• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Trains and the Rugby World Cup

Status
Not open for further replies.

222007

Member
Joined
12 Jun 2007
Messages
468
Location
By The Track
Personally i find Rugby fans a lot worse than football fans. Typically you might get some gobby football fans but generally i find there ok they know its dead easy to get on the blower for BTP. Rugby fans fans dont have that fear. When the Leicester Tigers are playing i dread work and know its gonna be unpleasent at best
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

jimm

Established Member
Joined
6 Apr 2012
Messages
5,279
Frankly I actually suspect that most people travelling by train to the event wouldn't have an issue with paying a little extra if it came to it.

The vast majority of people travelling between London and Cardiff yesterday would have been Irish fans living in the London area, and most of them wouldn't be regular travellers on the route. Price really is not such a big issue for those travelling to these sort of events - people just want to get there and back speedily and efficiently and in general don't mind paying a little extra if necessary.

From a TOC perspective yesterday would have been a bad day from an image perspective.and it really would not inspire people who don't use the train to use it again. That's a shame as it was a great opportunity to demonstrate what the railway can do.

Lessons need to be learnt and fast considering it all happens again in three weeks time.

Lessons need to be learned, do they?

Such as what? That everyone should be guaranteed a seat on a day when the railways are being asked to shift 40,000-plus people in and out of Cardiff? In that case the only possible lesson is that a magician able to conjure up trains and crews out of thin air is needed. And in the light of the problems on the M4, that Newport bypass also needs to be built in the next three weeks...

Going by all manner of comments on Twitter, asking people for any more money would be highly unlikely to go down well - unless they were on the VSOE Puillman both ways, no standing allowed, and with a right to jump the queuing system to get home after the game.

So if you know where all these spare trains and crews are and who's going to pay for them to run, I'm sure FGW, ATW and XC would love to hear from you. Likewise all the other TOCs around the country who will also face similar situations over the next few weekends, especially Manchester on October 10.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
No they don't and they're on MBM and as of December they'll be working even harder with extra services via YPM, CLC & WSB to Waterloo.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


What's with this infernal fixation about money? Is it coming out of your pocket? No!

Let's give people a train which would otherwise be doing nothing & put the thing in service and if it loads up nicely & takes the pressure off normal services, then it's earning, whereas if it's in a siding doing nowt then it's not earning.

The only issue I can see is that you may have a problem supplying train crew.

The fixation is that you need the money to pay the operating costs - and the crews, which judging from a number of posts by rail staff in this thread, such as the one above, would be far from straightforward to find when in most cases you are going to be reliant on volunteers.

Same as finding the trains. Are FGW depots thronged with unused trains on Saturday? Hardly. And many of those that might be spare were of course in service yesterday, along with the loco-hauled extras. Or you could play spot the spare XC 170 at Tyesley or spare Voyagers at Barton-under-Needwood without much success.

Well actually the customers would be paying via ticket sales... 524 seats + standing capacity vs 200 for a voyager or 166 for a 3 car 170 with first.

The problem with the current ticketing system for events like this is there is no mechanism to prevent ticketing agents and/or TOC's from selling capacity that doesn't exist. The seated capacity between CDF and BHM direct from 16:00 to 19:45 is only 1,200 even with the strengthening they've done.

Do no get me wrong this isn't just a XC problem but a TOC wide issue with major event capacity. FGW are in a little better position (approx 2,100 seats) due to their fleet being of higher capacity, even still they are also completed done for.

When a major event is on with extreme travel requirements wouldn't it make more sense to cancel anytime ticket sales and only sell AP's without allocated seats.

FGW put on trains providing an 8,000 extra seats for the match yesterday. How much more do you expect them to do?

Why would anyone be using an anytime ticket for an out and back trip on a Saturday anyway?
 
Last edited:

berneyarms

Established Member
Joined
26 Nov 2013
Messages
3,114
Location
Dublin
Lessons need to be learned, do they?

Such as what? That everyone should be guaranteed a seat on a day when the railways are being asked to shift 40,000-plus people in and out of Cardiff? In that case the only possible lesson is that a magician able to conjure up trains and crews out of thin air is needed. And in the light of the problems on the M4, that Newport bypass also needs to be built in the next three weeks...

Going by all manner of comments on Twitter, asking people for any more money would be highly unlikely to go down well - unless they were on the VSOE Puillman both ways, no standing allowed, and with a right to jump the queuing system to get home after the game.

So if you know where all these spare trains and crews are and who's going to pay for them to run, I'm sure FGW, ATW and XC would love to hear from you. Likewise all the other TOCs around the country who will also face similar situations over the next few weekends, especially Manchester on October 10.

Could I suggest that you maybe tone it down a little? This is not a court of law - I'm quite entitled to my opinion as are others - it's a discussion board. I don't see the need to post in (what certainly seems to me) a rather aggressive manner.

I'm not in any way suggesting that I have "magic" solutions, nor do I expect rolling stock to be magically found, but I don't think anyone would suggest that yesterday was a good advertisement for the railway.

Perhaps there is a need to implement strict quotas in either direction between London and Cardiff with boarding control cards? Maybe GWR need to make clear that once a certain number of tickets are sold - that's it, while keeping a quota for intermediate stations on the route too. That way people would know that they are entitled to travel back afterwards or not.

Maybe they could look at changing post-match procedures?

It's a case of looking and seeing if things can be changed for the better.
 

LeylandLen

Member
Joined
28 Oct 2013
Messages
779
Location
Leyland Lancs
I understand that many more fans will travel to the place where the game is to be played either to watch the game on large screens outside in Fansparks or on TV in pubs and Sportsbars. Some will travel to the place, such as Cardiff, just to be there and 'sample the atmosphere'. So it is very difficult to predict the number of people travelling to Cardiff . The capacity of the stadium is known but there will be thousands there in pubs or just outside. Anyone who knows Cardiff will understand that. Plus those in and around Cardiff Bay . So it must be difficult to estimate those going from Paddington to Cardiff on any match day at Cardiff.
 

Envoy

Established Member
Joined
29 Aug 2014
Messages
3,158
Sunday 20 September - 17.22. (After Wales v Uruguay).
Out of interest, I have just been on Google Earth and ticked the 'Traffic' box in the side menu. (This shows the speed of traffic).

The M4 eastbound has a massive traffic jam stretching from the start of the M48 at St.Mellons all the way to the Newport tunnel.

The A4232 expressway linking Cardiff with the M4 at Junction 33 (mainly used by those going west), is jammed from Culverhouse Cross to J33. This is of course after the Welsh Government have completed improvement works at J33 to make dedicated left turns. Incredible though it may sound, Cardiff Council have submitted in their LDP, a proposal to build a business park on the north side of J33 with associated car parks for a Park & Ride. Clearly, what is needed are continuous flyovers linking the M4 from the west with the A4232 &/or the A4232 with the M4 eastbound. Goodness knows why the WG don't tell Cardiff Council that the idea of cluttering up this junction further is plain bonkers & they will not allow it!

We should never have got to a situation like this where the roads and railways can barely cope with normal flows let alone surges caused by special events.

It has not been a good weekend for the start of the re-branding of the GWR.

PS. Just been back on Google Earth at 6pm and the traffic jams have now reached all the way back along the A48 Eastern Avenue (as far as Heath Hospital). The M4 eastbound is also now jamming up on the section north of Cardiff near J30. It does not flowing again normally until east of the Newport tunnel.

'island' (below) - Your post is most interesting. Perhaps, the additional trains put on between Paddington & Cardiff could have gone non-stop - being as they were already full on departure? That would have left the 'normal' services to deal with the intermediate stops. I totally agree that selling alcohol to people on these trains should not be allowed. An aircraft Captain would refuse to take people who had clearly had too much to drink.

The main hall at Cardiff Central was already quite full with 'normal' passengers looking for departing trains / buying tickets. (Some were confused by the destination panels constantly switching between Welsh & English. I told someone that they were not new places but the same names as those previously shown in English. It is very confusing). So, perhaps it was for the best that the arriving passengers were directed out through the southern exit.
 
Last edited:

island

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2010
Messages
17,913
Location
0036
There were an awful lot of people complaining and raising problems, but few viable solutions.

I was at Ireland/Canada in the Millennium Stadium yesterday, with my mum. As GWR had chosen to block reservations and advance fares on trains to/from Cardiff at all relevant times, we were using Super Off-Peak return tickets.

Paddington was a farce. We arrived around 09:20. There was little information forthcoming and occasional announcements were limited to "all passengers travelling to the Rugby World Cup please go to the holding area on platforms 8 and 9". It was a similar approach to Glastonbury which simply did not scale to the volume of travellers. Passengers were being directed to one of 2-3 trains per hour – but when the trains were ready to board, the ticket gates for platforms 2-5 were admitting passengers normally, including those who chose not to queue in the holding area. A "special" service was scheduled to be overtaken en route by the normal trains.

We managed to board the 0945 and get seats in the split standard/1st coach. More and more passengers were packed on and the train was full and standing leaving Paddington 10 minutes late. There were 5-10 minute dwell times at each station stop as further passengers tried, and mostly failed, to squeeze on. I had sympathy for the guard, because as quickly as he and the staff were slamming the doors, further fans were reopening them and trying to get on, and invariably not reclosing them properly.

We were held for a good 10 minutes outside Cardiff Central station awaiting platfform clearance. It was unclear why none of the numerous other platfformau were made available – although I'm not sure what access the pointwork allows. I remarked that the 31-60 minute delay was enough to get 50% compensation on most other TOCs, but not GWR.

The usual ATW nonsense was in effect at Cardiff Central with passengers prohibited from taking the usual exit out to the front of the station and needing to go around the back.

A substantial number of people were left on the platforms at each calling point and I do not know how many of them were unable to make the match that they paid up to £250 for tickets for.

No issues at the match itself other than the stewards unilaterally declaring items prohibited that were not so listed on the Rugby World Cup website.

We left promptly at the final whistle and headed directly, if not with a great deal of celerity, to the station. By this stage the London/Bristol/Newport queues, which were not properly separated, were backed up to Wood Street. Every ten or fifteen minutes, an ATW person yelled "Newport" or "Bristol Parkway" etc. and people pushed and shoved to get through. I saw two passengers get pushed over in the mess, a kid on crutches and an elderly man. I am not sure who will be taking accountability for that, but ATW and security staff were thin on the ground until around 50m from the station entrance.

My mum and I eventually made our way into a train. We had decided to board 1st class as weekend first is offered. The train was in a disgusting state with bags, bottles, and cans all over the tables and seats presumably from passengers who had travelled out on that train earlier. GWR had not seen fit to have it cleaned. We got seats at the front of the train. We were joined by two pleasantly inebriated fellow Irish fans. I doubt more than a half dozen in the carriage had first class tickets or would have paid the £15 supplement – but the guard was unwilling or unable to venture out and collect it.

On a service with so many passengers having had substantial amounts of drink taken, a sensible approach would have been not to serve any more. This was not, rather inevitably, the approach taken, and to make matters worse, coffee and other hot drinks, which would have helped to de-escalate things, were not available owing to a defective machine.

Dwell times were not quite as bad on the way back, but the train left CDF 25 minutes late and was around 45 down on arrival at Paddington station.

As a postscript, I offered to pay the £30 for our Weekend First tickets at the excess fares window at PAD, but it was refused.

I realise I have painted a dim picture. There was room for improvement, but only around the edges. Realistic changes:
  • Fix the queueing system at Paddington – either prevent access to the train other than through the queue or make it a free-for-all
  • Fix the queueing system at Cardiff Central, by which I mean make them longer so the division by destination is clearer, sooner
  • Hire more security staff and have them on trains and at stations as a visible presence, and to charge up people wanting first class upgrades
  • Declare the trains dry under Railway Byelaw 4
  • Clean the trains properly during the match

Unrealistic suggestions
  • Put on more trains – last time I checked the magic rolling stock fairy was on strike, and I doubt there are paths either
  • Make trains reservation only throughout, no access without a reservation – there would have been anarchy and people need to travel somehow
  • "You had 1/2/4 years to prepare"
 

Bellbell

Member
Joined
16 Oct 2013
Messages
245
I think that's a pretty fair post, island. I believe the queuing system is normally fairly successful at Cardiff but think they were overwhelmed yesterday.

On the subject of additional trains (island I know you discounted these), I guess one issue you have is that these are not isolated events (although, to be fair, there's always an event on somewhere). What I mean is, if this was a one off weekend of rugby you could maybe alter maintenance schedules, pull in favours from crew etc and run additional services. With several weeks of this to come though, you can't severely alter the maintenance schedules, it would be too hard to recover from, particularly with football season here, leaf fall season gearing up etc.
 

infobleep

On Moderation
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
13,453
FGW may have learnt something. HSTs operating Bristol Cardiff today in place of local units.
Perhaps they had HSTs available today but didn't the other day.

The solution to this might be to advise people not to travel unless absolutely necessary. They did that during the Olympics to try and help keep numbers travelling more manageable.
 

PHILIPE

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Nov 2011
Messages
13,472
Location
Caerphilly
Perhaps they had HSTs available today but didn't the other day.

The solution to this might be to advise people not to travel unless absolutely necessary. They did that during the Olympics to try and help keep numbers travelling more manageable.

See my Post #132 earlier, repeated below. There were HSTs Saturdays.

Not at all. There are only a couple of local services booked all day between Bristol TM and Cardiff on a Sunday. The hourly Portsmouths are running almost normally (I say almost because of starting/terminating Salisbury due Engineering Work). The HSTs are pre-planned specials and nothing to do with yesterdays fiasco
 

Michael.Y

Established Member
Joined
14 Oct 2011
Messages
1,437
You can't compare yesterday and today.

Yesterday, as it was a "neutral" game, the vast bulk of people were travelling east.

Today, given it was a Wales home game, a sizeable proportion are going west, valleys, Marches, North etc.
 

jimm

Established Member
Joined
6 Apr 2012
Messages
5,279
Could I suggest that you maybe tone it down a little? This is not a court of law - I'm quite entitled to my opinion as are others - it's a discussion board. I don't see the need to post in (what certainly seems to me) a rather aggressive manner.

I'm not in any way suggesting that I have "magic" solutions, nor do I expect rolling stock to be magically found, but I don't think anyone would suggest that yesterday was a good advertisement for the railway.

Perhaps there is a need to implement strict quotas in either direction between London and Cardiff with boarding control cards? Maybe GWR need to make clear that once a certain number of tickets are sold - that's it, while keeping a quota for intermediate stations on the route too. That way people would know that they are entitled to travel back afterwards or not.

Maybe they could look at changing post-match procedures?

It's a case of looking and seeing if things can be changed for the better.

So glib lines like "lessons must be learned" amount to discussion do they?

Clearly there will be a post mortem later today and I'm sure those involved will see if there's anything else they might do but the plain fact is that on occasions like these, the TOCs are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

To give you an idea of what they were up against this weekend, the TOCs also got slaughtered three years ago during the Olympics after a Team GB football game in Cardiff when a mere 19,000 people tried to use the trains.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-19091014

The comparable figure seems to be 30,000 plus in and out through Cardiff Central both yesterday and today, so is it any wonder the trains struggled, even when FGW had planned in 8,000 extra seats and hijacked Cheltenham trains on the day to offer another 1,500?

That the M4 was bloody awful both days as well will just be forgotten and the highways people will be learning no lessons at all, just pretending it never happened, just like they always do.

In hindsight, they couldn't have picked a worse weekend for a re-brand! :roll::lol:

They didn't 'pick' it. Yesterday was the date when the new agreement with the DfT started and I'd hardly expect them to hold off just because of the rugby union world cup.
 
Last edited:

eisenach

Member
Joined
6 Feb 2014
Messages
189
Location
Leominster
Good old ATW.
My son, travelling from Bristol to Ludlow last night (no working phone and out of money, of course !) ended up on a train that announced, after it had pulled away (from Newport, presumably, I'll check when he's come round !), that it would be non-stop to Shrewsbury because of over-crowding. This was news to most of those on board; you can imagine the reaction !
He arrived Shrewsbury some time after 22.30. He only spotted one member of staff who was completely overwhelmed.
Rather stupidly, he decided that the only thing to do was to walk. He spent most of the night walking along the A49, got picked up by a van in Church Stretton and taken as far as Craven Arms where he evntually caught a train to Ludlow.
Perhaps not the best set of decisions by my son, but how can a train suddenly become non-stop after it has left ? If there had been an annoucement, it hadn't got through to those joining the train !
 

island

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2010
Messages
17,913
Location
0036
There probably was an announcement but it was inaudible, muffled, unheard, or some combination of the above!
 

Greenback

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
9 Aug 2009
Messages
15,268
Location
Llanelli
It doesn't seem logical at all not to stop an overcrowded train. In the circumstances, it seems far more likely that more people will be getting off at intermediate station than will be getting on.
 

father_jack

Established Member
Joined
26 Jan 2010
Messages
1,557
It doesn't seem logical at all not to stop an overcrowded train. In the circumstances, it seems far more likely that more people will be getting off at intermediate station than will be getting on.

Erm....... Methinks it did stop. http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P40670/2015/09/20/advanced
All day the Ludlow stops showed "N/R"....... Or maybe none stopped. Overdoss. Where do I claim my £5 ?

And edit-last southbound ex CRV is 2232 :roll:
 
Last edited:

Greenback

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
9 Aug 2009
Messages
15,268
Location
Llanelli
There don't appear to be any non stop trains between Newport and Ludlow. Nor is there any departure from Shrewsbury to Craven Arms after 2220.
 

Greenback

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
9 Aug 2009
Messages
15,268
Location
Llanelli
I thought you said he got a train from Craven Arms to Ludlow? There doesn't appear to be one!
 

jimm

Established Member
Joined
6 Apr 2012
Messages
5,279
I thought you said he got a train from Craven Arms to Ludlow? There doesn't appear to be one!

After he had spent much of the night walking along the A49 from Shrewsbury to Church Stretton, as stated in eisenach's first post
 

Greenback

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
9 Aug 2009
Messages
15,268
Location
Llanelli
I suspect something different to what was claimed may have happened in reality. It wouldn't be the first time that a son or daughter has given a parent a version of events that is not 100% accurate, in order put themselves in a better light.

Having said that, walking from Shrewsbury to Church Stretton is something I may have done if I had been stranded in my younger days. But the non stop through Ludlow adds confusion to the issue.
 

atw driver

Member
Joined
10 Sep 2015
Messages
22
Atw aslef strike ballot result in 92.1% in favour of strike action dates to be announced shortly I expect October 1st Wales v fiji to be the first one up
 

Bookd

Member
Joined
27 Aug 2015
Messages
445
What is this strike about, other than finding the best way to inconvenience as may passengers as possible and lose business for the railway?
 

gareth950

Member
Joined
3 Nov 2013
Messages
1,009
atw driver, do you have any more information than that you've already given us?

As there are no online sources anywhere to back up atw driver's claims, can we believe anything that they have said about there being a dispute between ASLEF and ATW?
 

SPADTrap

Established Member
Joined
15 Oct 2012
Messages
2,355
As there are no online sources anywhere to back up atw driver's claims, can we believe anything that they have said about there being a dispute between ASLEF and ATW?

As much as you may not want to believe it 'atw driver' is correct.
 
Last edited:

gareth950

Member
Joined
3 Nov 2013
Messages
1,009
Well if a strike is announced for 1st and or 2nd October (RWC match days at the Millennium Stadium, the 1st Oct being a Wales match) striking drivers can expect absolutely zero sympathy, understanding or respect from passengers. The press will inevitably paint drivers out to be greedy, opportunistic, and using the RWC to cause maximum disruption and misery to a major sporting event.

Also, genuine question, how on earth do the unions expect the general public to support their fight against the Tories proposed anti-trade union laws when they take action like this and at this time? (Perhaps the topic for a new thread entirely?)

I'm by no means a Conservative supporter (the total opposite), but the recent strikes by the big transport unions will be doing their cause to stop the Tories new anti-union laws absolutely no favours whatsoever.

All that's needed is Cardiff Bus drivers to also reject the new pay offer that was put to them last week, and Unite and ASLEF will be literally holding Cardiff to ransom on 1st & 2nd October!

Fans from other countries travelling to Cardiff for RWC matches must think that our public transport services are a complete joke. :(
 
Last edited:

Class 170101

On Moderation
Joined
1 Mar 2014
Messages
8,664
Having looked at TRUST it appears XC only used two of their four HSTs on Saturday - so that can't eaxctly help their cause particularly as all four are able to be used for Cheltenham races.
 

Kite159

Veteran Member
Joined
27 Jan 2014
Messages
22,846
Location
West of Andover
I bet SWT are looking forward to Saturday with England v Wales at Twickenham, with a late kick-off as well thrown into the mix.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top