just because of instances like this but also technology is going to outpace what you can retrofit to these locos. Can't see ERTMS being fitted to a steam loco. I heard there were many 'groups' struggling to find the cash to fit a GSMR radio let alone fitting ERTMS, and that's even if it could be fitted.

 

[Llanigraham]

The people who actually "worked" ERTMS worked out a way it could be made to work, but it needs a portable unit that "fits" into all the other systems.

 

[craigybagel]

The people who actually "worked" ERTMS worked out a way it could be made to work, but it needs a portable unit that "fits" into all the other systems.

It'd be nice if they could fix the Wooferton issue whilst they're at it!

I can't wait for more ERTMS fitted units to be let loose around the country, it'll be interesting to see if there are any more locations like that,and whether or not they can find a fix.

 

[Llanigraham]

It'd be nice if they could fix the Wooferton issue whilst they're at it!

I can't wait for more ERTMS fitted units to be let loose around the country, it'll be interesting to see if there are any more locations like that,and whether or not they can find a fix.

It's a bit of a joke, isn't it. Got used to the phone calls, "1W11 has stopped due for the usual reason!" And it was nearly always at the same time of day!!
Blame the radio masts and whatever "funny" was being broadcast at that time of night.