Is a 60+ Oyster card a season ticket?

[island]

Is a 60+ Oyster card deemed to be a season ticket for the purpose of NRCoC 19 (c)? Specifically, can it be used as the first in a "string" of three or more tickets where the train does not call at one or more of the stations where the passenger changes from one ticket to the next?

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Is a 60+ Oyster card deemed to be a season ticket for the purpose of NRCoC 19 (c)?

There are two types, are there not? The first being the ordinary pay as you go type which has had a Senior Railcard loaded to it. This gives cheaper fares than a regular card but still needs to be touched in and out.

The other type is available to London residents only, called the Freedom pass. This is effectively an enhanced bus pass, available also on all rail services for which Oyster is valid. I think there may be time restrictions on use of the Freedom pass.

I doubt the regular type could ever work as part of a split because of the need to touch out, but what of the Freedom pass?

 

[island]

A 60+ Oyster card is not a normal Oyster card nor a Freedom Pass. It is a 60+ Oyster card.

 

[Haywain]

From an internal rail industry source:

The 60+ London photocard is considered to be an ‘off-peak’ season ticket for the purposes of National Rail Conditions of Carriage clause 19 "Using a combination of tickets" and for through journeys made on participating operators to and from stations outside the Concessionary Travel area the train does not need to call at the boundary station.

 

[island]

Thank you kindly.

 

[CyrusWuff]

It should be noted, however, that Freedom Passes and 60+ Oyster cards are NOT valid on:

• East Midlands Trains
• Grand Central
• Hull Trains
• Govia Thameslink Railway services branded "Gatwick Express" (between London Victoria and Gatwick Airport only)
• Heathrow Express
• Heathrow Connect between Hayes & Harlington and Heathrow Airport
• Virgin Trains East Coast
• Southeastern High Speed services between London St Pancras International and Stratford International

Full details can be found on the Freedom Pass website.

 

[Wolfie]

From an internal rail industry source:

VERY useful to a friend of mine! So is a Freedom Pass similarly so considered?

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Full details can be found on the Freedom Pass website.

which also explicitly says at
http://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/services/freedom-pass/using-pass/national-rail

If you wish to travel beyond the Freedom Pass area you must buy a separate extension ticket before you travel. Extension tickets used in conjunction with a Freedom Pass are NOT valid on services operated by any of the Train Companies listed above. - See more at: http://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/services/freedom-pass/using-pass/national-rail#sthash.xN7OpQ3w.dpuf

Eligibility for a Freedom Pass now kicks in at some age between 60 and 65 which changes almost every month as they move the State Retirement Age for Women towards that for Men. The Over 60 Oyster backdates the travel concession to age 60 for residents of London.

 

[Haywain]

VERY useful to a friend of mine! So is a Freedom Pass similarly so considered?

Indeed it is, but still subject to these restrictions:

It should be noted, however, that Freedom Passes and 60+ Oyster cards are NOT valid on:

• East Midlands Trains
• Grand Central
• Hull Trains
• Govia Thameslink Railway services branded "Gatwick Express" (between London Victoria and Gatwick Aiport only)
• Heathrow Express
• Heathrow Connect between Hayes & Harlington and Heathrow Airport
• Virgin Trains East Coast
• Southeastern High Speed services between London St Pancras International and Stratford International

Full details can be found on the Freedom Pass website.

I would add that National Rail sources indicate that travel on Southeastern High Speed services is not permitted at all, whilst TfL sources only mention this in respect of the participating operators for Oyster (that is, those within the zones).

 

[island]

The person on whose behalf I am asking wishes to use GWR services.

 

[34D]

• Govia Thameslink Railway services branded "Gatwick Express" (between London Victoria and Gatwick Aiport only)
  
• Southeastern High Speed services between London St Pancras International and Stratford International

The 60+ oyster is banned from all 'Gatwick Express' branded services then?

And high speed between Stratford and Ebbsfleet surely? Or can it be used with a 'plus high speed' boundary zone 6 ticket?

 

[button_boxer]

VERY useful to a friend of mine! So is a Freedom Pass similarly so considered?

A 60+ Oyster is essentially a Freedom Pass minus the ENCTS validity on buses in the rest of England. Within London, their validity should be equivalent.

 

[island]

The 60+ oyster is banned from all 'Gatwick Express' branded services then?

And high speed between Stratford and Ebbsfleet surely? Or can it be used with a 'plus high speed' boundary zone 6 ticket?

It is not valid on high speed services between STP and SFA because it says so. Anywhere else would be outside the zones.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Where can I find these barred train services that call at "Gatwick Aiport" ?


(fortunately, this page refers to Gatwick without an 'Aiport' or an 'Airport' )

 

[CyrusWuff]

Where can I find these barred train services that call at "Gatwick Aiport" ?

My apologies. I typed my original message on my phone whilst on a break at work.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The 60+ oyster is banned from all 'Gatwick Express' branded services then?

Not quite...You could use one (in conjunction with an appropriate ticket) between Gatwick and Brighton on one of the extended services that magically switches between being a GTR "Gatwick Express" service and a GTR "Southern" service at Gatwick Airport...but not between Victoria and Gatwick on the same train.

And high speed between Stratford and Ebbsfleet surely? Or can it be used with a 'plus high speed' boundary zone 6 ticket?

Two different issues come into play with SE High Speed:

• It wouldn't be valid between Stratford and Ebbsfleet without an extension anyway, given Ebbsfleet is outside the Travelcard Area
• St Pancras International and Stratford International are in a little bubble of reality that exists outside the Travelcard Area, as are Paddington and Heathrow for Heathrow Express

 

[TUC]

So if a 60+ London Oyster photocard is treated as a season ticket for the purposes of 19(c), does the same apply to concessionary passes in other parts of the country where they include free rail travel?

 

[cool110]

So if a 60+ London Oyster photocard is treated as a season ticket for the purposes of 19(c), does the same apply to concessionary passes in other parts of the country where they include free rail travel?

Most of those are issued by PTEs which 19(c) excludes.

 

[TUC]

But it is therefore hard to see why a special case would be made for London Oyster 60+ cards. I know that TfL is not a PTE, but it fulfils a similar role, so what would be the argument for London residents getting this additional benefit?

 

[cool110]

It keeps things consistent with Travelcards counting as seasons for 19(c).

 

[TUC]

It keeps things consistent with Travelcards counting as seasons for 19(c).

And yet PTE Travelcard-type products are not treated as season tickets. There is a large, and hard to justify, discrepancy between how London and the rest of the country is treated on this issue.

 

[Nym]

So is Transport for London not a Passenger Transport Executive?

 

[cool110]

TfL isn't a PTE as it was created under different legislation.
As for treating PTE seasons differently it allows them to be combined with point-to-point seasons to create the rough equivalent of an out-boundary Travelcard.

 

[TUC]

TfL isn't a PTE as it was created under different legislation.
As for treating PTE seasons differently it allows them to be combined with point-to-point seasons to create the rough equivalent of an out-boundary Travelcard.

Which again is something that would be desirable for those living around the boundaries of PTE areas. There's no good reason for it to be available for London but not elsewhere.

 

[MikeWh]

Which again is something that would be desirable for those living around the boundaries of PTE areas. There's no good reason for it to be available for London but not elsewhere.

I don't think you've got the point. In London you can't combine a travelcard season and another point-to-point because they are both seasons. In other places, because the PTE product is deemed not to be a season you can.

 

[TUC]

I don't think you've got the point. In London you can't combine a travelcard season and another point-to-point because they are both seasons. In other places, because the PTE product is deemed not to be a season you can.

Sorry, i thought the comment immediately above was in relation to combining with point to point alk-on tickets. I see now it was seasons. My original point still stands though in terms of the lack of ability to combine PTE concessionary passes and point to point season tickets.

 

[34D]

So is Transport for London not a Passenger Transport Executive?

I'm not convinced this is clear.

TfL is a member of PTEG which is the 'trade association' for PTE's.

I think though we are agreed that a TfL freedom pass (or 60+ card) is a relevant season ticket whereas a Merseytravel ENCTS one is not.

 

[island]

For the record, the tickets were passed without comment today on a service fast from Reading to Swindon.

 

[Deerfold]

I'm not convinced this is clear.

TfL is a member of PTEG which is the 'trade association' for PTE's.

I think though we are agreed that a TfL freedom pass (or 60+ card) is a relevant season ticket whereas a Merseytravel ENCTS one is not.

TfL is an associate member, because they're not a PTE.

 

[TUC]

I'm not convinced this is clear.

TfL is a member of PTEG which is the 'trade association' for PTE's.

I think though we are agreed that a TfL freedom pass (or 60+ card) is a relevant season ticket whereas a Merseytravel ENCTS one is not.

There is no doubt in law that TfL is not a PTE. They were set up under different legislation. However, their functions in relation to rail and to ENCTS are similar and so it is difficult to see why the system is set up so that PTE concessionary pass holders are treated less advantageously by the rail network.

 

[clagmonster]

These Freedom passes and the like came about after the introduction of condition 19 c (or those that I am aware of did anyway).

If a passenger from Redhill wishes to commute into London and then use public transport around London, they can obtain an outboundary Travelcard.

If a passenger from Stalybridge wishes to do similar, but commuting into West Yorkshire, there is no equivalent of an outboundary Travelcard, so they would obtain a Stalybridge - Marsden season and a Metrocard (other combinations involving a longer season and a Metrocard with less zones may be more efficient - this isn't relevant to the point). If, for the purposes of Condition 19 (c) both were treated as seasons, then they would be restricted to the hourly stopper which calls at Marsden. As the PTE product is not treated as a season, they are able to use the quicker and more frequent express trains, equivalent to the Redhill punter with their outboundary Travelcard.