About 4 months ago I started a new job in a small village. I didn't drive at the time so had to get two buses and a train for over two hours. On the first day my boss took me to another office then dropped me off at the train station. I literally just checked the train times to my nearest station and jumped on the train expecting to pay the conductor. He never showed, three stops later I have to get off an then i'm stopped by the rail wardens or whatever they are called. I had to give my details in and had 21 days to pay the £4 fare. Over the next few weeks I literally did that much traveling on busses and trains I just forgot about it. I then received the fixed penalty notice of £60. I refused to pay £60 for a £4 fare...a fare I tried to pay when I was pulled aside. I have now been summoned to court, will end up with a criminal record for £4. Any advice from anybody?
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Court next week
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Erm, hope you don't loose too badly and only get a fine and not a criminal record. You've come here far far too late for any useful advice we can give.
The exact wording of the summons will tell us what you are up for and therefore what you might end up with but at this stage you are probably too late to avoid court unless you got very very lucky by offering a substantial out of court settlement (probably hundreds of pounds)
The exact wording of the summons will tell us what you are up for and therefore what you might end up with but at this stage you are probably too late to avoid court unless you got very very lucky by offering a substantial out of court settlement (probably hundreds of pounds)
185143
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Can't really help much with the legal side of things, but Northern have had someone in court for 10p before, so the railway really do take the 'But its only £x' attitude VERY seriously.
Sadly you've learnt that the hard way and I can understand why an average passenger may get onto the train, knowing that the conductor has a ticket machine and assume you can pay onboard.
(Before someone says it, I am aware that GC allow onboard purchase, but I assume this isn't relevant in this case?)
Sadly you've learnt that the hard way and I can understand why an average passenger may get onto the train, knowing that the conductor has a ticket machine and assume you can pay onboard.
(Before someone says it, I am aware that GC allow onboard purchase, but I assume this isn't relevant in this case?)
It may have been earlier, but at this stage it is unlikely to make any difference. For completeness, if the OP boarded at an unstaffed station then they did nothing wrong.
DaleCooper
Established Member
Didn't buy a ticket.
When given 21 days to pay £4 "forgot" about it.
Refused to pay fixed penalty notice.
Received summonses so now decided to worry about it.
Lesson - deal with problems at first opportunity, I'm sure that's what your new boss would expect.
When given 21 days to pay £4 "forgot" about it.
Refused to pay fixed penalty notice.
Received summonses so now decided to worry about it.
Lesson - deal with problems at first opportunity, I'm sure that's what your new boss would expect.
What does the summons say: which law does it quote? From which station did you travel?
You might still be able to settle this one without it being heard in court, but you'll need to pay various admin charges and costs now.
You might still be able to settle this one without it being heard in court, but you'll need to pay various admin charges and costs now.
bb21
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Immaterial in this case given that the OP was offered an additional opportunity to pay the fare after the journey, but failed to do so.
Agreed. That's why I said at this stage it wouldn't make a difference. This is yet another case of "If I ignore it, it will go away."
Except it didn't.
This thread gives some good advice on settling in court on the day; this post is particularly useful.
It sounds like you've avoided your obligations and that it's now too late to do anything else, but we could advise further with answers to furlong's questions above.
It sounds like you've avoided your obligations and that it's now too late to do anything else, but we could advise further with answers to furlong's questions above.
Islineclear3_1
Established Member
This might be too late now....
You passed an opportunity to pay at your origin station and you passed (forgot) a second opportunity to pay the £4 after 21 days.
You then decided/refused to pay the PF of £60 (for a £4 fare) which is understandable, but not from the railway's perspective. Because you did not pay, the railway has no option but to take you to court in order to recover their costs (short of "sending the boys round...")
Now you must attend court. Don't go by your principles and decide to not attend because you will be in much more trouble. Arrive early and ask to meet the proscecutor BEFORE the hearing to see if he/the TOC are amenable to a settlement (which will be a lot more than £60, and obviously a lot more than the original £4 fare)
Best not tell the boss...
You passed an opportunity to pay at your origin station and you passed (forgot) a second opportunity to pay the £4 after 21 days.
You then decided/refused to pay the PF of £60 (for a £4 fare) which is understandable, but not from the railway's perspective. Because you did not pay, the railway has no option but to take you to court in order to recover their costs (short of "sending the boys round...")
Now you must attend court. Don't go by your principles and decide to not attend because you will be in much more trouble. Arrive early and ask to meet the proscecutor BEFORE the hearing to see if he/the TOC are amenable to a settlement (which will be a lot more than £60, and obviously a lot more than the original £4 fare)
Best not tell the boss...
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Agree with you but for this point, the OP hasn't given enough info to know if this is the case.
Islineclear3_1
Established Member
The OP said "he literally checked the train times to his nearest station and then jumped on the train expecting to pay the conductor".
This presumes an intent to pay - but on the train. He does not give any indication of how long he had to wait for the train (which might, or might not have given him time to seek out ticket purchasing facilities in the meantime)
Of course, we still haven't heard from the OP either....
The rail wardens, or whatever they are called. Accepted that it was a genuine error and there was an intent to pay. They then gave the OP the opportunity to prove that intent. That didn't happen.
What surprises me is that 21 days were given to pay the fare. Why not simply accept payment for the £4 there and then. If there was an intent to pay then surely the OP had the money. Do "rail wardens" not accept payments ? Was the 21 days given because the OP lacked funds ?
As always I suspect some details are missing.
cjmillsnun
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Maybe they didn't have a working Avantix with them?
That sounds like they might have been given a UPFN (Unpaid Fares Notice) which is basically invoice for the travel undertaken but not yet paid for. So my guess would be that they gave the OP the benefit of the doubt and offered them the opportunity to pay the fare outstanding having failed to do this the TOC then decided to proceed to court action (in order to issue a UPFN your details will be taken which means failing to pay still leaves them the option of a prosecution).
As to why they might have gone down this road possibly the OP had a means to pay they couldn't deal with right then (card machine on the blink for instance) or they didn't have working issuing facilities or maybe they were just being kind!
In terms of intent if they were issued a UPFN then failing to pay that by the requested date I believe would be all that would be required to prove intent to avoid payment and therefore making a more serous RoRA S5 offence rather easy to bring and win.
If the OP is reading this I would urge them to get in touch with the relevant TOC as soon as possible. Be apologetic and offer to pay the fare outstanding and any admin costs they have incurred and they might, I stress might, be willing to agree to an out of court settlement.
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