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UK Steel Crisis
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Marton
Member
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- 9 Nov 2008
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the site hasn't bloody well closed yet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am out before I get banned. I will leave you all to it. I just wish some of you could look at what really matters and that isn't whether you can still get of the train at a small insignificant station.
Well said
1 700 jobs. That's the best part of 10 000 working people affected as the economic knock on hits.
RichmondCommu
Established Member
Well exactly! Rather than the old "Shack Attack" why not spare a thought for the people who won't sleep tonight because they don't know how they will continue to pay the mortgage or afford Christmas for their children. A sense of perspective wouldn't go amiss here.
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Try telling that to all those people who have lost their jobs today. I'm sorry but a few trade outlets i.e. Selco and a Subway won't go anywhere near to replacing 1700 jobs not to mention all the other indirect jobs that will go. What the Government needs to do is help make steel making in this country more competitive so at least we can compete with the rest of Europe even if China continue to beat us on labour cost.
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If you get banned for that then quite frankly some people on this forum have got a screw loose.
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Oh yes and of course they pay a fantastic wage and offer highly skilled engineering based work. Oh but wait....
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It would be very interesting if we were to place you in a darkened room with all those who have lost their jobs today.
Or perhaps you don't have a mortgage to pay or children to feed?
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And what kind of career do you think those people who have lost their jobs are going to have in Redcar and the rest of that part of the NE? McDonalds, Subway?
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CockneySparrow
Member
Probably not that easy, without the cost scenario to demolish the current site other factors come into the equation such as the land might be contaminated
GatwickDepress
Established Member
I'm sure the Job Centre will find some "pro bono" Poundland retail "work experience" for them...
GrimsbyPacer
Established Member
This news is a terrible blow to the whole country.
Steel will always be needed to help the economy grow.
How will any future industrialisation be able to materialise without steel?
How many plants are left?
I know of Forge Masters in Sheffield, Tata in Scunthorpe, and another in South Wales, is there any others?
I hope the steelworkers get employment in other nearby skilled jobs, Hitachi or Nissan maybe??
Steel will always be needed to help the economy grow.
How will any future industrialisation be able to materialise without steel?
How many plants are left?
I know of Forge Masters in Sheffield, Tata in Scunthorpe, and another in South Wales, is there any others?
I hope the steelworkers get employment in other nearby skilled jobs, Hitachi or Nissan maybe??
RichmondCommu
Established Member
In terms of making basic steel slab (which is what Redcar does) the problem is China can do it much more cheaply due to lower labour costs and are basically flooding the market. Forge Masters do not produce steel slab and I'm not sure what comes out of Scunthorpe or South Wales. Tata also have a plant in Stocksbridge near Sheffield (on the old Woodhead route) and in Rotherham.
What the Government needs to do is help steel production in this country be more competitive with the rest of Europe.
Poolie
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I'm surprised no one has mentioned the bail out of the (w)bankers that cost hard working men so much of their taxes that could have been put to far better use like finding a cure for greed...........
A slight oversight on my part as I thought I'd posted a note but obviously didn't! Earlier on I moved some posts from a different thread into this one as they were not wholly relevant to the discussion about the future of the station British Steel Redcar. If anyone wishes to talk about the station please do so here and leave this thread for discussion about the mothballing of the plant.
RichmondCommu
Established Member
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the bail out of the (w)bankers that cost hard working men so much of their taxes that could have been put to far better use like finding a cure for greed...........
You don't have to work in an investment bank to be greedy or selfish! Would you have rather seen the banks fail?
Again, I have to ask, why make a special case out of these people? Many (most?) people have to experience losing their job at some time in their life.
You simply can't assume that any job will carry on forever. Why should steel workers have guaranteed jobs but not others?
You are implying that there are only a very small number of career options in the area. Yes, that is the common perception, but there are bound to be people working in a variety of industries if you actually looked into it. Is there a bus to Middlesbrough? Middlesbrough is a sizeable place so presumably sustains a wide range of industries. I bet there are even white collar jobs there. Obviously working away from home like in "Auf Wiedersehen Pet" is another possibility. I grew up in Rochdale, a supposedly run down town with no prospects so I moved to the supposedly "rich" south, but most of my peers from school still live there and seem to be enjoying a decent life with the usual holidays, kids, cars, houses. Arguably I might have been better off staying. I would probably have a bigger house at least.
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Tata Port Talbot (south Wales) in an integrated mill focused on producing slab for further processing into strip either on site or offsite at Shotton (prefinished strip) and Llanwern (hot dip galvanised strip/coil).
Tata Scunthorpe is another integrated mill focused on producing slab for further processing into long products (plate, section, wire rod, tube and rail). Plate and rail can be produced on site, section is produced by transporting slab to Tata Tesside Beam Mill (ironically enough), tube is produced by transporting slab to Hartlepool, Dalzell and Clydebridge.
Stocksbridge is speciality processor that remelts into very high purity steel targeted at aerospace, oil and gas sectors.
Rotherham makes engineering steel products again mainly from slab produced elsewhere.
The UK steel industry is very efficient in global terms and against other European mills the problem is that whole industry is hurting due to the glut of mainly low cost Chinese slab available. Anyway the steel industry across Europe has been closing plants and shedding jobs all year and for the last few years.
The problem with SSI Redcar is it just made basic slab and bloom the bottom end commodity product of the steel industry, if you are a steel producer to make any money you need to convert slab into a higher value product. SSI had a plan do this at their strip mills in Thailand, but I'd suspect it was and is cheaper to buy slab on the open market currently.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
The site hasn't bloody well closed yet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Exactly so and a reason why I wish that you had not worded the title of this thread in the way that you did, as that could have given the wrong impression.
"Destroyed" is a very definite and emotive word to have used in the title of this thread, so in a way, I am glad to see that you subsequently made the posting above to correct matters.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
What title would you like to see? A more bland and middle of the road one that doesn't offend?
It will be very hard, if not impossible, to reopen the blast furnace once it is turned off. It took months and millions of pounds when SSI restarted production.
So you'd rather I just say it's a terrible situation and they've got no future at all. As the title of the thread says, you'd rather we just stuck to the "destroyed" rhetoric rather than give those who've lost their jobs hope :roll:
Of course it wouldn't. I wasn't suggesting it would (can't see what gave you the impression I would think this). You'd need to have a much bigger vision.
Well yes that would be nice wouldn't it, and subsidising production would no doubt have the desired effect. Out of interest are you talking about the same Conservative government which believes in the unfaltering ability the invisible hand of the market to ensure economic success?
DarloRich
Veteran Member
I get you are angry you got no support when your employer ran into difficulties. Is there some jealousy there i wonder? You were forced to complete in the race to the bottom so all should have the same?
In the north east we try to look after our own. If you were in that position you would be supported. Sadly we have a great deal of experience of dealing with redundancy and unemployment.
you are, once again, talking about things you know little or nothing about! It is also clear you have never been to either Middlesbrough, Teesside or the North East.
they have sod all future if the works are knocked down. Suggesting housing use show little knowledge of the area or the vast level of contaminant there. Plus you need employment for people to be able to purchase the houses
I prefer that if the government wont support the works they at least throw in enough money to make a difference retraining and regeneration wise and try and attract some decent inward investment to help begin an economic revival.
They wont of course...............
Sadly the bigger picture is exactly as RichmondComm presents. The replacement "industry" will be zero hours contracts service industry based employment, if any employment at all.
odd isn't it how market forces are tinkered with when it suits Tory types - what was needed was bridging finance to try and find a solution before closure and proper financial support to retrain and reemploy employees now IF a buyer can not be found.
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I don't think any profession should be given special dispensation for employment, but I do think any large supplier of jobs especially if the area is impoverished should have a degree of protection. Alternatively if the main source of employment must close then options should be considered to replace that large source of employment in the area with another large source of skilled employment. But I don't mean by opening yet another retail park near the site of the steel works that may not even provide a quarter of the jobs that the steel works did. I'm talking locating new a Train works there for building IEPs or large warehousing units or even encouraging other expanding businesses to set up base there.
We need viable options for these people, not this race to the bottom that some people are implying for the people of Teeside.
This on your bike attitude is very harmful, the problem is if people move to where the jobs are, it then makes that area with jobs very overcrowded and housing prices are allowed to rocket. Just look at what's happened to the South, in my hometown of Reading every spare plot of land is being built on and the transport connections have to expand more and more due to congestion, taking up yet more precious land and creating more pollution. Yet up north, towns are allowed to decay and descend into poverty. We need a regional policy in this country where expanding businesses are encouraged to distribute themselves across the country rather than being clustered in one area, thus alleviating overcrowding in some areas and creating employment in other areas.
For a lot of people going abroad for work isn't an option either, there's just so many considerations to make. Auf Wiedesehen Pet still explored the detrimental effects that a person working abroad can have on their family and I'm sure a lot of people put their family before work.
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There is only media interest when it is a big employer. When most people lose their job in the North East at a small company, or one employing middle class people, there is the same "sympathy" as if you lose your job in Surrey, that is none. The level of media interest is mostly to do with company size and whether it employs blue collar workers. A big factory in the south may actually get some publicity if it lays people off, but not if the same numbers of people lose their job in 100 companies, whether it is in the north or south.
Actually I've been on every rail line in England and explored the North East with an Explorer. And I thought I showed you my "poor northerner" credentials in my last post? We are all northerners here and know about the culture of hopelessness that can exist. But I was pointing out that even in such "bleak" areas, most people live normal lives. It is not as if there is 0% unemployment in London and 100% unemployment in Rochdale or Teeside.
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ExRes
Established Member
I appreciate the anger at job losses even though I've never faced such a situation myself, surely though the talk of expecting the Government to 'support' the industry needs some explanation, thanks to our masters in the EU I doubt that the Government could support anything or any company without falling foul of EU regulations
The lack of government intervention is more likely to be a result of their ideological opposition to the state's role in interfering in economic markets rather than what our so-called EU masters say (these 'masters' of course happen to be member state governments anyway)
EU rules, particularly on state aid, do permit the state to intervene and financially support strategically important industries and services, even where competition in the single market may be undermined (which is not an issue here as I understand it is the Chinese market where the root of the issue lies). Indeed such powers are regularly used by other EU member states (and indeed the UK when the banks needed to be bailed out). In short, saying the EU is not permitting the government to do anything is false.
Of course at a time when the government wishes to undermine the EU's position it makes perfect sense for them to use the it as a scapegoat for why they cannot provide financial support. The fact is they can, but won't. Saying the EU won't permit it is not strictly true, but serves two of the government's purposes:
1. It gives the impression that the government's hands are tied and so absolves them from responsibility for the situation.
2. It further garners support for EU reform by (incorrectly) showing how it hampers economic wellbeing.
At this point I feel it is also worth pointing out the EU has invested significant sums in many industrial areas in the UK (look at the RESIDER and RECHAR programmes for example, which saw significant investment to assist coal and steel producing regions across the EU - the UK of course was one of the primary beneficiaries). The Tees Valley and Durham region is currently classified as Objective II (or a "transition region") by the EU. This means it is eligible for significant sums of money through the European Structural and Investment Funds (ESIF) to assist in situations such as these, either to support regeneration, the retention of skilled industry or economic realignment. This pot of money would be ideal for this situation. Of course the UK is the only EU member state which has centralized the distribution of structural funds (much to the EU's dismay), so rather than local communities deciding where the money goes HM Treasury does, and much prefers to use it as a way offset the UK's contribution to the EU budget.
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they have sod all future if the works are knocked down. Suggesting housing use show little knowledge of the area or the vast level of contaminant there. Plus you need employment for people to be able to purchase the houses
I will admit I had not considered the contamination aspect. And of course there is more to it than simply building houses.
Exactly. We find ourselves in agreement.
We continue to agree.
It doesn't have to be that way. Of course it requires investment, but it similarly requires a willingness to re-orientate the economy away from steel production to something else (although I do not know what).
You expected something different?
But this strikes me as a rather short term solution. What if the plant opens again. How long before we end up in the same situation? This doesn't provide long term security at all. Some posters have made interesting points above regarding the actual steel product manufactured at Redcar (i.e. a low end basic commodity) so maybe reorientating the output towards the more higher end products would be a possible solution if maintaining the steel plant at all costs is deemed to be the most viable solution.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
How much of a comparison can you draw to what happened at Ravenscraig in 1992 to the current situation in Redcar?
muddythefish
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Since their election victory in May this Tory government has "paused" (cancelled) various northern electrification schemes and now refused to step in when another piece of northern heavy manufacturing looks to be heading for the scrapyard.
So much for Gideon's great "Northern Powerhouse. A cynic would say it was nothing more than a headline-grabbing election gimmick.
So much for Gideon's great "Northern Powerhouse. A cynic would say it was nothing more than a headline-grabbing election gimmick.
CockneySparrow
Member
Correct it is cheaper for the government to subsidise a percentage of jobs, in fact those jobs that they subsidise the individual worker ends up paying tax through their wages which leads to most if all of the subsidy going back to the government, the worker then has money to spend in the wider economy like going to the pub, eating out, etc, etc as well which are taxed which means more money going to the government, this in turn keeps the pub or wherever open and which in turn keeps the pub staff employed then it repeats itself, the list goes on and on
So realistically a small subsidy from the government costs nothing it in fact generates money by keeping the economy moving, it has knock on effects
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At the same time the worker is not claiming anything like dole money, housing benefit, free prescriptions etc, not to mention that an area where there is low employment there is more crime of petty theft which is avoided if people are working
muddythefish
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There are precedents for governments stepping in to help struggling companies - Rolls Royce in the early 1970s being a prime example, ironically by a Conservative administration, when it got into trouble with the RB211 engine. .
R-R was eventually returned to the private sector and is now one of our few world-class engineering companies.
This Tory govt could do the same for Redcar if it would only drop its neo-liberal free market ideology and look to the long term health of the national economy.
R-R was eventually returned to the private sector and is now one of our few world-class engineering companies.
This Tory govt could do the same for Redcar if it would only drop its neo-liberal free market ideology and look to the long term health of the national economy.
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Metrailway
Member
In general you are right, however in this particular industry (steel), the EC have ruled that there is an overcapacity issue in Europe and state aid rules do forbid the use of emergency loans or government guarantees to bail out steel manufacturers in trouble. So the current Government is correct in their stance.
However, other member states (in particular France and Italy) get around this by using large amounts of state funding disguised as for 'environmental' purposes to subsidise their steel production.
Unfortunately the use of loopholes or outright ignoring of single market rules is common in certain member states meaning that manufacturing and production in this country is at a disadvantage.
The UK tends to have the lowest number of single market infringements out of the major EU states. For instance the number of pending court cases for the UK is 35 whilst Germany and France have over 50 pending cases each and for Italy this figure is 67. Historically, the UK also tends to 'win' in a large percentage of its cases when compared to Italy, Germany and France.
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Robertj21a
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You seem to be 'muddying' (!) the water somewhat. Electrification schemes that were paused were not just in the north and Redcar is the result of worldwide over-supply.
muddythefish
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The trans-Pennine scheme is in the north obviously while the MML cancellation affected the north too. And where are the govt announcements with help for Teesside ? These are big blows to the northern economy and make a mockery of the "Northern Powerhouse" idea. I don't know what point you're trying to make.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
Like with the Grangemouth oil refinery, I get the feeling there is a lot of brinksmanship coming from the (foreign) owners of former nationalised industries. The Thais would rather invest our government's money rather than their own, therefore they threatened to close the plant.
Unlike Grangemouth, where the Scottish Executive coughed up, in Redcar's case the Government have refused to pay out and so the Thais have closed the plant.
I think the EU regulations are a red herring- the Government cheerfully ignore them when it suits them- but I can't blame the Government for refusing to bail out the Thai asset strippers.
I'm certainly no Tory, and I feel so angry that it has come to this for the north east, largely blaming the Tories for creating the mess in the first place after British Steel was cack-handedly privatised.
HSTEd
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I might just be an unreconstructed socialist but steel production is a critical national defence metric.
After all you cant build ships and tanks out of management consultants
After all you cant build ships and tanks out of management consultants
Though our armoured vehicle industry has pretty much withered to nothing thanks to MoD and Government incompetence (I'm honestly not sure that we could produce an MBT anymore though we could probably manage less complex vehicles like APCs) and we only have one shipyard each capable of complex surface warship or submarine construction and they're only scaled to produce at a fairly slow rate.
The manufactoring cupboard, when it comes to weapons, is pretty bare these days.
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