MML Electrification: progress updates

[Bald Rick]

What's the odds on Corby going exclusively over to Thameslink post electrification? And what would the resulting journey times be like?

Precisely Nil (the probability, not the journey time).

 

[Hophead]

What's the odds on Corby going exclusively over to Thameslink post electrification? And what would the resulting journey times be like?

a): pretty much nil
b): ages

 

[Camden]

But the plan is to take Thameslink up to Corby, isn't it?

And that being the case, does that mean that Corby gets more trains (half EMT, half Thameslink)? Just considering something else posted suggesting that EMT will be express south of Kettering.

That would suggest Wellingborough and Bedford loses its EMT in favour of Thameslink. I can understand a Nottingham, Leicester, Kettering, St Pancras service, but would EMT really want to run a service that calls only at Corby, Kettering, and St Pancras?

 

[OxtedL]

But the plan is to take Thameslink up to Corby, isn't it?

No. (Which is what you are being told above.)

The reasons Thameslink isn't going north of Bedford have been covered quite well on other threads - if you can't find them then I'm sure someone will be able to help.

 

[Camden]

So how does that square with it being suggested elsewhere that EMT will be express south of Kettering? Logically, that would have to mean either a) the suggestion is incorrect, or b) another different service would run, ie. Thameslink, or that c) Wellingborough station would be closing. I assume C isn't likely, so it has to be either A or B.

 

[IrishDave]

So how does that square with it being suggested elsewhere that EMT will be express south of Kettering? Logically, that would have to mean either a) the suggestion is incorrect, or b) another different service would run, ie. Thameslink, or that c) Wellingborough station would be closing. I assume C isn't likely, so it has to be either A or B.

I think the most likely interpretation is that the Corby services will still be run by EMT (or its successors), but the *other* EMT services (those to Nottingham/Derby/Sheffield) which will be non-stop south of Kettering.

 

[asylumxl]

So how does that square with it being suggested elsewhere that EMT will be express south of Kettering? Logically, that would have to mean either a) the suggestion is incorrect, or b) another different service would run, ie. Thameslink, or that c) Wellingborough station would be closing. I assume C isn't likely, so it has to be either A or B.

Given Bald Rick I believe works for TL, I'm inclined to trust his judgement. I'd definitely go with A. Incorrect is a nice way to put it, a total load of bull**** is another.

 

[richieb1971]

So when the cables go up to Kettering and Corby essentially nothing will run on them until they are extended further north.

 

[Lincoln]

So when the cables go up to Kettering and Corby essentially nothing will run on them until they are extended further north.

I would imagine that EMT would be in discussions with the DfT on how to resource the services accordingly, as and when required. In much the same way when there were the HLOS plans a few years ago where they were able to get extra rolling stock to double up the Nottingham to Liverpool services.

Just looking at how fluid rolling stock movements have been between various operators as of late demonstrates how things can be done.

Despite having franchise agreements and so forth, nothing is really set in stone, as there are change mechanisms built into these contracts.

 

[Kettledrum]

I'm guessing we'll see a derogation to allow the HSTs to continue in service for another few years. It can't be cost-effective to do a major rebuild for that sort of timescale, especially in parallel with similar sets for Scotrail which do have a longer assured life.

.

Would it be permissible, just to adapt one HST coach per rake (with plug doors and disabled toilet) - and not the whole rake. That way the best coaches could be refurbished. Once no-longer required on the MML, they could be re-formed into rakes just with the refurbished coaches and moved elsewhere. The coaches not refurbished would be first in line to be scrapped.

 

[Tomnick]

Running the railway smoothly presumably depends on trains presenting at junctions in the right order.

Given this, the potential for early running to cause reactionary delay must me as much as for late running.

I remain horrified by how many freight trains, at least according to RTT, are running seriously early.

Is any action planned to deal with this?

As others have suggested, it really isn't a problem, and certainly not worth getting horrified about. If anyone's going to run something early, then they should make sure that it can at least get to the next place where it can be regulated, without delaying anything else. If there's a margin to get a freight train across a busy junction ahead of its booked path, then it makes perfect sense to me to do so, because it'll be out of the way then - you never know what might happen in the meantime, and a delay to something else might mean that the path that's so freed suddenly becomes very useful!

If we run something early, without good reason (such as to avoid a specific conflict that we've already identified), and it delays something else as a result, then it gets dobbed as an O-code and we have questions to answer. That's a good enough incentive for me not to pull off early unless I'm really sure that it's the right thing to do, and I'm sure that's exactly what's happened in the cases that you've seen on RTT (assuming that they're not just early, but still in booked order - how early are they, generally?).

 

[edwin_m]

I think EMT would still make some stops south of Kettering, for example a fair few people travel between Luton Airport and the East Midlands.

Nothing to stop them having a smallish fleet of EMUs to run the Corby service and then getting more of the same or something more suitable to longer journeys when electrification gets further north. They might have to build a depot if they can't share Thameslink's facilities, but they would have had to do that a few years later anyway.

 

[swt_passenger]

I thought an EMT EMU service to Corby only had been part of the plans for a while. Isn't it why there is so much discussion in other threads about transferring some units from Southeastern to run it?

 

[Camden]

I take it northbound services from Corby through Oakham are a casualty?

 

[swt_passenger]

I take it northbound services from Corby through Oakham are a casualty?

Not necessarily, they can use a DMU for those particular services, if they are still required.

 

[richieb1971]

Is 4 tracking north of Sharnbrook being documented for implementation?

 

[cle]

So 2tph to Corby, with an alternate Luton, Bedford, Wellingborough, Kettering and Corby?

Won't further out EMT trains need to stop somewhere just to avoid overtaking/catching up?

 

[edwin_m]

So 2tph to Corby, with an alternate Luton, Bedford, Wellingborough, Kettering and Corby?

Won't further out EMT trains need to stop somewhere just to avoid overtaking/catching up?

Some or all of the Corbies (?) could go slow line north of Bedford, depending how much of this is eventually doubled. The slightly lower speed on the slow line is partly offset by not having to cross over north of Bedford and south of Kettering.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I take it northbound services from Corby through Oakham are a casualty?

These were essentially put on as positioning moves to get the Meridians to and from the depot in Derby. Can anyone comment on how well used they are?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Some or all of the Corbies (?) could go slow line north of Bedford, depending how much of this is eventually doubled. The slightly lower speed on the slow line is partly offset by not having to cross over north of Bedford and south of Kettering.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


These were essentially put on as positioning moves to get the Meridians to and from the depot in Derby. Can anyone comment on how well used they are?

And for train crew route retention knowledge - almost all fresh air on the one I travelled on- maybe 10 passengers.

 

[Tomnick]

The services north of Corby never seem to be particularly well loaded, but there's always a few on. The afternoon Up train from Derby, apparently, often has a reasonable number of AP tickets booked on it (slower but cheaper?), but none of the other three go right through. It's certainly correct that they are all essentially positioning moves in connection with the Corby service, so might no longer be viable unless a significant proportion of the Corby service remained diesel operated.

 

[edwin_m]

So unlikely these will continue. Sounds like nowhere near enough passengers to justify running a train specially, and once the electrification works are finished all trains will be electric so can't be diverted that way and there will be no need for route knowledge. Hopefully there will be decent connections at Kettering between Corby and points north.

 

[Tomnick]

Given the regular diversions via Manton, not just as a contingency during disruption but also on several full Sundays each year and one week in every six on midweek nights, that'd certainly be a backward step.

 

[ExRes]

Someone will certainly have to put some thought into the diversion aspect, you get a problem at Market Harborough for instance then the whole system is going to fall apart, remember the Meridian that ripped the track up not so many years ago and caused us to use the Manton diversion for about a week?, that would mean buses from Leicester to Kettering as the only alternative, that's some alternative ......

 

[swt_passenger]

...once the electrification works are finished all trains will be electric...

Not necessarily. DMUs running under the wires to a destination off the wires is commonplace. As I said earlier, if they need to keep the route knowledge and wish to use in service trains to do it they can run the odd Corby train as a Meridian.

Depending on where the future EMT EMU depot is, it could make sense for the first up train and last down train to be operated by Meridians, it could save some empty running by EMUs.

It is not much different to SWT running a DMU to Portsmouth Harbour late at night on services that are 444s or 450s for the rest of the day...

 

[Kettledrum]

Someone will certainly have to put some thought into the diversion aspect, you get a problem at Market Harborough for instance then the whole system is going to fall apart, remember the Meridian that ripped the track up not so many years ago and caused us to use the Manton diversion for about a week?, that would mean buses from Leicester to Kettering as the only alternative, that's some alternative ......

Using the Oakham route with Thunderbird diesel locos pulling stranded EMUs could still provide a diversion, as long as enough drivers signed the route etc

 

[edwin_m]

Not necessarily. DMUs running under the wires to a destination off the wires is commonplace. As I said earlier, if they need to keep the route knowledge and wish to use in service trains to do it they can run the odd Corby train as a Meridian.

Depending on where the future EMT EMU depot is, it could make sense for the first up train and last down train to be operated by Meridians, it could save some empty running by EMUs.

It is not much different to SWT running a DMU to Portsmouth Harbour late at night on services that are 444s or 450s for the rest of the day...

EMT or its successor is highly unlikely to have any Meridians after electrification reaches Nottingham and Sheffield, since they are only used on these routes and a few positioning moves. And running a mixture of train types uses more capacity, especially south of Bedford where it is critical.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Using the Oakham route with Thunderbird diesel locos pulling stranded EMUs could still provide a diversion, as long as enough drivers signed the route etc

Perhaps so, but unless the passenger drivers are also trained to drive the Thunderbirds then other drivers would need to be hired in for diversions, presumably from the same operator as the locos. So the question of route knowledge for the regular electric drivers doesn't arise. It might still arise for guards but I believe the rules for maintaining guard route knowledge are less stringent than for drivers.

 

[swt_passenger]

EMT or its successor is highly unlikely to have any Meridians after electrification reaches Nottingham and Sheffield, since they are only used on these routes and a few positioning moves. And running a mixture of train types uses more capacity, especially south of Bedford where it is critical.

When you wrote 'when the electrification works is finished' I thought you were referring only to the initial work to Corby. Others in the discussion seemed to be referring only to the Corby scenario, not the whole line, but I may have been mistaken...

 

[40129]

And here lies the age old problem with electrification, i.e. how many / which diversionary routes do you electrify and at what cost in terms of extra work if you do electrify or extra disruption if you don't.

In the West Midlands the New Street - Stafford route is an of example both scenarios in that if the line is blocked between New Street and Bushbury Junction trains (including electric) can be diverted via the Grand Junction route, subject to crew route knowledge. However, if the problem is between Bushbury Junction and Stafford electric trains cannot be diverted as there are no wires via either Hendesford or Shrewsbury.

So the question is would it be worthwhile electrifying the route via Oakham?

 

[asylumxl]

I think it would be worthwhile to electrify the route via Oakham, particularly when you consider there are no other diversionary routes. I imagine the Welland Viaduct may require some work though.

Obviously I do not pull the purse strings, but to my mind it makes sense to electrify now rather than spend more later. It sees quite regular use as a diversionary route compared to some. On top of that it'd also mean less work would need doing if the decision was ever made to electrify the rest of the Brum-Stansted route.

 

[ExRes]

And here lies the enormous negative of electric trains

In the MML case there is only one choice, DBS at Toton, who would either have to have 67s permanently based there as thunderbirds or could only provide non-train heat freight locos, they would also have to be capable of providing a pool of drivers able to carry out thunderbird duties unless EMT put their corporate hands in their pockets to train up, and keep trained, EMT drivers, some chance of Stagecoach agreeing to that. Ground staff would also have to be provided to couple/uncouple at Leicester and Kettering

Electrification may be the environmentally favoured way forward but boy, does it cause problems and additional costs, every single time the wires come down through weather or technical reasons these dreadful and evil diesels are going to have to come to the rescue if a service is to be provided