I don't see how this can been seen as ridiculous or complicated. As a visitor to the city, if I wanted to travel to a station called Wavertree that is was I would look for on the machine by searching under 'W'. I, and imagine virtually everyone else, would follow the same logic if visiting any other city.
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Confusion over tickets to station groups e.g. 'Liverpool Stations'
- Thread starter sheff1
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I don't see how this can been seen as ridiculous or complicated. As a visitor to the city, if I wanted to travel to a station called Wavertree that is was I would look for on the machine by searching under 'W'. I, and imagine virtually everyone else, would follow the same logic if visiting any other city.
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
You know the railway, though. I personally think the "X Stns" destination *is* confusing and a re-word would really help.
Doesn't really affect the OP's case, though, as in the eye of the law ensuring you have a valid ticket is the responsibility of the passenger.
You mean you genuinely can't see why someone might think a Business Park on the edge of the city centre has a station that's a member of Liverpool Stations?
Moorfields doesn't have Liverpool in its name, but the OP would have been fine to travel there with the ticket it sounds like they purchased.
Moorfields doesn't have Liverpool in its name, but the OP would have been fine to travel there with the ticket it sounds like they purchased.
I can see how someone could think that the ticket was valid - if they were shown it and asked where it was valid to - but if they wanted to go to Wavertree why would they search for Liverpool rather than Wavertree? If they are, as is claimed, unfamiliar with trains and the area they wouldn't know that there is such a thing as 'Liverpool Stations'.
It's not impossible but unfortunately it matches the behaviour of someone who is trying to short fare.
I repeat, if I wanted to travel to Wavertree I would serch under 'W'. If I wanted to travel to Moorfields I would search under 'M' etc etc. Rather than being "ridiculous", it seems the obvious thing to do and has served me well in many cities across Europe.
If I was unfamiliar with the railway I would know nothing about 'x stns' and, hence, would search for the station I wanted to go to by its name.
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
But you might see an option on the summary screen called "Liverpool Stations", which looks rather like "any station in Liverpool" to me. I happen to know that's not what it means, but a novice won't.
I find this reply quite offensive, Wavetree is a Station in Liverpool so could easily be misunderstood not just by visitors to City but also locals not used to using the system.
In which case you would be wrong. Is that so incocievable?
If it transpires that an overpayment was made, IMHO Northern would be prosecuting purely because they're trying to profit from an innocent mistake.
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Northern's ticket machines firstly offers a screen of popular destinations.
'Liverpool Stations' will probably be the first item on this list.
To find a station by name you must first select an option for 'other destinations'.
I have had at least one intelligent person I know tell me that they assumed 'Liverpool Stations' meant 'any station in Liverpool'.
http://s3.amazonaws.com/madebymany.com/uploads/pictures/529/interface_content.jpg?1333469306
??
Ever since TVMs have been in existence I have started a search for the station I wish to travel to by typing in the first letter of its name. I have never failed to find the required station using this strategy.
Just on the off chance that Moorfields is somehow different, when I was passing the station early today I visited the TVMs. I started typing 'M-O-O' and, sure enough, Moorfields appeared and I was able to select the appropriate fares.
So, despite your assertion that I would be wrong, if I ever need to travel to Moorfields in the future I will start by typing 'M' into the TVM.
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Now imagine you're using the TVM for the first time, and on the summary screen you see "Liverpool Stations" offered as an option? You think this means all stations in Liverpool, which is not an unreasonable take on it. Why wouldn't you press it?
To be honest I'd get rid of the summary screens and start with the keyboard to type the first few letters. It's more confusing than it's worth.
bradders1983
Member
You are arguing a different point there, Neil. See the quoted exchange in post #11.
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gray1404
Established Member
By the same token Hunts Cross could be taken to be a Liverpool Station under this notion. I do not think we're dealing with a visitor here though so I think the visitor v local argument is moot point.
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...he ... was not aware that Wavertree did not come under 'all Liverpool stations' - this ticketing does sound ridiculous and complicated - how would a stranger to City be aware of this and believe it isn't explained anywhere at stations.....
Mods' note: split from Northern Rail Fixed Penalty dispute
Mods' note: split from Northern Rail Fixed Penalty dispute
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I'm not going to keep going around in circles. Anyone who can't see how this mistake might've been made innocently is just being anti-customer for the sake of it. The point of these threads is to assist the OP, not be sanctimonious about how your way of using a ticket machine is better than someone elses.
It really depends on the stations group concerned, for instance there's no 'GLASGOW STATIONS' just 'GLASGOW CEN/QST' which is clearly a function of the fact theres only 2 stations - I guess there are other examples where this has/could be achieved, but many others where it could not.
bb21
Emeritus Moderator
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I don't even understand why there is an argument here. sheff1 described a behaviour any sensible person would likely adopt. starmill is arguing that the behaviour described by the OP does not necessarily constitute an indication of fraudulent travel. I don't see why these are mutually exclusive. I agree with both opinions and agree that if Northern elected to prosecute a case where the passenger actually overpaid, it is extremely petty.
Unfortunately Northern may well think differently here which is most unfortunate imo.
Unfortunately Northern may well think differently here which is most unfortunate imo.
You stated that searching for one's destination station by the first letter of its name was 'wrong'. I could see nothing wrong with it and queried your assertion. Pointing out that searching using the first letter has always worked for me to back up my query is hardly sanctimonious. I am still interested know what you feel is wrong with searching in this way.
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DaveNewcastle
Established Member
No. Of course it doesn't. If that's what we wanted then we'd search under "A" for that ticket, wouldn't we? Whatever city we were in, or travelling to, it would always be "A" (unless we were abroad, in which case we'd choose "T" when travelling to anywhere in Paris or Madrid).
That's helpful. Thank you. [the image you linked to was for London stations but the point is clear].
gray1404
Established Member
I agree with this. I do not think it is a valid argument to say that Liverpool Stations could possibly include a station that is not even in the city centre. Tht said, I have encountered someone who tried to argue that Birkenhead would be included within Liverpool stations. When pressed on the matter though they could not back it up.
The problem is people attach their own meaning to something and can get it totally wrong. I think in the case of the OP this thread started with, they lack experience of getting the train and had never been taught by their parents how to. I do strongly believe that knowing how to use public transport is a very important like skill and too many young people are totally clueless.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The other possible sad issue in the case concerned is: if the travel was after 9.30am (we have not been told what time it was at) but an Area C Saveaway could have been perfect for this journey it would not have matter where on earth he went in Zone C. £3.90
Are all the stations in the "Liverpool Stations" group in the city centre?
gray1404
Established Member
The Liverpool station group is a station group of four railway stations in Liverpool City Centre, consisting of Lime Street, Central, James Street and Moorfields. All of these are in the city centre.
Quite right too! Birkenhead is in Cheshire* and anyway it is the wrong side of the Mersey - so says my mate from Huyton and who am I to argue.
*Proper counties only - no 1970's nonsense.
CheesyChips
Member
- Joined
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There's an ambiguity here which puts passengers in a position to have to understand the geography of the stations.
Much like how a visitor to Birmingham may beleive a ticket for Birmingham Stations would be valid to Birmingham International which of course it is not. How would a first time railway user know that from looking at an unfamiliar screen and quite rightly typing in B I R M on the TVM?
Much like how a visitor to Birmingham may beleive a ticket for Birmingham Stations would be valid to Birmingham International which of course it is not. How would a first time railway user know that from looking at an unfamiliar screen and quite rightly typing in B I R M on the TVM?
Without particularly commenting on the correctness or otherwise of the original complaint,
I personally find the idea of station groups open to confusion unless a clear list of which stations are in a group is publicly displayed.
Finding the official station group listings seems difficult. An obvious search on Google "UK Rail Station Group" returns nothing official (only wikipedia)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Station_group_(railway)
It does contain references, but I can't see any of the references actually links to an official document containing the list.
The search "ATOC station Group" did return a suitable list, in PDF format.
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/files/group_stations.pdf
Is that the definitive list? Or the correct version? Who can say?
EDIT: This is not the correct list.
I couldn't find a list of station groups on the rail enquiries site. Surely it must be there, perhaps someone could offer the correct link.
If I went to a ticket office and asked for a list, would they be able to give me one?
Unless the list can be publicly displayed, I think using specific labels on the machine like "Liverpool Lime Street" would be better.
One entry for each station, then issue to "Liverpool Stations" with a note which stations this includes on the ticket.
I personally find the idea of station groups open to confusion unless a clear list of which stations are in a group is publicly displayed.
Finding the official station group listings seems difficult. An obvious search on Google "UK Rail Station Group" returns nothing official (only wikipedia)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Station_group_(railway)
It does contain references, but I can't see any of the references actually links to an official document containing the list.
The search "ATOC station Group" did return a suitable list, in PDF format.
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/files/group_stations.pdf
Is that the definitive list? Or the correct version? Who can say?
EDIT: This is not the correct list.
I couldn't find a list of station groups on the rail enquiries site. Surely it must be there, perhaps someone could offer the correct link.
If I went to a ticket office and asked for a list, would they be able to give me one?
Unless the list can be publicly displayed, I think using specific labels on the machine like "Liverpool Lime Street" would be better.
One entry for each station, then issue to "Liverpool Stations" with a note which stations this includes on the ticket.
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CheesyChips
Member
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- 217
That makes perfect sense to me
Those are actually two different things.
The 'group stations' in the .pdf are only used for routeing purposes.
e.g. Sandhills, Edge Hill, Hamilton Square are all in 'Liverpool Group' for routeing purposes, but are not included with a ticket to 'Liverpool Stations'.
The 'group stations' in the .pdf are only used for routeing purposes.
e.g. Sandhills, Edge Hill, Hamilton Square are all in 'Liverpool Group' for routeing purposes, but are not included with a ticket to 'Liverpool Stations'.
Which answers one of my questions, the document linked isn't the correct version at all.
Do you know if there is a correct official version?
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Not all ticket machines are progammed with the station name individually. The last time I used a Mersyerail TVM there was no option for "Liverpool Lime Street" indeed it appeared as LIVERPOOL BR. What does that mean in the modern world?
However I now appreciate that given the OP's origin this would have been a Northern machine.
ATW's S&B machines at Chester used to deal very poorly with this also. SMART ones do consierably better, displaying a button that uust says 'Liverpool' and then 'Lime St / Central / James St / Moorfields' underneath.
Who is supposed to know which stations are in the which groups, and how on earth would adding 'all' help or change that?
London fields isn't a member of London Terminals, but Vauxhall is! Pontefract Stations contains Pontefract Monkhill and Pontefract Baghill. Pontefract Tanshelf? Nope!
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