Virgin Trains East Coast ticketing challenge

[najaB]

For a travel management company, you would think they would ensure their clients were not breaking the law. That is something very dodgy they are doing there...

I must say I was surprised by that as well, you would think that a travel management company would know the rules around break of journey/starting short on Advance tickets. I suggest the OP should be seeking to recover the cost of the additional ticket from Amex rather than VTEC.

 

[firefox18]

Correct, hence needing more info from the OP. Hopefully he'll provide that soon. Although I was speaking in general terms there in reply to Strarmill's comment.

Sure I will retrieve the tickets and scan/post them tomorrow when I am back in the office

 

[Starmill]

[


This is exactly what I though. I think the said person needs dealing with by their employer because (as you say) selling an Anytime ticket when I (Super) Off Peak should be sold is clearly a cause for concern if this is indeed happening. I speak in general terms here and not with reference to this specific case given we are still waiting for futher information from the OP

I don't think I can stand by these earlier statements now that we know how the guard came to realise what was happening with these tickets.

As an aside, although there is not complete consensus, it is commonly thought that if a seat that is reserved from a location and remains unoccupied more than a few moments after the train has departed that location then the reservation holder forfeits their right to that seat.

Hence the person who sat there after departure from Newcastle would have thought that nobody was coming to claim it and considered that they were within their rights to sit there.

If you had simply sat somewhere else, this bending of the rules might well have gone undetected.

All the same it'd be good if you could be clearer about what the ticket coupons (pieces of card) you were issued say on them and for the last time I think now we will ask which actual train you travelled on. As a number of other posters have mentioned we can give a lot of (not necessarily helpful) conjecture but not a lot of facts unless you do this.

 

[yorkie]

The tickets purchased were for a specific mid morning train...

As stated in our Fares Guide, the internal railway policy is that "... there may be occasions where a passenger joins the correct train but at a later station, ..... Although this is not strictly in accordance with the rules for Advance tickets, the Rail industry has agreed that in such cases, no additional fare should be charged unless there is clear evidence of intent to try and avoid a higher fare..." it would not normally be the case that Newcastle to London is cheaper than York to London, though as you admit this was the case for you this is both puzzling for me (as you have not provided sufficient information for me to investigate this phenomenon) and problematical for you. But, if you booked before York - London Advance fares went on sale, then I would argue that the last sentence quoted above really shouldn't apply in your case.

If you were treated as being in breach of the Break of Journey restriction in a manner that should be charged for then I see nothing in the Advance T&Cs to suggest that the charge should be anything other than that described in NRCoC Condition 16, which would be "the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket(s) available at a ticket office for immediate travel that would have entitled you to start,.... your journey at [York] on the service(s) you have used", and the price of such a ticket during what both I and Virgin Trains East Coast call "mid morning" would be £96.80.

my seat was taken and when I asked the passenger if I could have my seat he became unhappy

Understandably so.

and went to find the inspector and the rest is history as explained.

Ah, I see. So you brought it on yourself.

However you were, as far as I can tell, overcharged and I am keen for you to obtain a refund of the additional charge and for the Guard to be given appropriate training regarding NRCoC Condition 16.

The ticket I was issued was a full fare anytime single from York to London, I was not offered any other option other than which class I wanted to pay for. No mention of excess fare or penalty fare.

That is not compliant with the NRCoC, so you have a case.

 

[Eboordna]

As stated in our Fares Guide, the internal railway policy is that "... there may be occasions where a passenger joins the correct train but at a later station, ..... Although this is not strictly in accordance with the rules for Advance tickets, the Rail industry has agreed that in such cases, no additional fare should be charged unless there is clear evidence of intent to try and avoid a higher fare..." it would not normally be the case that Newcastle to London is cheaper than York to London, though as you admit this was the case for you this is both puzzling for me (as you have not provided sufficient information for me to investigate this phenomenon) and problematical for you. But, if you booked before York - London Advance fares went on sale, then I would argue that the last sentence quoted above really shouldn't apply in your case.

I don't have any personal knowledge on NCL/YRK-KGX so can't comment on whether or not VTEC price their tickets this way, however ToCs may make more expensive AP tickets for some shorter journeys for a whole host of reasons, and it is done now on many many routes... I can't give examples here for commercial reasons. These obviously don't all apply for this journey but do for many others...
- They're competing with someone (airlines or other TOC) on the longer journey only
- They want to push people onto a different train on the shorter journey which doesn't run the whole longer route
- It could be a peak commuter train for the short journey but not the longer one
- Many people on very cheap short journey APs may not show up, but by them taking a ticket it's removed a seat opportunity for a longer journey.

 

[firefox18]

I must say I was surprised by that as well, you would think that a travel management company would know the rules around break of journey/starting short on Advance tickets. I suggest the OP should be seeking to recover the cost of the additional ticket from Amex rather than VTEC.

Thank you for that suggestion, indeed a call to Amex today resulted in them refunding the money I paid onboard.

Again thanks for all your help

 

[najaB]

Thank you for that suggestion, indeed a call to Amex today resulted in them refunding the money I paid onboard.

Again thanks for all your help

Happy to hear it.

 

[gray1404]

It would still be interesting to get the full facts of this case and see what East Coast's reply is... It would be interesting to see what this is. They should be applying the rules correctly and if not, it should be challenged (although still details of the exact train and tickets/additional ticket as not been provided so we are not able to assess this at this point sadly)

 

[gimmea50anyday]

As far as the seat reservation is concerned, if you choose not to occupy that seat from its originating station then the TOC are not required to "hold" that seat. Train managers dealing with busy services will remove reservations that arent being used in order to make the seats available for other users so in that case, unfortunately, tough!

However, could you not have simply told the train manager that you boarded the wrong train in error and was told your options were to either wait for your correct train at the next stop or purchase a new ticket? As that is usually the primary options given in cases where people who have boarded the wrong train with APEX tickets are given....

(Hears crack of worm can opening...)

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Just checked my avantix machine. There is no £167 fare from York

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Just checked my avantix machine. There is no £167 fare from York

No, there isn't!
(S)he said it was for first class travel, and I see that there is a fare at £177.50 (not £167) which isn't on that screenshot - its an Anytime single, available on East Coast only, for First Class travel.
I wonder if that was what was charged?

 

[gimmea50anyday]

But the OP moved to standard class, and therefore shouldnt have paid for a FC fare. Doesnt make sense....

 

[gray1404]

I think we really need the OP to scan the tickets involved and provide details of the exact service used.

 

[34D]

Thank you for that suggestion, indeed a call to Amex today resulted in them refunding the money I paid onboard.

Again thanks for all your help

Don't expect that to be the end of it.

Amex (unclear if this is the credit card merchant, or their corporate travel service) will 'chargeback' the amount to VTEC.

VTEC will either convince their merchant that the charge was legitimate or else VTEC will have an outstanding debt.... plus your name and address.

You are at risk of being contacted by their prosecutions department over a RoRA 5 (3) offence.

In their eyes, it is the same as a bounced cheque scenario.

Earlier comments notwithstanding, but you should be aware of the possibility I outline here.

 

[najaB]

Amex (unclear if this is the credit card merchant, or their corporate travel service) will 'chargeback' the amount to VTEC..

As was stated by the OP, his tickets were booked through and on the advice of Amex travel services. A complaint to them has been resolved by Amex admitting their error and reimbursing the OP his additional expense.

If everything is as stated by the OP, I cannot see how they could be at risk of a RoRA prosecution.

 

[sheff1]

Don't expect that to be the end of it.

Amex (unclear if this is the credit card merchant, or their corporate travel service) will 'chargeback' the amount to VTEC.

VTEC will either convince their merchant that the charge was legitimate or else VTEC will have an outstanding debt.... plus your name and address.

You are at risk of being contacted by their prosecutions department over a RoRA 5 (3) offence.

In their eyes, it is the same as a bounced cheque scenario.

Earlier comments notwithstanding, but you should be aware of the possibility I outline here.

This makes no sense to me. Why would a travel management company be 'charging back' anything to a TOC ? They might cancel an unused ticket (depending on circs) but any accounting adjustments would surely be between the travel management company and the OP's employer who contracted them to manage company travel.

The OP paid the fare requested by Virgin, so why would he be contacted by them reagrding prosecution ? That the money he paid has been refunded to him by the travel management company is neither here nor there to Virgin (not that they would know anyway).

 

[talltim]

I don't think I can stand by these earlier statements now that we know how the guard came to realise what was happening with these tickets.

As an aside, although there is not complete consensus, it is commonly thought that if a seat that is reserved from a location and remains unoccupied more than a few moments after the train has departed that location then the reservation holder forfeits their right to that seat.

Hence the person who sat there after departure from Newcastle would have thought that nobody was coming to claim it and considered that they were within their rights to sit there.

If you had simply sat somewhere else, this bending of the rules might well have gone undetected.

All the same it'd be good if you could be clearer about what the ticket coupons (pieces of card) you were issued say on them and for the last time I think now we will ask which actual train you travelled on. As a number of other posters have mentioned we can give a lot of (not necessarily helpful) conjecture but not a lot of facts unless you do this.

Dunno, the train I was on yesterday from Leeds was so rammed that there were quite a few people that couldn't get anywhere near their reserved seats to claim them until Sheffield. None of them seemed to have a problem getting people to move

 

[34D]

This makes no sense to me. Why would a travel management company be 'charging back' anything to a TOC ? They might cancel an unused ticket (depending on circs) but any accounting adjustments would surely be between the travel management company and the OP's employer who contracted them to manage company travel.

The OP paid the fare requested by Virgin, so why would he be contacted by them reagrding prosecution ? That the money he paid has been refunded to him by the travel management company is neither here nor there to Virgin (not that they would know anyway).

We need the OP to clarify.

I had assumed that (on train) he paid £167 (possibly on an Amex card) which was charged back.

It is not at all clear to me whether he is referring to Amex Travel Management or American Express Services Europe, the provider of the credit cards. The meaning of:

Thank you for that suggestion, indeed a call to Amex today resulted in them refunding the money I paid onboard.

Again thanks for all your help

Would be very different depending which. If it was a chargeback via his Amex card issuer they would reverse the transaction on his statement, then seek to claw the money back from the retailer.

This will upset the TOC.

 

[najaB]

It is not at all clear to me whether he is referring to Amex Travel Management or American Express Services Europe, the provider of the credit cards.

If you read the thread:

I only found out about the price difference because our company's travel management company (American Express) flagged that this was a cheaper routing option.

For a travel management company, you would think they would ensure their clients were not breaking the law.

I must say I was surprised by that as well, you would think that a travel management company would know the rules around break of journey/starting short on Advance tickets. I suggest the OP should be seeking to recover the cost of the additional ticket from Amex rather than VTEC.

Thank you for that suggestion, indeed a call to Amex today resulted in them refunding the money I paid onboard.

Again thanks for all your help

It isn't really that unclear.

 

[yorkie]

Don't expect that to be the end of it.

Amex (unclear if this is the credit card merchant, or their corporate travel service) will 'chargeback' the amount to VTEC.

VTEC will either convince their merchant that the charge was legitimate or else VTEC will have an outstanding debt.... plus your name and address.

You are at risk of being contacted by their prosecutions department over a RoRA 5 (3) offence.

In their eyes, it is the same as a bounced cheque scenario.

Earlier comments notwithstanding, but you should be aware of the possibility I outline here.

I don't think VTEC will take any action, if what the OP says is true, as they will be aware of this thread and realise their Guard was in the wrong to charge the amount claimed under the circumstances described.

 

[sheff1]

We need the OP to clarify.

I agree with najaB. In my view too, it is not unclear and there is no need for the OP to clarify. If, however, you genuinely want clarification the best course of action is to ask for it, not make potentially worrying (to the OP) statements such as:

Don't expect that to be the end of it.

You are at risk of being contacted by their prosecutions department over a RoRA 5 (3) offence.

Saying that, as the matter has been resolved to the OP's satisfaction, I doubt they will be back anyway.

 

[ian959]

Some people really need to comprehend what is written sometimes...

Here is what the OP said:

I had no problems until my last trip when the inspector said I cannot use the ticket as I did not board at the first station (Newcastle) and that I would have to purchase a new ticket to travel. Knowing it's not best practise to challenge and cause a scene I moved to second class and paid onboard for a single to London.

...

Is it worth challenging this and should I make a claim for the single to London that I bought onboard £167?

All 34D is doing is questioning whether the refund was made by a credit card company (possibly American Express) for the £167 paid onboard or whether it was the travel management company (another division of American Express) that paid back the £167 paid onboard.

IF it was AMEX the credit card division then there IS a possibility that the matter could still be unresolved as there WOULD be a chargeback to VTEC.

IF it was AMEX the travel management division then certainly the OP has nothing further to worry about.

34D's post simply hinges on HOW the £167 was paid for onboard...

 

[najaB]

I really should let this one slide but it's that kind of morning.

Some people really need to comprehend what is written sometimes...

All 34D is doing is questioning...

Don't expect that to be the end of it.

Reads like a statement, not a question.

Amex (unclear if this is the credit card merchant, or their corporate travel service) will 'chargeback' the amount to VTEC.

'Will' rather than 'may' or 'might' doesn't sound like there's any questioning going on.

I had assumed that (on train) he paid £167 (possibly on an Amex card) which was charged back.

Ah, now we're getting to the heart of the matter. Stating that the OP is at risk of criminal prosecutions based on unstated (and apparently incorrect) assumptions.

 

[34D]

Stating that the OP is at risk of criminal prosecutions based on unstated (and apparently incorrect) assumptions.

I apologise for my sins.