Non Arrival of Tickets

[Tetchytyke]

I would agree with you if the vendor hadn't offered both a free and two at-cost reliable delivery methods. Given that the OP had to specifically choose First Class post, having been warned that delivery was not guaranteed, I am not as confident as you are.

It boils down to whether London Midland are able to divest their obligations in this way.

If it was the sale of a good they wouldn't- any such clause would be struck out as automatically unfair, both under old and new legislation. Whilst the transportation itself is a service, that service cannot be obtained without possession of the ticket, which is a "tangible moveable item". If it is a "tangible moveable item" then it is a good not a service.

The fact that legal ownership of the ticket rests with the TOC is, in my opinion, largely irrelevant; legal ownership of a car rests with the loan company under a HP agreement, but nobody would argue the sale of a car was a service.

The fact that the OP has a choice of delivery methods is also irrelevant; the law only transfers the risk to the purchaser of goods where the purchaser instructs the courier themselves. In this case the OP has no choice as to which company the tickets are posted with.

As an aside, it is fascinating that it is only London Midland who have chosen to put this clause into their sales contract. All the other TOCs, and even TrainLine, do not attempt to waive their obligations in this way.

I'm glad the OP's tickets turned up.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Again, is it only LM, or is it all ATOS sites?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Virgin Trains East Coast, First TPE and First Hull Trains don't have it.

Southern also have it. It must be a GoVia thing. I think I've just fallen off my chair in shock at that.

I guess we need to change our advice to avoid any GoVia retailer if you're wanting your tickets to be posted to you.

ETA: SouthEastern don't have it either

 

[northwichcat]

Again, is it only LM, or is it all ATOS sites?

Doesn't include TPE

First Class post is free. Tickets will be processed and dispatched by First Class post within 24 hours of booking.

If you do not receive your ticket(s) by the day before you travel, please call 0344 566 5637 (calls charged at 10p per minute from a BT landline) with your booking reference, where an agent will be happy to help.

Please note, we shall not be obliged to change, cancel, replace or refund a ticket where we have reason to believe that it is being done so fraudulently.

http://tickets.tpexpress.co.uk/tpe/en/Information/PostalDelivery.aspx#First+Class+Post
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Virgin Trains East Coast, First TPE and First Hull Trains don't have it.

Southern also have it. It must be a GoVia thing. I think I've just fallen off my chair in shock at that.

I guess we need to change our advice to avoid any GoVia retailer if you're wanting your tickets to be posted to you.

Or in other words only applies to TOCs using the ATOS booking engine which don't offer complimentary refreshments to First Class passengers.

Personally I don't see why you would use LM's site unless they have a promotion only available on their site. Other sites using the ATOS booking engine offer you Nectar points and/or cashback.

 

[Puffing Devil]

The Consumer Rights Act does not apply to this transaction as it was not in force when the contract was concluded.

This is wrong. The legislation quoted applies to the sale of goods. This is a transaction for the supply of services.

See above re distinction between sale of goods and supply of services.

The vendor has made it clear that it takes no responsibility for tickets lost in the post and offers other options (including the free option of collecting tickets at a station) to the buyer if he does not wish to choose to take the risk of non-delivery).

I work at a bank and in these circumstances it would be unlikely that a chargeback would succeed.

The only possible legal remedy I can conceive of, and it is a tenuous one, is that the term disclaiming responsibility for tickets lost in the post is deemed to be an unfair term under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations and a court strikes it from the contract.

I think this is a fine line between goods and services - as you need the tickets to be able to use the service. Given the debate on here there is no clear consensus. Whilst I am very familiar with Criminal Law, and corporate supply contracts, IANAL.

I would love to be able to toss this to a qualified consumer lawyer and even push for a test case to get some clarity. I'm glad the OP found their tickets, it's a shame we don't have a case going forward!

Just to add, Virgin are happy to post out tickets 1st class with instructions to call them if they don't arrive prior to the journey, given at least 5 days. It's also free if you start from a station with no TVM for collection.

 

[Agent_c]

.

The fact that legal ownership of the ticket rests with the TOC is, in my opinion, largely irrelevant; legal ownership of a car rests with the loan company under a HP agreement, but nobody would argue the sale of a car was a service.

That would be a hire purchase / lease agreement, which the supply of a train service also isn't either.

This is like saying a train ticket doesn't have big leafy branches - neither does alfalfa, therefore a ticket and train service is a grass.

 

[gray1404]

This case has got me thinking, the only way to have no issues in getting your tickets is to buy them at a booking office. Which in its self can create problems if you want a specific fare which does not load by default. At least that way you have not received the tickets until the person serving you hands them to you. If their printer fails or runs out of stock it is for them to sort out. The problem with postal delivery and collecting at a TVM, is that this could fail (get lost in the post/not print out all the tickets/log as printed when it hasn't been) and this causes great problems for the customer. Even if using a tracked service to have the tickets delivered, if they do not arrive the customer still has to go to the bother of contacting the retailer they booked them with and rely of them to issues replacments in a prompt fashion.

As a partial solution I wish it was possible for the customer to be able to insist (if they wanted) on having their tickets printed at a booking office by quoting the booking reference and producing the card used to by them with. At least at way the person seriving the customer will see exactly what tickets print off. I've tried asking at Liverpool Lime Street if they will print my tickets and they've just directed me to the TVM.

 

[najaB]

As a partial solution I wish it was possible for the customer to be able to insist (if they wanted) on having their tickets printed at a booking office by quoting the booking reference and producing the card used to by them with.

It is. I do it all the time.

 

[sheff1]

As a partial solution I wish it was possible for the customer to be able to insist (if they wanted) on having their tickets printed at a booking office by quoting the booking reference and producing the card used to by them with.

This is how things worked not that long ago.

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It is. I do it all the time.

Try it at Sheffield and you won't get far. After the change in procedure, prominent notices were displayed stating that the booking office would NOT print tickets booked online under any circumstances.

 

[najaB]

Try it at Sheffield and you won't get far.

In my experience I'm yet to ask and have it refused. Of course your experience may well differ.
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After the change in procedure, prominent notices were displayed stating that the booking office would NOT print tickets booked online under any circumstances.

I'm not sure that this is allowed.

 

[northwichcat]

I'm not sure that this is allowed.

I thought ticket offices are only supposed to print tickets sold online if you are unable to get the TVM(s) to print them. However, saying under no circumstances suggests even if all the TVMs are out-of-order or even if you are blind/partially sighted and can't use the TVM.

 

[sheff1]

In my experience I'm yet to ask and have it refused. Of course your experience may well differ.
....
I'm not sure that this is allowed.

Personally I have never tried, but I have witnessed many people being turned away.*

You may well be right on the second point. The notices are no longer there - I assumed removed as the message had got through, but maybe because they were forced to take them down.

* Not recently as I avoid the booking office nowadays if at all possible.

 

[najaB]

I thought ticket offices are only supposed to print tickets sold online if you are unable to get the TVM(s) to print them. However, saying under no circumstances suggests even if all the TVMs are out-of-order or even if you are blind/partially sighted and can't use the TVM.

That's what I was thinking too - they are obliged to help disabled people at the very least. Obviously, I don't work in a ticket office, but I have never got the impression that I was being done a favour when I've collected from the window so I'd be surprised if they were doing something they weren't supposed to do.

 

[bb21]

This is how things worked not that long ago.

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Try it at Sheffield and you won't get far. After the change in procedure, prominent notices were displayed stating that the booking office would NOT print tickets booked online under any circumstances.

It definitely is not, and has never been, EMT policy. Local management seems to be fond of making things up themselves.

 

[LAX54]

LM may also argue that, it does state quite clearly that if you choose 'Free' then they do no guarantee arrival, which is understandable these days, as quite a lot goes missing in the post ! and for the sake of £2 for tracked / signed for delivery that makes more sense to use that! someone mentioned Amazon, but even they use DPD / YODEL more times than anything now, they will replace items lost in the post, but it does take sometime, and even that is mostly 'tracked'
The contract is indeed with LM, but that may take some weeks to resolve with them and RM, and there is that 'agreement' you agree to when taking the feeebie option.

 

[Agent_c]

LM may also argue that, it does state quite clearly that if you choose 'Free' then they do no guarantee arrival, which is understandable these days, as quite a lot goes missing in the post ! and for the sake of £2 for tracked / signed for delivery that makes more sense to use that! someone mentioned Amazon, but even they use DPD / YODEL more times than anything now, they will replace items lost in the post, but it does take sometime, and even that is mostly 'tracked'
The contract is indeed with LM, but that may take some weeks to resolve with them and RM, and there is that 'agreement' you agree to when taking the feeebie option.

I find Amazon use Amazon logistics more than anything - and they are worse than the worst courier...

 

[yorkie]

In my experience I'm yet to ask and have it refused. Of course your experience may well differ.
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I'm not sure that this is allowed.

You're not familiar with some of the individuals at Sheffield ticket office, are you?

 

[northwichcat]

I find Amazon use Amazon logistics more than anything - and they are worse than the worst courier...

The one I usually get rings the bell, dumps the item outside the door and drives off. Then 15 minutes later I get an email saying the item has been left in my porch - I don't have a porch!

They do at least deliver on Sundays and Bank Holidays.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I find Amazon use Amazon logistics more than anything - and they are worse than the worst courier...

Amazon Logistics isn't one courier, it's contracted out locally. In Milton Keynes, for instance, it's currently APLE Logistics of Kiln Farm.

I find them both good and bad. Good is that deliveries are tracked but signatures are not required, so if it fits your letterbox it's a pretty decent service. Bad is that it's hard for them to handle anything remotely out of the ordinary.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The one I usually get rings the bell, dumps the item outside the door and drives off. Then 15 minutes later I get an email saying the item has been left in my porch - I don't have a porch!

I would complain about that and keep doing so. Items should not be left out in the open, they have no idea if you are in or not and may be stolen.

They do at least deliver on Sundays and Bank Holidays.

Not always an advantage to those of us who are mostly in during the working day and mostly out at weekends!

 

[najaB]

I would complain about that and keep doing so. Items should not be left out in the open, they have no idea if you are in or not and may be stolen.

Be careful what you wish for! We used to use a company that would always take care in putting packages under cover - where their definition of 'under cover' included in the full recycling bin on the curbside.

 

[34D]

I'm aware there is no *guarantee*, but in the vast majority of cases First Class is next-day and Second Class is the next 3 days. I've never quite been sure why we don't abolish the distinction, to be honest, as it is rather blurry.

It is certainly not acceptable for First Class mail to routinely and consistently take over a week, which it was doing.

Indeed. When one was half the price of the othe it had a purpose, but not when 40p/50p with so little difference.