"Duty" to seek out the guard (again!)

[yorkie]

On some lines that would mean almost everyone having to board through one set of doors, and severe congestion in the rear vestibule.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's interesting that that article, though it may be misreported, seems to suggest ATW taking a Dutch-style line that you must pay by card if there is a card only TVM full stop, i.e. you can't travel if you don't have a card.

That is known not to be the policy of most TOCs with card-only TVMs - on LM, for instance, you can pay on board or at your destination if only card payment is available at the origin, provided you wish to pay cash and have sufficient for the fare.
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On some lines that would mean almost everyone having to board through one set of doors, and severe congestion in the rear vestibule.

I agree, it's not ideal, and it may be a reason not to have the policy at all. But my point was that the situation has to be clear before boarding even for a first-time user, and if it isn't it is not fit for purpose.

It would not, for instance, be acceptable to me to require a mother with a baby in a pram who boarded at the front to have to leave their child unattended in order to go to the rear and get a ticket. They should know where to board straight away before they do.
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Thinking on, it's a very DB-esque policy - yet another one

But on DB this kind of rule applies (or did) on DOO rural lines, not "guarded" ones, and the driver can't exactly be anywhere other than the front cab. Notably, the driver didn't actually sell tickets (though some of the older DMUs have a mount for a ticket machine and a change holder in the cab) but just made a mental note of who asked so if inspectors boarded they could be informed who should not be PFed.

 

[najaB]

It's worth noting (and may already have been upthread) that nowhere in the article is there a direct quote from an ATW representative stating there is an obligation to seek out the guard. The only direct quotes say that the passenger has an obligation to use the ticket machine where there is one available. It is possible that the reporter has made incorrect assumptions.

 

[Hadders]

It's interesting that that article, though it may be misreported, seems to suggest ATW taking a Dutch-style line that you must pay by card if there is a card only TVM full stop, i.e. you can't travel if you don't have a card.

ATW cannot unilaterally decide which methods of payment are accepted. We have a National Rail network and the methods of payment apply to all operators. I this is to change then it has to change nationally, not just at stations served by ATW.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's worth noting (and may already have been upthread) that nowhere in the article is there a direct quote from an ATW representative stating there is an obligation to seek out the guard. The only direct quotes say that the passenger has an obligation to use the ticket machine where there is one available. It is possible that the reporter has made incorrect assumptions.

It is quite possible that what is meant is "if you have walked past a means of payment for which you are carrying the means of paying, you must seek the guard out yourself", which is more than reasonable. Indeed, if I am ever in that position (have been once or twice when in a hurry) I would look for them on the platform before even boarding and confirm they were able to sell me a ticket and would do so, and at what rate it would be sold (Anytime or discounted). If not happy with the answer, or the answer is no, time to wait for the next train.
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ATW cannot unilaterally decide which methods of payment are accepted. We have a National Rail network and the methods of payment apply to all operators. I this is to change then it has to change nationally, not just at stations served by ATW.

Though what is not defined, and seems to be ambiguous and not consistent between TOCs, is that if you have a means of payment the machine accepts (e.g. a card) but *wish* to use another means (e.g. cash, or RTVs), whether you are then allowed to ignore the machine and pay later, or whether you have to use it because you have *a* means of payment.

This might also be relevant e.g. if it is a cash/card TVM and you wish to pay by card, perhaps because that's your last 20 quid of cash left that month but you have credit card capacity, or you want to bill it onto a corporate card directly[1] - are you required to spend the cash?

[1] Two nice examples from opposite ends of the scale...

 

[najaB]

Though what is not defined, and seems to be ambiguous and not consistent between TOCs, is that if you have a means of payment the machine accepts (e.g. a card) but *wish* to use another means (e.g. cash, or RTVs), whether you are then allowed to ignore the machine and pay later, or whether you have to use it because you have *a* means of payment.

Oh no, not again...

 

[TUC]

A lot of this comes down to something that arises all too often more widely which is why the rail industry seems to find it so difficult to express issues in clear, precise language?

 

[beeza1]

What would happen if you had a quantity of RTV's about to expire which you wanted to use to purchase your ticket, but only a TVM, cash & card or card only,was available, would you still be able to purchase on board without penalty?

 

[najaB]

What would happen if you had a quantity of RTV's ...would you still be able to purchase on board without penalty?

Does the guard casting a curse on your immortal soul count as a penalty?

 

[sheff1]

On some lines that would mean almost everyone having to board through one set of doors, and severe congestion in the rear vestibule.

Indeed. I travelled on the Hope Valley today. As usual plenty of passengers boarded at each station through the valley, none of which have any ticketing facilities. The guard seemed to get to everyone eventually but was still issuing tickets to Hathersage boarders after Chinley.

On the return journey, the guard never left his cab once. Again plenty joined at the valley stations - I assume they all had tickets as I did not notice anybody heading towards the booking office at Sheffield

 

[Starmill]

Though what is not defined, and seems to be ambiguous and not consistent between TOCs, is that if you have a means of payment the machine accepts (e.g. a card) but *wish* to use another means (e.g. cash, or RTVs), whether you are then allowed to ignore the machine and pay later, or whether you have to use it because you have *a* means of payment.

Happily, this is a moot point. It's very well defined that some payment methods are always accepted, including cash, cards and vouchers. So if you present cash at the first opportunity where it's accepted (either on the train or at your interchange/destination), you can't be physically searched to see if you're carrying some other payment method which you might have used.

 

[TUC]

I was on a Northern Rail train the other day where there was a change of guard and the new one had found himself stuck behind the crowd of boarding passengers. He pushed through (not impolitely, but did push through), only to immediately go into the rear cab and stay there. Needless to say, the train had more then enough room for him to walk it and inspect/sell tickets.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Happily, this is a moot point. It's very well defined that some payment methods are always accepted, including cash, cards and vouchers. So if you present cash at the first opportunity where it's accepted (either on the train or at your interchange/destination), you can't be physically searched to see if you're carrying some other payment method which you might have used.

It isn't "well defined" at all. It is in fact defined precisely nowhere.

Has there been a test case?

 

[Starmill]

Seems fine to me. Cash, for example:

Cash
Any combination of notes and coins are accepted, as below.
Coins

Acceptable combinations of coins are:
1p and 2p coins up to 20p
5p and 10p coins up to £5
20p and 50p coins up to £10
£1 and £2 coins up to any amount
Jersey/Guernsey/Isle of Man coins will not be accepted.
Bank Notes of the British Isles

The following bank notes may be accepted:
Bank notes issued by the Bank of England and bearing a portrait of Her Majesty the Queen;
Sterling notes issued by Allied Irish Banks plc
Sterling notes issued by Bank of Ireland
Sterling notes issued by Northern Bank Ltd
Sterling notes issued by Ulster Bank Ltd
Bank notes issued by Bank of Scotland
Bank notes issued by Clydesdale Bank plc
Bank notes issued by Royal Bank of Scotland
Sterling bank notes issued by the Isle of Man Bank Ltd
Sterling bank notes issued by States of Guernsey
Sterling bank notes issued by States of Jersey
Foreign currency

Most train companies will not accept foreign bank notes.

 

[yorkie]

What would happen if you had a quantity of RTV's about to expire which you wanted to use to purchase your ticket, but only a TVM, cash & card or card only,was available, would you still be able to purchase on board without penalty?

of course; it's a valid payment method.

 

[island]

Seems fine to me. Cash, for example:

It is not at all well defined that a passenger wishing to pay in cash but in possession of a card which will be accepted at a vending machine and with sufficient funds/available credit in the relevant account is entitled to choose not to use a card-only vending machine and pay on board/at his destination by cash.

 

[crehld]

As I pointed out on another thread on a similar topic quite recently, I have been told off twice now for actively making my way to the back cab to gain the guard's attention and ask for a ticket. In no uncertain terms I was told the correct procedure is to simply sit down and wait to be served - this therefore appears to be the preferred policy of the rail industry, or at least those who work on the frontline.

I was on a Northern Rail train the other day where there was a change of guard and the new one had found himself stuck behind the crowd of boarding passengers. He pushed through (not impolitely, but did push through), only to immediately go into the rear cab and stay there. Needless to say, the train had more then enough room for him to walk it and inspect/sell tickets.

Northern went through a patch about two years ago when you could board a train and 9 times out of 10 there would be absolutely no effort made to come through to sell and check tickets (much to everyone's frustration, particularly when you got picked up by the cheerful florescent army). This seems to have improved now as whenever I board 9 times out of 10 a guard come round and sells me the necessary ticket.

It is not at all well defined that a passenger wishing to pay in cash but in possession of a card which will be accepted at a vending machine and with sufficient funds/available credit in the relevant account is entitled to choose not to use a card-only vending machine and pay on board/at his destination by cash.

Is it well defined that a passenger wishing to pay in cash but in possession of a card which will be accepted at a vending machine and with sufficient funds/available credit in the relevant account must use said card rather than pay on board/at his/her destination by cash (a recognized valid payment method)? If so, where?

 

[Starmill]

It is not at all well defined that a passenger wishing to pay in cash but in possession of a card which will be accepted at a vending machine and with sufficient funds/available credit in the relevant account is entitled to choose not to use a card-only vending machine and pay on board/at his destination by cash.

What's well-defined is that cash is an acceptable payment method as listed.

If someone chooses to pay with this method and has sufficient accepted cash for the fare then it is moot if they have any other payment methods, because quite sensibly the railway doesn't have the power to search people to determine this.

I hope that's clear.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is not at all well defined that a passenger wishing to pay in cash but in possession of a card which will be accepted at a vending machine and with sufficient funds/available credit in the relevant account is entitled to choose not to use a card-only vending machine and pay on board/at his destination by cash.

Indeed, and I have heard of RPIs and TOCs taking either possible view on the matter. LM, in my experience, are happy with you travelling and paying at your destination if your *chosen* method of payment is not accepted (I did this with RTVs). But I have heard of the opposite.
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If someone chooses to pay with this method and has sufficient accepted cash for the fare then it is moot if they have any other payment methods, because quite sensibly the railway doesn't have the power to search people to determine this.

I hope that's clear.

It isn't, because while it doesn't have the power to search anyone, it can act on what it sees, such as a card being visible when someone opens their wallet to pay cash, and on being asked if they could have used it they answer "yes, but I wanted to pay cash".

I challenge anyone to find it written down[1] what one can/must do if in possession of an accepted method of payment before boarding, but wishing to use a method not accepted at that station, e.g. because the TVM doesn't take cash.

[1] Other than the unofficial hand written note in the window at Tring.

 

[TUC]

It could of course also be that a passenger has a card, but with no money in the account, although having cash with them. It is difficult to see how payment by card could be insisted on in such circumstances.

 

[miami]

None of this talk of people avoiding open ticket offices alters the fact that if you board at a station without facilities to buy the ticket using your chosen payment method you are not required to walk up and down the train searching for a Guard/ticket examiner/RPI, and if ATW are claiming otherwise they need to be dealt with appropriately.

Sorry it's an oldish thread, spotted this in the window of the Wilmslow ticket office as I waited (and waited and waited) for the bus.

"if ticket purchasing facilities are not available where you board the train, you must attract the attention of the conductor on board before you reach your destination"

 

[323235]

As I pointed out on another thread on a similar topic quite recently, I have been told off twice now for actively making my way to the back cab to gain the guard's attention and ask for a ticket. In no uncertain terms I was told the correct procedure is to simply sit down and wait to be served - this therefore appears to be the preferred policy of the rail industry, or at least those who work on the frontline.



Northern went through a patch about two years ago when you could board a train and 9 times out of 10 there would be absolutely no effort made to come through to sell and check tickets (much to everyone's frustration, particularly when you got picked up by the cheerful florescent army). This seems to have improved now as whenever I board 9 times out of 10 a guard come round and sells me the necessary ticket.



Is it well defined that a passenger wishing to pay in cash but in possession of a card which will be accepted at a vending machine and with sufficient funds/available credit in the relevant account must use said card rather than pay on board/at his/her destination by cash (a recognized valid payment method)? If so, where?

I would disagree that 9/10 times guards didn't used to come round - I'd say it was more 60/40 at the lower end in favour of them coming round in my experience. I do however agree that I get checked closer to 8-9/10 now. I know of one guard who will always check every single train unless his machine is faulty.

 

[Bletchleyite]

"if ticket purchasing facilities are not available where you board the train, you must attract the attention of the conductor on board before you reach your destination"

In which case, might Northern ensure the conductor on board *always* comes through the train?

No, I thought not, and nor can they. TVMs and a proper PF scheme required in busy areas. I hope Arriva will solve this issue properly.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Like they have in the valleys?

 

[Starmill]

Around half of guards come through the train after Mauldeth Road going towards Manchester. What exactly you're supposed to do if they don't is unknown.

It's strange that there is a poster like that at Wilmslow, which is well-staffed. I haven't seen any at the local stations on that line, the majority of which have very restricted facilities.

 

[323235]

In which case, might Northern ensure the conductor on board *always* comes through the train?

No, I thought not, and nor can they. TVMs and a proper PF scheme required in busy areas. I hope Arriva will solve this issue properly.

This is why 50% of Northern Guards will become always available revenue collectors , presumably they won't be allowed in the backcab at all?

 

[suzanneparis]

I once boarded a train at a station without a ticket office.

I went and found the guard in order to buy a ticket. He 'firmly' told me to go and sit down and wait until he got to me!

Can't win.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is why 50% of Northern Guards will become always available revenue collectors , presumably they won't be allowed in the backcab at all?

Still not going to guarantee they get to you.

 

[Tetchytyke]

"if ticket purchasing facilities are not available where you board the train, you must attract the attention of the conductor on board before you reach your destination"

I'd pay good money to watch fifty people braying on the guard's cab door demanding to be sold a ticket immediately. I'd pay even more money to watch the guard only open the local door at each station and check and sell tickets before departure.

After all, Northern have clearly stated they are now the rules.

 

[DaiGog]

"if ticket purchasing facilities are not available where you board the train, you must attract the attention of the conductor on board before you reach your destination"

This is not clear enough in my view - stating that you must attract the attention of the guard is not the same as telling you to go and seek him out. If you're sitting 4 coaches away from him, you cannot reasonably attract his attention and you would, I daresay, win your case in court on the strength of that (if you get of at an unstaffed station and walk out, rather than past a ticket office).