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Jeremy Corbyn pledges rail renationalisation

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Railsigns

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Its not just Blair, Labour called for the railways to be re-nationalised in 2012 after the West Coast Mainline fiasco and a commitment to re-nationalise the railways certainly made it into their 2015 election manifesto, oh wait it didn't.

Also under Gordon Brown who was quite Left Wing when NXEC defaulted on their franchise the Labour Transport Secretary at the time said that franchising offered value for money.

And what of all the Tories' many broken election promises? Will none of those ever be implemented? Or is it one rule for the parties you dislike and another rule for the one(s) you happen to agree with?

Flawed reasoning.
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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So, as far as you're concerned, the fact that Jeremy Corbyn is about the most different kind of Labour Party leader from Tony Blair as you could possibly get counts for nothing and, as Prime Minister, Corbyn would act no differently from Blair? This looks like flawed reasoning to me.

Using the same logic, David Cameron is certain to have an affair with Edwina Currie during his premiership.

Do I take it that you are somewhat ever so slightly to the left of centre in your political views...:D:D

Is there any chance of Jeremy Corbyn ever introducing something similar to the 1933-1938 "New Deal" programme that was introduced by F.D. Roosevelt, a Democrat and President of the United States, that sent the unemployed out on work programmes of large infrastructural projects.
 
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thenorthern

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And what of all the Tories' many broken election promises? Will none of those ever be implemented? Or is it one rule for the parties you dislike and another rule for the one(s) you happen to agree with?

Flawed reasoning.

I can assure you that I am fully aware that the Conservatives have broken promises as well as Labour and so have the Liberal Democrats like after the 2010 election when both the Tories and the Lib Dems promised not to scrap Educational Maintenance Allowance but then they did after the Coalition Agreement was signed which still annoys me now. <(<(<(<(

This thread is about railways though and given that Labour's history of pledging to re-nationalise the railways but then backing down is pretty poor I know that re-nationalisation is not going to happen.
 

313103

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I can assure you that I am fully aware that the Conservatives have broken promises as well as Labour and so have the Liberal Democrats like after the 2010 election when both the Tories and the Lib Dems promised not to scrap Educational Maintenance Allowance but then they did after the Coalition Agreement was signed which still annoys me now. <(<(<(<(

This thread is about railways though and given that Labour's history of pledging to re-nationalise the railways but then backing down is pretty poor I know that re-nationalisation is not going to happen.

Yes but Gordon Brown left wing, i beg to differ!
 

Darren R

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When kind Uncle Jeremy holds the reins of power and the railways are gradually becoming part of his vision, will those passengers travelling on services back in that "national fold" be offering the pale blue and white "Co-operative dividend stamps" to those who book tickets with them?...:D

Now that really would be a good idea as I still have over 30 completed books of these that recently came to light in a shoebox in my railway archive room and I would be able to cash them in.

I think you have to go to Blackpool to cash-in those stamps. (Or was that Green Shield Stamps?) :lol:

It could be argued that passengers (and taxpayers) would get a dividend in the form of reducing the cost to said taxpayers of running the railway. I'm sure that's the theory anyway, although obviously Mr Corbyn makes no secret of his idealogical belief that the railways should be in public ownership.

Whether this is how it actually works out though, we shall have to wait and see.....

For what it's worth, personally I think that those who are already writing-off a Labour Party led by Mr Corbyn is in for something of a nasty surprise. But again, we shall see.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
...David Cameron is certain to have an affair with Edwina Currie during his premiership.

What a mental picture at this time of night! :eek: If I have a nightmare tonight I blame you! :lol:
 

jon0844

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So, as far as you're concerned, the fact that Jeremy Corbyn is about the most different kind of Labour Party leader from Tony Blair as you could possibly get counts for nothing and, as Prime Minister, Corbyn would act no differently from Blair? This looks like flawed reasoning to me.

He's definitely different. He's also proving quite popular with a lot of people because what he says sounds fantastic - as long as you don't delve too deeply into specifics.

The problem is that his idea is flawed, and I don't think there would be huge savings to be made. Nor do I think that we'd all get a better service, and certainly not increased spending (besides the odd surge perhaps before an election, although I think very quickly rail would be pushed way back behind education, policing, health etc).

I'd sooner have a state run body dictate what has to be run, and then allowing private operators to bid to run the services. Which isn't far off what happens today with the DfT. Perhaps make it a bit more like TfL, and you're probably all set.
 

HH

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For what it's worth, personally I think that those who are already writing-off a Labour Party led by Mr Corbyn is in for something of a nasty surprise.

He'll have the same problem as SNP had in the Referendum; people are going to shy away from risk to the economy when the chips are down. Clinton's 1992 campaign had it right.
 

class26

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And what of all the Tories' many broken election promises? Will none of those ever be implemented? Or is it one rule for the parties you dislike and another rule for the one(s) you happen to agree with?

Flawed reasoning.

Transpeninne and MML electrification resumption announced today
 

TUC

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I can assure you that I am fully aware that the Conservatives have broken promises as well as Labour and so have the Liberal Democrats like after the 2010 election when both the Tories and the Lib Dems promised not to scrap Educational Maintenance Allowance but then they did after the Coalition Agreement was signed which still annoys me now. <(<(<(<(

This thread is about railways though and given that Labour's history of pledging to re-nationalise the railways but then backing down is pretty poor I know that re-nationalisation is not going to happen.

Yes but Gordon Brown left wing, i beg to differ!
Well, he was left of Tony Blair, which is a slightly diffetent measure!
 

coppercapped

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Of course not. That debt will be left behind for the taxpayer to pay off. But let's not forget that it was accumulated by the privatised railway and not the nationalised railway.
I know that I won’t persuade you that things are not as black and white as you represent them, but I should like to make one or two points about debt incurred by the railways for the benefit of our younger, and possibly not so young, readers.:)

BR - a nationalised industry - did accumulate debt, by 1960 it had reached £500 million, the equivalent of over £10 billion today. The annual rate of increase was around £100 million, about £2 billion now. Much of the accumulated debt was either written-off or transferred to the Treasury by the 1962 Transport Act.

BR’s financial position continued to slide and debt built up again. The 1974 Railways Act wrote-off £189 million of the £439 million (just over £4 billion now) of debt accumulated since the 1968 write-down and delayed repayment of the capital debt by 5 years.

Now to jump forward by a quarter of a century! Railtrack was funded entirely by the access payments made by the passenger and freight operating companies. Without rehearsing the events that led up to Railtrack’s administration in 2001, it was clear that Railtrack’s funding was not sufficient. When Network Rail was set up, its initial position was that it could continue with funding equivalent to Railtrack’s. However after the initial dust had settled it became clear that more money was needed, so Network Rail applied to the Rail Regulator for an interim review in 2003.

The Transport Secretary did not permit the Strategic Rail Authority to make it clear to the Rail Regulator during this review what it wanted Network Rail to deliver for the new Control Period. The Rail Regulator therefore assumed ‘same again’ and increased Network Rail’s income accordingly. The Treasury had to pay up.

This had two consequences. The first was the enactment of the Railways Act 2005 in which the Government makes its requirements known through the High Level Output Specification (HLOS) and stated the money it was willing to spend over the next five years - the Statement of Funds Available (SoFA). The other was that the DfT was unwilling - the reasons for which I am not aware - to change the franchise agreements with the TOCs and increase the subsidy/reduce the premia so the TOCs would be indemnified for the higher track access charges but made the payments to Network Rail directly as a grant.

Debt, of itself, is not necessarily ‘a bad thing’. Companies raise money to operate and invest in plant and equipment from a variety of sources, one of which is by borrowing from banks or other financial institutions. Debt only becomes a ‘bad thing’ if the company does not earn enough to service the debt.

In common with many other regulated network service providers, Network Rail finances investment using its ‘regulated asset base’ (RAB). In general terms, the RAB is a financial construct which reflects the value of the assets that Network Rail uses to provide infrastructure services. The regulatory regime provides assurance that Network Rail will be allowed to recover the costs of these assets through access charges. The statutory duties of the Regulator, and its independence from government, mean that investors can rely on this assurance, and are therefore prepared to finance investment in these assets at a cost that reflects the lower level of risk, and over a long period, thereby allowing the costs of the assets to be recovered over a period that better reflects their lifespan. Network Rail started with £15 billion of debt inherited from Railtrack which included, via the privatisation process, a proportion (about £500 million) of the debt built up again by BR in its final years. Over the last 13 years or so as a result of expenditure on the infrastructure the debt has grown to more than £30 billion.
As most people are aware, there has been considerable controversy over whether Network Rail is a public-sector or a private-sector body. Although officially a private sector organisation, the fact that its debts were underwritten by the government, and now count towards the Public Sector Debt means that it is a nationalised industry in all but name.

So, not such a clear difference between privatised and nationalised debt as you make out.
 

HH

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...So, not such a clear difference between privatised and nationalised debt as you make out.

Indeed and what an excellent post. Of course people will still prefer to stick with their prejudices...
 

Railsigns

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Should we take it then that you have no reply to coppercapped beyond this?

You can take it that as it's past midnight, I can manage a quick response to a single-line message but not one that's several paragraphs long.
 

ainsworth74

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You can take it that as it's past midnight, I can manage a quick response to a single-line message but not one that's several paragraphs long.

Fair enough, I look forward to a fuller reply in due course :)
 

yorksrob

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Coppercapped's final statement is that there is not so much difference between public and private debt, which is no more an argument in favour of Privatization than it is for nationalisation.
 

HH

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Coppercapped's final statement is that there is not so much difference between public and private debt, which is no more an argument in favour of Privatization than it is for nationalisation.

Indeed, but despite Railsign's comment, I can't recall seeing anyone forward debt reduction as an argument for privatisation. OTOH it is used constantly as a supposed benefit of nationalisation.

Another interesting thought - Corbyn is looking at TOCs when he mentions nationalisation, but the ROSCOs make far bigger profits and yet he doesn't seem to want to re-nationalise train financing... :lol:
 

yorksrob

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Indeed, but despite Railsign's comment, I can't recall seeing anyone forward debt reduction as an argument for privatisation. OTOH it is used constantly as a supposed benefit of nationalisation.

Another interesting thought - Corbyn is looking at TOCs when he mentions nationalisation, but the ROSCOs make far bigger profits and yet he doesn't seem to want to re-nationalise train financing... :lol:

Not specifically, but the Railways Act is full of references to reductions in subsidy, and one might have expected this to feed through into debt increasing at a lower rate or indeed reducing.

The railways act certainly didn't mention (from what I recall) much about the railway building up public debt to fund infrastructure, so one can assume increase of public debt wasn't envisaged through privatisation.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Fair point about the ROSCO's. I'd be more inclined to replace this aspect of the privatisation model, but more difficult in the medium term I suppose.
 

Dave1987

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I am eagerly awaiting Railsigns response to Coppercapped's excellent post. I don't think anyone will ever convince him that nationalisation isn't the be all and end all though.
 

thenorthern

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Given that the Labour Party seems to be in disarray at the moment with Jeremy Corbyn saying something and then his shadow ministers saying something else has there been any mention of railway re-nationalisation from others in the Shadow Cabinet?

Lilian Greenwood the Shadow Transport Secretary I think is a supporter of re-nationalisation and the Shadow Home Secretary Andy Burnam pledged to support rail re-nationalisation in the leadership election although I think that his pledge was a last ditch attempt to win votes.

Both Yvette Cooper and Liz Kendall I think mentioned they didn't support nationalisation but they are of course now back benchers.
 

lordbusiness

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My main concern is, bearing in mind NR and every TOC has differing pay scales and terms and conditions, any attempt to bring all rail staff into one company will be a mammoth job. Ultimately there will be winners and losers.

I can't see how an employee on one region would accept a lower salary than an equivalent on another region and I can't see the unions accepting a cut in wages.
 

ainsworth74

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What happened when BR was formed out of four disparate companies? Or were the conditions harmonised between them? For that matter what happened when the Big Four were created out of the pre-grouping companies?!
 

HH

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I'm not sure exactly when T&Cs were "harmonised" under BR. I have no idea what happened with the big 4, but suspect that they avoided it as far as they were able.

It's certainly a big issue under re-nationalisation. As is Pensions; it seems likely that current arrangements would be phased out at the least.
 

lordbusiness

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The only way I could see it working would be to have a standard t and c's and payscale. When a franchise ends and gets taken over by the govt you effectively make everyone redundant and sign onto the new contract. Those that don't want it don't have to sign and can look elsewhere.
 

ainsworth74

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Well, depending on what the new conditions and pay scales looked like, that could certainly make industrial relations rather exciting at the end of each franchise!
 

jon0844

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How the unions would act would be very interesting. They want nationalisation, but presumably wouldn't hesitate to fight to stop terms changing for drivers etc.
 

455driver

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FGW oops GWR have 3 sets of drivers on 3 sets of pay, terms and conditions, if they cant sort it out in one franchise what are the chances of all the franchises being harmonised? :lol:
 
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