Confusion over tickets to station groups e.g. 'Liverpool Stations'

[sheff1]

Much like how a visitor to Birmingham may beleive a ticket for Birmingham Stations would be valid to Birmingham International which of course it is not. How would a first time railway user know that from looking at an unfamiliar screen and quite rightly typing in B I R M on the TVM?

I agree there could be confusion in thinking a Birmingham Stations ticket would be valid to International (same issue with Liverpool Stations ticket and Liverpool South Parkway) but only after you have one in your possession. Typing in B-I-R-M on a TVM would bring up Birmingham International** as an option on the machines I have seen - I have never encountered a TVM which is not programmed with individual names.

** I have a vague idea that I have seen this displayed as Birmingham Int which, of course, would not be particuarly helpful to a novice traveller - but that is another discussion.

 

[8J]

Manchester Airport with a Manchester Stns ticket is a common one too

 

[cuccir]

Reasonable people make stupid mistakes/logical leaps, particularly when in a rush.

A friend of mine was surprised when I told him that he couldn't use one of the 'Cross Country' only tickets (they existed for ~6 months in 2010ish I think) between Durham-Newcastle on an East Coast train - he was reading 'Cross Country' as 'long-distance/inter-city' trains, and thought it excluded only the TransPennine/Northern Rail trains on the route.

Ultimately, people have a responsibility to not enter into transactions with complete naiveity. I do wonder if TVMs selling to group stations might have an intermediate screen with a list of valid stations that passengers have to agree to? It would slow things down and make TVMs more complex though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ultimately, people have a responsibility to not enter into transactions with complete naiveity. I do wonder if TVMs selling to group stations might have an intermediate screen with a list of valid stations that passengers have to agree to? It would slow things down and make TVMs more complex though.

True, or we could just rename the confusing STNS suffix. Would something like "X CITY CEN STNS" or "X MAIN STNS" fit on the new ticket format? I guess it would. That's the only thing I can think of that sums up what it is (TERMINALS only really works for London as they aren't termini in most other cities).

 

[swt_passenger]

It isn't always going to be a problem. "Portsmouth Stations" is at the end of the line, so a ticket to there will cover you for the other stations you might easily consider to be in Portsmouth. (There might be an edge case if coming from the Island Line, not sure what they sell...)

In the Liverpool case, perhaps they could be "Liverpool Terminals"? cf London Terminals?

 

[Camden]

I find this reply quite offensive, Wavetree is a Station in Liverpool so could easily be misunderstood not just by visitors to City but also locals not used to using the system.

It's railwayspeak and has been in use since, well, a long time ago.

It's a useful feature for those that know about it and understand it, as it enables travel to any station within that group, opening up journey possibilities.

London Stations, Birmingham Stations, Liverpool Stations all exist as groups.

When someone arrives from London Euston, they can use their Liverpool Stations ticket to get, for example, to James Street. Very handy.

Unfortunately, I don't really see too much of a way around this in terms of catering for people who don't know about this and who may make a mistake, but it's rare to hear anyone make the mistake mentioned, so perhaps any change would be a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

The ticket was purchased from Hunts Cross, another part of the same city. I think there is only so much leeway you can give people, and someone in Liverpool not having awareness of how their own transportation system works I think is not going to get much sympathy from anyone, least of all the TOC, I'm afraid.

FYI, if it's offpeak travel, a Saveaway is just over £5 and enables all day travel throughout Liverpool, and for onpeak travel there are some good value zone tickets available from your PTE Merseytravel. http://www.merseytravel.gov.uk/Pages/Welcome.aspx

Your city is lucky to have such excellent and comprehensive transportation, in a country that typically does not do these things very well, so after you've gotten over ponying up the penalty given (and please do just pay it, because if it goes to court you'll only end up paying more - by all means after settling the matter complain to the TOC about the fact the ticket he had cost more than the one he should have had), I'd recommend getting to know what's on offer.

In the Liverpool case, perhaps they could be "Liverpool Terminals"? cf London Terminals?

Yes that's not a bad idea. I think as well they could do with having a One Day Travelcard option, which would then cover such journeys for people coming into the city (note though that this is already available for the OP, as the ticket was from Hunts Cross within the PTE area).

 

[Bletchleyite]

It isn't always going to be a problem. "Portsmouth Stations" is at the end of the line, so a ticket to there will cover you for the other stations you might easily consider to be in Portsmouth. (There might be an edge case if coming from the Island Line, not sure what they sell...)

In the Liverpool case, perhaps they could be "Liverpool Terminals"? cf London Terminals?

Thing is they're not termini...LIVERPL CITY CEN STNS would work though.

But in some cases it'll be possible to specify e.g. GLASGOW CEN/QST. You could probably do BIRMINGHM NST/MST/SHIL or something, or PORTSMOUTH SS/HARB or similar. Then it's reasonably clear what it means. Only leaves a few with more than 2 or 3 stations requiring another abbreviation.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes that's not a bad idea. I think as well they could do with having a One Day Travelcard option, which would then cover such journeys for people coming into the city (note though that this is already available for the OP, as the ticket was from Hunts Cross within the PTE area).

Yes, I agree. PlusBus is good but it would improve that further.

 

[Camden]

It's going to be difficult to define any wording that works for everywhere.

Even City Centre Stations, how would you handle the zone being expanded to encompass two more stations each on the Northern Line and Wirral Line, plus Edge Hill, as part of zone reformation. They'd be different definitions with a Merseyside "city centre zone" conflicting with Liverpool City Cen Stns meaning just the four. And if you expanded the stations group out, you couldn't fit them all on (as well as that I couldn't see that happening as it would mean giving up fares revenue).

For the sake of one or two people misunderstanding, leaving it as it is is probably best, and just make additions to the available tickets to accommodate peoples desires for wider travel.

 

[Starmill]

Someone doesn't have fully comprehensive knowledge of the minutae of fares in one area, which are radically different from city to city, therefore they deserve to pay an £80 settlement the first time a mistake is made?

 

[34D]

My local railway stations are Cross Gates and Garforth.

If people from far away want to know where I live, I say 'Leeds'.

The price of long distance tickets to the three stations mentioned is usually the same.

It would be simpler from one perspective for tickets with 'Leeds' on them to be valid to any station in the council area (so woodlesford micklefield horsforth guiseley pudsey morley).

Of course, I would still want to have my cake and eat it by still having cheap fares ie garforth to east garforth £1.50.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Someone doesn't have fully comprehensive knowledge of the minutae of fares in one area, which are radically different from city to city, therefore they deserve to pay an £80 settlement the first time a mistake is made?

A regular £20 PF slap on the wrist would seem more reasonable, but that's another debate.

 

[Alan White]

It seems to me that there are two issues here: railway terminology and TVM interface design.

The railway still expects its customers to have an in-depth knowledge of the industry and especially the complex fares system. Worse, it uses industry jargon to its customers in an age when all other industries long ago realised that they have happier, better informed customers if things are explained in terms the customer understands. Terms like "Liverpool Stations", "London Terminals" and, to pick an example from tony_mac's image, "Zone R1256 London Std Super Off-Peak Day TC" are nonsense to those outside the industry and it should be obvious to anyone why customers might be confused.

I long ago learned to ignore the so-called "Ticket Quick Select!" summary screen on TVMs and go straight to the always less prominent A-Z station listing. This ensures I get the destination I want rather than some industry-defined and unexplained description which might or might not be where I want. I would remove the ticket options from the first screen and instead invite the customer to select from a list of three or four named destinations commonly travelled to from that TVM and then present the ticket types subsequently.

Anyway, does anyone actually buy from the summary screen? I suspect that all it does is to slow down the process because newer customers think there might be something useful on it so read it all before realising there isn't.

Sometimes, however, even the A-Z causes issues. A couple of years ago, not long after I'd started using trains more frequently and before I learned more about ticketing*, I went to my local TVM to buy a ticket for a journey to the other side of London. I'd already researched the price so I knew what I'd pay but when that ticket appeared on the screen it said "Not via London". This confused me because I knew I had to change at Clapham Junction and CLJ is, to everyone but the railway, in London. I selected the ticket anyway because it was the only match to the one I wanted even though the restriction had not been presented when I researched it. Yet another example of railwayspeak and poor information.


* More usefully, when I learned about Oyster (even though I travel from outside London). This is the way all train journeys should be paid for: tap in at the start, tap out at the end, automatically get charged the cheapest fare for the journey. No planning, no research, take whichever route is convenient, no need to understand industry jargon. Will it ever happen? Probably not in my lifetime: SWT's smartcard is laughably complex, doesn't even work at all their own stations, doesn't hold cash so you still have to buy "tickets" beforehand, and can't even be ordered online .

 

[Statto]

It isn't always going to be a problem. "Portsmouth Stations" is at the end of the line, so a ticket to there will cover you for the other stations you might easily consider to be in Portsmouth. (There might be an edge case if coming from the Island Line, not sure what they sell...)

In the Liverpool case, perhaps they could be "Liverpool Terminals"? cf London Terminals?

Having Liverpool Terminals is awkward as you have the Wirral Line loop which passes through all the terminal stations in the City Centre, then there's Moorfields where [unless Northern Line platforms at Central are closed], trains don't start/terminate there. Liverpool Terminals will only work for trains to/from Lime Street high level platforms.

 

[swt_passenger]

Having Liverpool Terminals is awkward as you have the Wirral Line loop which passes through all the terminal stations in the City Centre, then there's Moorfields where [unless Northern Line platforms at Central are closed], trains don't start/terminate there. Liverpool Terminals will only work for trains to/from Lime Street high level platforms.

We cope down here with Vauxhall being a London Terminal that only has through trains. There are a few others with half and half, such as London Bridge, Blackfriars etc...

 

[steve a]

Sometimes, however, even the A-Z causes issues. A couple of years ago, not long after I'd started using trains more frequently and before I learned more about ticketing*, I went to my local TVM to buy a ticket for a journey to the other side of London. I'd already researched the price so I knew what I'd pay but when that ticket appeared on the screen it said "Not via London". This confused me because I knew I had to change at Clapham Junction and CLJ is, to everyone but the railway, in London. I selected the ticket anyway because it was the only match to the one I wanted even though the restriction had not been presented when I researched it. Yet another example of railwayspeak and poor information.

I was confused by the terminology a few years ago when I bought a "not underground" season ticket. I thought this just meant I couldn't use the actual ticket on the Underground but could still use the routes if I paid the extra. However, according to the RPI who gave me a PF, it meant I wasn't allowed to use any "valid"routes on NRE that included Underground transfers...

 

[CheesyChips]

There are a lot of issues here that relate to passenger understanding but then on the other hand, the complex nature of the railways means there are always going to be elements of complexity in ticketing. This isn't the customer's fault and the TOCs certainly didn't create the Victorian system they inherited.

The happy medium could be for the railways to acknowledge that on occasion people will make mistakes and simply allow the customer to rectify this at the point of contact with railway staff/ticket barriers etc rather than just issuing penalties, OOC settlements etc as a knee-jerk response to an incorrect ticket. This wouldn't be an insane idea surely?

A person arriving at Manchester Airport with a Manchester Stations ticket has clearly made some effort to purchase the correct ticket as opposed to somebody who has no ticket whatsoever.

Yes some people will take the biscuit, but that's true of any customer base in any industry.

 

[bb21]

* More usefully, when I learned about Oyster (even though I travel from outside London). This is the way all train journeys should be paid for: tap in at the start, tap out at the end, automatically get charged the cheapest fare for the journey. No planning, no research, take whichever route is convenient, no need to understand industry jargon. Will it ever happen? Probably not in my lifetime: SWT's smartcard is laughably complex, doesn't even work at all their own stations, doesn't hold cash so you still have to buy "tickets" beforehand, and can't even be ordered online .

Oyster has its own problems. There is a lot of good about it, but let's not pretend that it is the solution for nationwide ticketing.

There are plenty of previous threads discussing these issues so I won't go into details here.

 

[strowger]

Deleted

 

[Bletchleyite]

I genuinely didn't know Vauxhall was in London Terminals. Shows how confusing it all is!

 

[Romilly]

If I opt for Pontefract Stations on a journey planner, the planner converts it to a request for Monkhill or Baghill.

Whereas Pontefract Group for Routeing Guide purposes consists of all 3 Pontefract stations and Glasshoughton and Castleford.

 

[swt_passenger]

I genuinely didn't know Vauxhall was in London Terminals. Shows how confusing it all is!

I know!

As an aside to this, you've possibly seen the current thread in 'disputes' about the chap with a delay claim involving a cross-London leg from Vauxhall to Euston. So I thought I'd have a quick look to see what the Vauxhall to London transfer time is...

No such luck. But if Vauxhall is a 'real' London Terminal, (rather than just a normal station) why isn't it shown on that matrix of standard cross-London transfer times in the NRTT?

 

[Jonfun]

I'll be honest, living in Liverpool, I'd struggle to find any possible way of suggesting that Wavertree would count as a Liverpool Station. It's not, as some seem to be suggesting, just on the outskirts of the city centre. At a push you might be able to say Edge Hill is, but Wavertree's a fair way beyond and is very definitely it's own locality. A similar example would be Levenshulme or Mauldeth Road in Manchester.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'll be honest, living in Liverpool, I'd struggle to find any possible way of suggesting that Wavertree would count as a Liverpool Station. It's not, as some seem to be suggesting, just on the outskirts of the city centre. At a push you might be able to say Edge Hill is, but Wavertree's a fair way beyond and is very definitely it's own locality. A similar example would be Levenshulme or Mauldeth Road in Manchester.

It's a railway station which is within the boundaries of the City of Liverpool.

When dealing with first-time rail users, you have to throw away *all* the railway logic you already know. It's difficult to do that.

 

[6Gman]

I'm pretty sure that in the old days the ticket would show "Liverpool L St, Centl or Moorfields" or similar.

I've nearly been caught out by "Crewe to Manchester Stations" - does that cover going to Victoria via Salford Crescent? No it doesn't. So why not "Crewe to Manchester Picc. or Oxfd Rd"?

 

[Haywain]

I can reasonably accept that point of view if we were originally talking about a long distance journey, but we weren't. The journey that started this was from Hunt's Cross which might equally be seen as a Liverpool station. And whilst Liverpool Stations might have been on top of the list of popular destinations on the TVM, there will almost certainly have been other Liverpool stations on the same list. That alone might have (and probably should have) caused a bit more thought about what the terms meant.

 

[AngusH]

That alone might have (and probably should have) caused a bit more thought about what the terms meant.

I disagree.

I believe multiple choices where some of the choices aren't fully defined and may overlap over choices without further explanation are wrong.

It should either be clearly defined or removed.

Remember the test for fairness is the "average consumer", not some notional expert in railway ticketing.

Here's are some quotes with the original ORR source document:

1) "containing false information or deceiving or being likely to deceive the average consumer (even if the information they contain is factually correct),"
2) "Practices may be misleading by failing to give consumers the information they need to make an informed choice."

http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0017/5552/guidance_on_our_consumer_law_role_310310.pdf

 

[DaveNewcastle]

"deceiving"?
I think we might be going too far in demonising the Rail Operators.
Deception requires false representation, dishonesty, intention to make a gain from the false representation, and knowing that the representation was untrue.

Does that apply to the sale of a Liverpool Stations ticket?

 

[Mag_seven]

Out of interest if you actually type in "Moorfields" to the TVM at Hunt's Cross rather than pressing "Liverpool Stations" what destination is actually printed on the ticket - Moorfields or Liverpool Stations?

 

[AngusH]

"deceiving"?

I was perhaps not specific enough in my quoting.

I was specifically thinking of the third part: the statement "being likely to deceive the average consumer (even if the information they contain is factually correct)"


Unless there is a sign to the effect that "Liverpool stations" doesn't include every station in the geographic area of Liverpool, how will the consumer know that some stations are not included?

 

[LeylandLen]

It is reasonable to assume Manchester United play IN Manchester , particularly for any foreign visitors, of whom there are many, not always on match days.
Yet 'MUFC Halt' does not come under 'Manchester Stations' as you need a separate ticket to get there from Man Piccadilly/Oxford Road , as I found out to my cost recently !!