Virgin East Coast refuse to provide fare information before journey

[MKB]

We need to travel from Carlisle to Newcastle on Saturday 5 December using a Two-Together railcard. There are re-routed GR trains so I thought it would be pleasant to go first-class on one of those.

As there are no published first-class fares on this route, I tried asking Virgin how much they will charge but the upshot is that they refuse to say in advance and that I will find out once on the train:

https://twitter.com/Virgin_TrainsEC/status/653207665645088768?s=09

How do I book CAR-NCL in first class on Sat 5 Dec on one of the re-routed @Virgin_TrainsEC services? No first-class fares are available.

We only divert to that route if there are engineering works planned. You may be looking at a @northernrailorg service. ^MS

No. I already explained they are rerouted. The 15:05 or 16:18 for example.

Hi Martin. As we do not regularly operate on this route, the pricing is not set by us so there isn't a fare available, sorry.

So if I have a std class ticket and sit in first class, how will the excess be calculated?

The Guard will have the prices for upgrades on the day. ^PA

Sorry @Virgin_TrainsEC that's really not acceptable that you can't tell me in advance how much my (very simple) train journey will cost.

Prices of all tickets vary depending on the journey/time and time of booking. We wouldn't be able to confirm a fare. ^PA

Surely it's not unreasonable to expect to know how much a journey will cost before you make the decision to take it?

 

[najaB]

Surely it's not unreasonable to expect to know how much a journey will cost before you make the decision to take it?

As you pointed out there is no First Class fare for this route. So you would have to purchase a Standard ticket and do a Weekend First upgrade, in which case they are correct that this is done on board the train.

Given the length of the journey it should be £15 per person to upgrade.

 

[maniacmartin]

Note that Weekend First on VTEC is subject to availability. Last time I was on an East Coast diversion between Carlisle and Newcastle, the train was very busy and first class was full, so some people looking to upgrade may be turned away

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd bet they hadn't even thought of it.

 

[Olympian]

If you're only travelling one way then Gretna Green to Dunbar Anytime Day 1st Singles are valid via Newcastle and are only £52.50 for both of you with a Two Together railcard and you can just use them between Carlisle and Newcastle.

Whilst this would be £1.60 more than Carlisle to Newcastle standard singles along with Weekend First upgrades it would at least give you reserved seats in 1st class.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

If you're only travelling one way then Gretna Green to Dunbar Anytime Day 1st Singles are valid via Newcastle and are only £52.50 for both of you with a Two Together railcard and you can just use them between Carlisle and Newcastle.

Whilst this would be £1.60 more than Carlisle to Newcastle standard singles along with Weekend First upgrades it would at least give you reserved seats in 1st class.

A bit cheaper on a Carlisle-Northallerton 1st Class Day Single at £24.05 each with railcard.

 

[Tetchytyke]

There isn't a first class fare for that route, as trains on that route don't normally convey first class accommodation. Therefore they cannot sell a first class ticket for that journey. You may be able to upgrade once on board, but that upgrade is at the discretion of the guard.

I don't see what the wibbling is all about.

 

[A-driver]

I've just read the Twitter dialogue and am confused why you are worked up? They clearly state that the only way to travel first is to buy onboard as no 1st class fares are available on that route-it's a diversion, not a regular route. VTEC have already told you in Twitter that you need to upgrade onboard and you are refusing to listen to them...they are right.

 

[Olympian]

There isn't a first class fare for that route, as trains on that route don't normally convey first class accommodation. Therefore they cannot sell a first class ticket for that journey. You may be able to upgrade once on board, but that upgrade is at the discretion of the guard.

I don't see what the wibbling is all about.

I agree that there isn't a first class fare for Carlisle to Newcastle but myself and LNW-GW Joint have already detailed how to buy first class tickets for that journey, and in LNW-GW Joint's case in fact for cheaper than standard class plus weekend first upgrade.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I've just read the Twitter dialogue and am confused why you are worked up? They clearly state that the only way to travel first is to buy onboard as no 1st class fares are available on that route-it's a diversion, not a regular route. VTEC have already told you in Twitter that you need to upgrade onboard and you are refusing to listen to them...they are right.

Not true - I could book tickets on the VTEC website (in fact any TOC website) right now that include first class seat reservations from Carlisle to Newcastle on the diverted VTEC trains. See my other posts also LNW-GW Joint's.

 

[A-driver]

I agree that there isn't a first class fare for Carlisle to Newcastle but myself and LNW-GW Joint have already detailed how to buy first class tickets for that journey, and in LNW-GW Joint's case in fact for cheaper than standard class plus weekend first upgrade.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---



Not true - I could book tickets on the VTEC website (in fact any TOC website) right now that include first class seat reservations from Carlisle to Newcastle on the diverted VTEC trains. See my other posts also LNW-GW Joint's.

I've read your other posts and of course you can book a longer journey which uses that section but VTEC Twitter are absolutely right to state you can not buy first class Carlisle-Newcastle. They are not there to find ways round this with complex ticketing like you are suggesting. Nothing they said is wrong or 'unacceptable' as three OP claims.

 

[Tetchytyke]

You can book a longer journey, but you cannot buy a first class ticket from Carlisle to Newcastle because it doesn't exist. I don't see that it is for VTEC to point out longer journeys that do have first class available.

Just be grateful they allow you to travel Carlisle to Newcastle at all; GNER didn't, as Carlisle was not an advertised calling point when they used to run the diversions.

I'd agree they could have pointed out that a weekend first upgrade might be available, but that's about it.

 

[yorkie]

I've read your other posts and of course you can book a longer journey which uses that section but VTEC Twitter are absolutely right to state you can not buy first class Carlisle-Newcastle. They are not there to find ways round this with complex ticketing like you are suggesting. Nothing they said is wrong or 'unacceptable' as three OP claims.

If VTEC want to turn 1st class customers away then that's their prerogative. I agree that they are under no obligation to suggest a ticket to Northallerton.

It is, however, poor customer service in my opinion, and an example of the sort of situation that is almost unique to the rail industry, (and anyone thinks otherwise they are entitled to, but we will have to agree to disagree!)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

..Just be grateful they allow you to travel Carlisle to Newcastle at all; GNER didn't, as Carlisle was not an advertised calling point when they used to run the diversions.....

For the first year or so, that was true, but after that it was an advertised call. GNER certainly did allow it and I know because I travelled with them! They even gave out complimentary tea/coffee and shortbread. I remember once not having time to buy a combination at York, but having time to get an onward ticket at Newcastle. I was sold a Tyne Valley Ranger (as I think it was called at the time; later Hadrians Wall Ranger) by the GNER ticket office at Newcastle, because it was cheaper than a return to Carlisle at that time!

 

[najaB]

It is, however, poor customer service in my opinion, and an example of the sort of situation that is almost unique to the rail industry, (and anyone thinks otherwise they are entitled to, but we will have to agree to disagree!)

The OP asked the twitter team for the price of a First Class ticket from Carlisle to Newcastle. What answer would you have given - bearing in mind that ticketing staff are under no obligation to offer splits or recommend starting short (and in many cases are under instructions not to offer them)?

 

[yorkie]

The OP asked the twitter team for the price of a First Class ticket from Carlisle to Newcastle. What answer would you have given - bearing in mind that ticketing staff are under no obligation to offer splits or recommend starting short (and in many cases are under instructions not to offer them)?

I would have said something like "I'm sorry there isn't one at present, but we'll look into it" and sent an email to the pricing manager, or something like that.

 

[najaB]

I would have said something like "I'm sorry there isn't one at present, but we'll look into it" and sent an email to the pricing manager, or something like that.

The answer given by the Twitter team was more useful - "Speak to the Guard on the day".

 

[yorkie]

The answer given by the Twitter team was more useful - "Speak to the Guard on the day".

How is not providing the cost of Weekend First and saying to ask the Guard on the day "useful"? The Guard will ask for £15 if there are spare seats.

Given how popular these trains can be, I wouldn't rate the chances of finding a spare table for two very highly.

Virgin Trains East Coast recommend booking in advance, and there is a reason for that!

It seems the problem of 1st class passengers being turned away is not as uncommon as you might think. We had a thread a couple of days ago with the same thing, and a forum member was turned away from 1st class on Grand Central only yesterday!

 

[Starmill]

The Railway really does not always take proper advantage of things like this.

Myself and some forum members were recently turned away by the guard for our journey on Grand Central from Mirfield to Halifax when we asked how much it would be to sit in First Class. Of course, there is no First Class fare, but there were about 5 people in the entire First Class coach. We all held valid standard class tickets, and if the upgrade had been reasonable we probably would all have paid it for the novelty of sitting in the newly-refurbished First Class. The most amusing thing is it's highly doubtful if Grand Central will derive any revenue from any of the various different, perfectly valid standard class tickets we held. The chances are they got £0 from conveying us in one empty part of the train, where they could have got at least something from conveying us in another empty part of the train. And people wonder why the Bradford route doesn't make much money...

 

[najaB]

How is not providing the cost of Weekend First and saying to ask the Guard on the day "useful"? The Guard will ask for £15 if there are spare seats.

Weekend first isn't always £15, it can definitely be more (and I'm not sure but possibly less). I agree it will more than likely be £15 but Carlisle-Newcastle isn't a normal VTEC route so they probably didn't have the answer to hand immediately and didn't want to guess. That really was the only answer they could give without venturing into 'unconventional ticketing' territory, and I suspect that they aren't allowed to do that.

 

[yorkie]

Weekend first isn't always £15, it can definitely be more (and I'm not sure but possibly less). I agree it will more than likely be £15 but Carlisle-Newcastle isn't a normal VTEC route so they probably didn't have the answer to hand immediately and didn't want to guess. That really was the only answer they could give without venturing into 'unconventional ticketing' territory, and I suspect that they aren't allowed to do that.

On VTEC Weekend First is £15 on any journey wholly north of (and excluding) Stevenage.

 

[A-driver]

If VTEC want to turn 1st class customers away then that's their prerogative. I agree that they are under no obligation to suggest a ticket to Northallerton.

It is, however, poor customer service in my opinion, and an example of the sort of situation that is almost unique to the rail industry, (and anyone thinks otherwise they are entitled to, but we will have to agree to disagree!)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

For the first year or so, that was true, but after that it was an advertised call. GNER certainly did allow it and I know because I travelled with them! They even gave out complimentary tea/coffee and shortbread. I remember once not having time to buy a combination at York, but having time to get an onward ticket at Newcastle. I was sold a Tyne Valley Ranger (as I think it was called at the time; later Hadrians Wall Ranger) by the GNER ticket office at Newcastle, because it was cheaper than a return to Carlisle at that time!

They are not turning down first class customers though. They don't operate gains via Carlisle, it's purely a diversionary route. The train , being diverted due to a closure of the main line, will more than likely be very busy and so selling extra tickets is only likely to make the crowding worse.

Twitter did say he could upgrade on the train subject to room and the other guy muscling in on Twitter said that was too expensive.

Twitter are there for basic running info, not to look into all sorts of ticketing options-that's what the ticket office staff the there to help with.

I don't see it as bad customer service at all-the OP asked how much a first class fare was and Twitter told him there wasn't one which is 100% a truthful answer. The first weekend upgrade was pointed out and so I can't see they have done anything wrong and certainly don't see why I'm his last tweet the OP told them it was 'not acceptable'.

 

[MKB]

Thanks for the feedback and the suggestions, especially those sent by PM.

Let me explain further my current dilemma.

If I choose to go standard class, we would take the faster Northern service at 15:28 for a fare of £2.95 each (currently). But that will rise if I don't buy it very soon.

However, I'd rather go first class on GR for the right price and provided I can get seat reservations.

I did look for a weekend upgrade cost on brfares.com but even that isn't loaded for CAR-NCL and I rather resent having to pay a fare component that isn't railcard discounted simply because GR can't be bothered to publish a first-class fare. For comparison, the standard-class 2GETH anytime day single is £10.45 each, so I thought there was a chance that GR's first-class fare might be less than £15 extra. (I had also hoped they might respond that standard and first-class Advance fares would be loaded soon, but that appears to be hoping for too much.)

If GR's position is that CAR-NCL pax are not allowed to travel in first class, I would find that rather odd, but have to accept that policy. I don't believe however that that is their position else they would have said so.

I'm somewhat bemused that some people think GR are being perfectly reasonable by having a position that they will carry passengers but not tell you what the fare is until after you have boarded.

I'd very much like to know how much they propose to charge, so I can make a decision now as to whether to buy the Northern advance ticket instead. Although I'm quite tempted to just book the excellent suggestion of the £24.05 Northallerton fare as long as I can get it to issue a seat reservation.

Update: I can't find a way to get the 15:05 to connect with a Northallerton service to get a seat reservation. Is it possible to book this ticket and then call GR to manually reserve the seats?

 

[A-driver]

Thanks for the feedback and the suggestions, especially those sent by PM.

Let me explain further my current dilemma.

If I choose to go standard class, we would take the faster Northern service at 15:28 for a fare of £2.95 each (currently). But that will rise if I don't buy it very soon.

However, I'd rather go first class on GR for the right price and provided I can get seat reservations.

I did look for a weekend upgrade cost on brfares.com but even that isn't loaded for CAR-NCL and I rather resent having to pay a fare component that isn't railcard discounted simply because GR can't be bothered to publish a first-class fare. For comparison, the standard-class 2GETH anytime day single is £10.45 each, so I thought there was a chance that GR's first-class fare might be less than £15 extra. (I had also hoped they might respond that standard and first-class Advance fares would be loaded soon, but that appears to be hoping for too much.)

If GR's position is that CAR-NCL pax are not allowed to travel in first class, I would find that rather odd, but have to accept that policy. I don't believe however that that is their position else they would have said so.

I'm somewhat bemused that some people think GR are being perfectly reasonable by having a position that they will carry passengers but not tell you what the fare is until after you have boarded.

I'd very much like to know how much they propose to charge, so I can make a decision now as to whether to buy the Northern advance ticket instead. Although I'm quite tempted to just book the excellent suggestion of the £24.05 Northallerton fare as long as I can get it to issue a seat reservation.

Update: I can't find a way to get the 15:05 to connect with a Northallerton service to get a seat reservation. Is it possible to book this ticket and then call GR to manually reserve the seats?

This is your problem-the attitude that you wrongly believe they "can't be bothered to provide a first class fare". There is not first class fare as it isn't a regular route and Carlisle to Newcastle isn't a journey they wish to encourage people to make on their trains which will be busy enough due to the diversions without northern rail passengers also boarding.

The simplest fare is to buy a standard and get a first class upgrade if seats are free.

You seem to fail to understand that this route isn't designed for day trippers wishing to travel on an HST across the line but to allow long distance passengers to bypass the closure of the normal route. They won't sell free specific to the diversion (as no company would) as its not the purpose of the diversion.

 

[Olympian]

Update: I can't find a way to get the 15:05 to connect with a Northallerton service to get a seat reservation. Is it possible to book this ticket and then call GR to manually reserve the seats?

If you select the "Text only version" of the booking engine on the VTEC website and select the option "Extended station change times" as you enter your journey details then the 1505 from Carlisle appears as a valid itinerary to Northallerton and will let you book the first class tickets and with seat reservations.

 

[ffm]

And just who is this 'GR' you keep referring to?

 

[yorkie]

'GR' is, bizarrely, the TOC code for Virgin Trains East Coast. For some reason unknown to me it remains the same as it was in GNER days.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is an example of where the old ability to calculate a First Class fare would come in...

 

[bb21]

At £2.95 with Northern, just go with that. Spend the saving on something else.

I don't see what the big deal is. As already explained, twitter people are not fares specialists so I don't see why it is unreasonable that they cannot tell you something that does not exist. Use a ticket office or telesales, but given the unusual nature of this request I doubt they would know the answer either.

No First Class upgrade would be available on BRFares because it does not exist.

Alternatively just book the £24.05 ticket and ring them for a reservation on your desired train. You know this fare exists because that is one of the purposes of the forum - to help you find a way around a problem due to the complexity of the system.

It is an insignificant issue in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I rather resent having to pay a fare component that isn't railcard discounted simply because GR can't be bothered to publish a first-class fare

The fare for Carlisle to Newcastle is set by Northern Rail, who have only set a standard class fare for the very good reason that the only regularly scheduled trains on that route only convey standard class accommodation.

You can complain to VTEC's pricing manager if you want. They'll tell you to complain to Northern, who'll tell you that there isn't regular first class accommodation on that route.

Your suggestion that VTEC set their own advance purchase fares on a temporary diversionary route, an action that would be purely revenue abstractive from Northern Rail, is neither reasonable nor realistic.

The Twitter response- that the first class upgrade amount will depend on when you're travelling and where you're travelling to- was entirely accurate.

 

[Darandio]

I'm somewhat bemused that some people think GR are being perfectly reasonable by having a position that they will carry passengers but not tell you what the fare is until after you have boarded.

I'm more bemused that despite you being told umpteen times why the situation is perfectly reasonable, you still believe it is unreasonable.

 

[Starmill]

Your suggestion that VTEC set their own advance purchase fares on a temporary diversionary route, an action that would be purely revenue abstractive from Northern Rail, is neither reasonable nor realistic.

Why do you think they are making passenger calls at Carlisle?

Answer: so that they can take their share of Newcastle <> Carlisle and Edinbrugh <> Carlisle revenue.