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Told off for trying to buy a ticket

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Howardh

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Genuine question;
How far off are we before all TOC's have print-at-home tickets which have a barcode (or similar) which a revenue collector can check anywhere along the journey?

My ticket to London or Glasgow on Virgin is invariably printed on A4. I am aware that you can have a ticket sent to a phone, not sure how many companies do that and I have never used that service, on the grounds that my phone's a £9.99 Nokia. Barely allows texts!!
 
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benk1342

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That's a very interesting post and suggests that the correct strategy in this situation is to get in the queue and wait until you judge that you need to make a move in order to catch your train. For example at a small station you arrive 10 minutes before departure and get in the queue, if you have not been served after say 8 minutes then proceed to the platform. This approach avoids the need to specify a maximum acceptable queueing time and can take into account variables such as distance to platform, bridges to cross, crowds etc.

It is not sufficient is to look at the queue, say to yourself "That's too long" and immediately go to the platform, to do so would possibly be to miss the first opportunity to purchase..

Maybe I am naive but it honestly never occurred to me that someone would do anything different. The OP says she arrived 10 mins early - I assumed she queued as long as possible and abandoned the queue at the last moment. But perhaps you are right that she looked at the queue, judged it too long and went straight to the platform. If that is the case then I have less sympathy, as I agree with Reb0118 that queues look/feel longer than they are.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
^^^But how does the guy at Leeds know all of that? You could tell him you did that when in reality you could have waited one minute in the queue, thought "sod this" and gone to the platform. Or, just looked at the queue and not bothered trying at all. They have no way of checking whether you are telling the truth or not, or if there was a queue in the first place or not.

It should not be the customer's responsibility to prove that she complied --- it should be the TOC's responsibility to establish that she did not, and should give her the benefit of the doubt if they are not interested in investing in assurance mechanisms (or, God forbid, sufficient ticketing facilities).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I agree with this. Unlike a bus queue arriving first on the platform does not in reality give you first choice of any available seats on the train.

This is really a separate topic but this isn't always true. My local station has an informal, unacknowledged queuing system at the train doors for morning peak trains. Those who arrive later (I find) defer to those who were already on the platform when it comes to boarding and the scramble for seats.
 
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DaleCooper

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Maybe I am naive but it honestly never occurred to me that someone would do anything different. The OP says she arrived 10 mins early - I assumed she queued as long as possible and abandoned the queue at the last moment. But perhaps you are right that she looked at the queue, judged it too long and went straight to the platform. If that is the case then I have less sympathy, as I agree with Reb0118 that queues look/feel longer than they are.

I must admit that I've always got the impression, rightly or wrongly, from other similar threads that the passengers in those cases had just looked at the queue and decided it was too long. Maybe I'm just too cynical or perhaps they didn't mention it thinking it was unimportant but I can't recall anyone saying that they waited in the queue until the last moment.
 

Yorkshirepud

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Ouch! I am stung by criticism! Not really.

Yes, I went into the ticket office and looked at the queue. Having had many years' experience of queues, possibly literally, I knew that it wouldn't clear in time for me to catch my train. The people in the middle of the queue were visibly sighing, rolling their eyes and looking at their watches so I assume that somebody at the head of the queue was taking ages (although the Menston staff are pretty good at asking people who want to buy a pensioners' railcard during morning rush hour on the first Monday of the month to let the people trying to get into Leeds for work go first).

The thing is, I don't feel that I should have to go out of my way to prove that I've been obedient to rules that are biased towards the rail company. I'm an adult; I can judge the length of a queue. In Menston, the ticket office is on the Ilkley platform side, and to get to the Leeds side from the car park you must walk over the bridge. I don't think that it's incumbent on me, having arrived ten minutes early, to have to wait in the queue until the last possible second then sprint over the bridge in heels, carrying a heavy laptop (PLEASE, NOBODY TELL ME THAT I'M FAILING IN MY DUTY AS AN OBEDIENT PASSENGER FOR WEARING HEELS AND CARRYING A LAPTOP) because Northern Rail can't sell me a ticket in good time. The relationship cuts both ways, surely.

I put up with trains that are usually packed, and often late. Should I have to conduct myself in such a way as to deflect all suspicion for the CCTV cameras of having failed in my duty to buy a ticket at every opportunity, including standing in a queue that I know from experience won't move in time for me to buy a ticket? It feels a bit odd, no?

In response to other posts, I discovered that one of my friends, who is 6'2" and built like a tank, had a similar experience a couple of months ago. He simply refused to get out of the queue and the RPI backed off.

Finally, thanks to the poster who asked how long is long enough to buy a ticket and suggested - facetiously - four to five working days. I laughed.
 

gray1404

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What I am liking about you and your friend here is that you both stood your ground with nasty Northern and the contractors they employ. We have all read on here how some of them misbhave and have abused/sworn to passengers.

Was speaking to my uncle in Australia on the phone last night and we got talking about UK railways. He said he had an experience when going to Manchester on Northern. He had caught the train into Southport and was ticketed as far as there with a Merseyrail Day Saver, but then, as a tourist, decided last minute to jump on a train leaving for Manchester. He didn't encounter the guard coming through (he thought it would be totally fine to pay on the train or at the other end). When he got to Manchester Piccadilly he encountered one of these people who work on behalf of Northern. When they asked him for him name and address he made it clear it was a ticket he was after. They insisted, the moment he said he lived in Australia (he made that clear from the outset and didn't ever give his name or any other address type details, just the country) they didn't take any further details and just sold him the ticket.

Clearly a person living overseas is something they don't want to deal with either.
 
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34D

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Finally, thanks to the poster who asked how long is long enough to buy a ticket and suggested - facetiously - four to five working days. I laughed.

Please pose this question in your letter. They won't answer it, but please ask it.
 

neilmc

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Yorkshirepud, IMO you've behaved perfectly reasonably but have been caught by the biased conditions of carriage which apply to anyone travelling by train in the UK.

Basically this means that passengers are responsible for buying a ticket before travelling however long that might take and however many trains they may miss in the meantime and can be treated as a criminal if they fail to do so, whilst incompetent and inefficient train companies can continue their incompetence forever since in this case it actually GAINS them money in self-appointed "fines" and there is no competent regulator to bring them to account.

No wonder people like Branson were keen to get into the train business, compared to highly-regulated airlines and financial services it's an absolute doddle to swindle people with no comeback. Although to be fair in RB's case it's not so much unreliable ticket machines and thugs doing railway jobs, just the ridiculous sums you can extort from business people who need to travel to London, so he doesn't need to resort to Northern's tactics.
 

yorkie

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Yorkshirepud, IMO you've behaved perfectly reasonably but have been caught by the biased conditions of carriage which apply to anyone travelling by train in the UK....
Absolutely true, sadly.

There should be a specific length of time by which you can board the train. Whether that's 10 minutes (double the charter length), 15 minutes or maybe 20 minutes. Whatever length of time is chosen should be wideley published, so people know where they stand. Monitoring/checking should take place to ensure the rail industry is complying.

It's not a level playing field. Far from it :|
 

johntea

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I famously had this at Saltaire station. Boarded at an unstaffed station with just a debit/credit card ticket machine (I always pay cold hard cash for my tickets unless collecting ones booked online :lol: ), no opportunity to purchase on the way to Leeds, delayed into Leeds so no opportunity to purchase there, no opportunity to purchase on the way to Saltaire.

Got off at Saltaire and got a lecture from one of these agency robots about how I should have bought a ticket, of course he or any of his minions hadn't been trained up in the use of ticket selling facilities either so he took down my details and it eventually came through in the post to which I paid it and spent the next month or so battling with Northern to refund an excess 40p. I got it. :lol:

Funnily enough I haven't seen that particular revenue block taking place since my little exchange with Northern! What I DO often still see at stations where these agency staff still prowl are employees having personal conversations on their mobile phone, swearing and even SPITTING (all such incidents I have reported to Northern of course). Don't get me wrong, there are several excellent ones but as mentioned they tend to lose their jacket rather swiftly!
 

Dai Corner

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This could all have been avoided by better communication.

The staff at Menston could have rung Leeds and told them their ticket machine was not working, they couldn't cope with the resultant queues at the ticket office and passengers were in danger of missing their trains. Staff at Leeds could then have been told to apologise to passengers affected for the problems and sell them the ticket they required without question.
 

northwichcat

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I famously had this at Saltaire station. Boarded at an unstaffed station with just a debit/credit card ticket machine (I always pay cold hard cash for my tickets unless collecting ones booked online :lol: ), no opportunity to purchase on the way to Leeds, delayed into Leeds so no opportunity to purchase there, no opportunity to purchase on the way to Saltaire.

My local Northern station has a TVM accepting cash and cards, as well as the ticket office. If the ticket office is open I only use the TVM for purchasing tickets if the ticket office queue is long.

My last two instances of using a Northern TVM are as follows.

Instance 1:
Select ticket and get to payment screen
Insert Mastercard - transaction won't go through
Display goes back to beginning
Select ticket and get to payment screen
Insert Mastercard - transaction won't go through
Display goes back to beginning
Select ticket and get to payment screen
Select cash and told to pay £10.70 with exact change
Insert 70p in change and a £10 note
Get ticket

Instance 2:
Select ticket and get to payment screen
Insert Mastercard - transaction won't go through
Display goes back to beginning
Select ticket and get to payment screen
Insert Visa card and enter PIN - transaction goes through
Get ticket

Guess how many times my Mastercard hasn't been accepted for a transaction (either online or offline) other than at a Northern TVM? Zero. I can't always guarantee to have the cash fare with exact change or enough money on my Visa card as well as my Mastercard. While I mentioned my station has a ticket office it's open for 14 hours Mon-Fri, 12.5 hours on Sat and 6 hours on Sunday so at times the TVM is the only way of purchasing a ticket.
 
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Deerfold

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My local Northern station has a TVM accepting cash and cards, as well as the ticket office. If the ticket office is open I only use the TVM for purchasing tickets if the ticket office queue is long.

My last two instances of using a Northern TVM are as follows.

Instance 1:
Select ticket and get to payment screen
Insert Mastercard - transaction won't go through
Display goes back to beginning
Select ticket and get to payment screen
Insert Mastercard - transaction won't go through
Display goes back to beginning
Select ticket and get to payment screen
Select cash and told to pay £10.70 with exact change
Insert 70p in change and a £10 note
Get ticket

Instance 2:
Select ticket and get to payment screen
Insert Mastercard - transaction won't go through
Display goes back to beginning
Select ticket and get to payment screen
Insert Visa card and enter PIN - transaction goes through
Get ticket

Guess how many times my Mastercard hasn't been accepted for a transaction (either online or offline) other than at a Northern TVM? Zero. I can't always guarantee to have the cash fare with exact change or enough money on my Visa card as well as my Mastercard. While I mentioned my station has a ticket office it's open for 14 hours Mon-Fri, 12.5 hours on Sat and 6 hours on Sunday so at times the TVM is the only way of purchasing a ticket.

Don't forget that most Northern TVMs that take cash, don't take denominations above £10. Combine that with a cash machine that's only got twenties and you're stuffed.
 
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This is really a separate topic but this isn't always true. My local station has an informal, unacknowledged queuing system at the train doors for morning peak trains. Those who arrive later (I find) defer to those who were already on the platform when it comes to boarding and the scramble for seats.

This happens at my local station too, for my regular morning train, at least. This is very much regular commuter behaviour. The problem comes when an unitiated leisure traveller finds themselves in amongst the commuters and doesn't play by these unwritten "rules".
 

EssexGonzo

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This could all have been avoided by better communication.

The staff at Menston could have rung Leeds and told them their ticket machine was not working, they couldn't cope with the resultant queues at the ticket office and passengers were in danger of missing their trains. Staff at Leeds could then have been told to apologise to passengers affected for the problems and sell them the ticket they required without question.


And THAT to me describes what is missing from Northern's behaviour and from the "law is the law you're wrong" arguments spouted by the staff member concerned (a small minority) and their apologist in this thread.

The OP behaved REASONABLY. Northern did not on several counts:

1. A well established service (TVM) was suddenly withdrawn. It's not reasonable to expect passengers to absorb 100% of the inconvenience as a result. This is a monopoly infrastructure service with no other choice and REASONABLE tolerance should be given rather than to start spouting byelaws. Yes, technically they still stand but we're talking about reasonable customer treatment here.

2. It would have been reasonable for the train guard to have been alerted and for him/her to have taken up some of the know slack.

3. And the knob at Leeds......someone has walked up asking to buy a ticket with a plausible story. Clearly not much good at spotting fare evasion behaviour, is he?

A few years ago, before we got Oyster, my home station had a power failure in the ticket hall. The barriers were opened, we all got onto our normal train and the driver (YES, they'd told him about the issue!) on arrival at Liv St directed us to the awaiting line of ladies and gents with machines on the arrival platform and asked us to buy a ticket. Easy.

My point being, the TOC went out of their way to absorb the inconvenience and were more than reasonable about us being on their train with no ticket because their facilities had failed. It's not difficult!
 

Hellfire

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Genuine question;
How far off are we before all TOC's have print-at-home tickets which have a barcode (or similar) which a revenue collector can check anywhere along the journey?

My ticket to London or Glasgow on Virgin is invariably printed on A4. I am aware that you can have a ticket sent to a phone, not sure how many companies do that and I have never used that service, on the grounds that my phone's a £9.99 Nokia. Barely allows texts!!

And isn't this the underlying problem with the railways. Their ticket technology belongs to the 1970s.Why, in the 21st century, are we still using little bits of printed cardboard to travel on a train? e tickets should be the norm, not the exception. The technology exists to buy a ticket online at any time before you travel and have the details, with bar code, on your phone. Cinemas do it, airlines do it, so how have the railways managed to let all this technology pass them by?

When I travel to London with Virgin, I need four bits of cardboard for a return journey and, to validate them, the Train Manager usually scribbles with a biro. Might as well be issuing tickets on a bit of slate for all the progress that has been made.

Of course there are people who deliberately evade their fare. But there are many more people, like the OP, who get caught up in a system that has barely changed since LNER days.
 

najaB

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And isn't this the underlying problem with the railways. Their ticket technology belongs to the 1970s.Why, in the 21st century, are we still using little bits of printed cardboard to travel on a train?
Has your little bit of cardboard ever had a flat battery?
 

Tim R-T-C

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Has your little bit of cardboard ever had a flat battery?

No neither has my printed ticket, or my Italian railways PNR.

It seemed daft in April, I travelled from Sicily to Keighley - I managed to get from Italy all the way to London on printed tickets and PNRs, with spares printed up in my bag in case of problems.

Then at London, having to cherish a tiny, irreplaceable bit of card.
 

najaB

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No neither has my printed ticket, or my Italian railways PNR.
I'm not saying that the current ticketing system couldn't do with improvement, just that mTicketing isn't the panacea that some make it out to be. There are major flaws with mTicketing, the main one being that the battery life of many smartphones is significantly less than the length of many inter-city journeys. Unlike airplanes which are a closed system - once you're on, you're on and you have no further need for your boarding pass - it is often necessary to be able to show your train ticket at multiple points during the journey (including at the destination).
 

island

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Since not all points where one might need to show a ticket have access to the internet, it makes it hard to verify that the ticket hasn't been used yesterday/twice/etc.

Existing e-tickets mostly avoid this by being valid on only one service, preventing reuse.
 
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Since not all points where one might need to show a ticket have access to the internet, it makes it hard to verify that the ticket hasn't been used yesterday/twice/etc.

Existing e-tickets mostly avoid this by being valid on only one service, preventing reuse.


That is the real problem. How about something that sort of has the feature of Oyster, mobile ticketing and the French ticket validator on the platform. Surely the best brains at the train operating companies and ATOC can solve this.
 

najaB

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That is the real problem. How about something that sort of has the feature of Oyster, mobile ticketing and the French ticket validator on the platform. Surely the best brains at the train operating companies and ATOC can solve this.
The solution does exist - the ITSO standard allows inter-operable smart ticketing. The problem is getting it rolled out.
 
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The solution does exist - the ITSO standard allows inter-operable smart ticketing. The problem is getting it rolled out.


Presumably this is where the Department of Transport get involved and mandate it for all operators in the franchise agreements. I suppose the initial costs will be high but it would save money in the long term surely.
 

najaB

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Presumably this is where the Department of Transport get involved and mandate it for all operators in the franchise agreements. I suppose the initial costs will be high but it would save money in the long term surely.
I believe that is exactly what is happening.
 

talldave

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I believe that is exactly what is happening.

It just gives the impression of being a disjointed shamboluc rollout ;)

I encounter enough problems getting through ticket barriers with a valid paper ticket, where at least there's something to look at and discuss. As someone who's career is in technology innovation and should really be positive about such things, I'm not going to travel on our "guilty until proven innocent" rail network with a smartcard the staff don't understand.
 

anme

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Since not all points where one might need to show a ticket have access to the internet, it makes it hard to verify that the ticket hasn't been used yesterday/twice/etc.

Existing e-tickets mostly avoid this by being valid on only one service, preventing reuse.

I doubt that is true. Print-at-home issued in Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium and probably elsewhere are often "open" tickets valid on multiple trains.

There are various measures that could be taken to detect whether a print-at-home ticket has been illegally used multiple times with a good degree of success. For example, the ticket number can be checked with a central server at ticket barriers (where installed) and at on train inspections. The server will record the time and location of the check, and this information used to determine whether a ticket is still valid at later checks.
As you rightly point out, this will fail to detect multiple uses of a ticket when no connection to the central server is available. However, passengers have little control over when an inspection takes place, and a connection is probably available most of the time on most routes, so the risk of detection is still quite high.
Further measures could be taken to increase the chances of detection, even in these circumstances. When a connection is available, a list of used ticket numbers for tickets valid on that day could be downloaded by the inspectors' equipment. This would allow detection of a further significant proportion of reuse. The window available to use a ticket multiple times would become small - the time needed for a connection to become available and the data to be uploaded and downloaded again.
Also, where there are multiple inspectors on a train, the equipment used by the inspectors could communicate checked ticket numbers via, for example, on-train wifi. This would guard against the same ticket being used by multiple people on the same train.

In fact, I doubt the approach of checking each ticket against a database on a central server would work well for on-train inspections. It would often be quite slow, so a local store of information would likely be needed.

Other methods to reduce the opportunity for misuse include requiring a ticket to be presented with ID, or with the original payment card used to buy it. This would tie a ticket to an individual person, or at least one person at a time.

You can no doubt think of further ways to reduce misuse.

I'm not arguing that all abuse of print-at-home tickets can be prevented. However, I think a system could be developed that was secure enough to be widely used without significant losses. It would not be perfect, but no ticketing system is - including our current arrangements. Other new ticketing methods, such as smart cards, may be more secure and may offer even more convenience to passengers and the rail industry.
 

island

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As I understand it, you are required to produce ID with e-tickets on SNCB. (Whether this applies in practice is of course a separate matter.) On DB they pretty consistently require to swipe your BahnCard (or the payment card you used to buy the ticket if you're in the minority without a BahnCard). And in the Netherlands most tickets are on OV-chipkaart which isn't duplicatable.

One would have a hard time establishing a requirement to show photo ID for tickets in the UK market, given (1) there is no legal requirement to carry it like there is, de facto at least, in most of mainland Europe, and (2) the amount of pushback often observed when Railcards or season ticket photocards are asked for here.
 

najaB

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I'm not arguing that all abuse of print-at-home tickets can be prevented. However, I think a system could be developed that was secure enough to be widely used without significant losses. It would not be perfect, but no ticketing system is - including our current arrangements. Other new ticketing methods, such as smart cards, may be more secure and may offer even more convenience to passengers and the rail industry.
I think the answer is that there isn't a single, simple answer.

While different ticketing systems have their evangelists, the truth is that the railway of the future will have a mix of ticketing options - each of which is has strengths that make them suitable for different types of journeys: mTicketing via an app, tickets by SMS, Print at Home, eTickets, smart cards and - old fashioned as they are - little pieces of cardboard.
 

anme

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As I understand it, you are required to produce ID with e-tickets on SNCB. (Whether this applies in practice is of course a separate matter.) On DB they pretty consistently require to swipe your BahnCard (or the payment card you used to buy the ticket if you're in the minority without a BahnCard). And in the Netherlands most tickets are on OV-chipkaart which isn't duplicatable.

One would have a hard time establishing a requirement to show photo ID for tickets in the UK market, given (1) there is no legal requirement to carry it like there is, de facto at least, in most of mainland Europe, and (2) the amount of pushback often observed when Railcards or season ticket photocards are asked for here.

I don't agree. I don't think anyone is arguing that print-at-home tickets become the *only* form of tickets issued in the UK. I'm certainly not suggesting that. I don't think it's a problem to require ID (or just the relevant payment card) for one ticketing option, as long as others are available. In any case, I already outlined some approaches that may offer enough security for print-at-home tickets to be used without any requirement for ID.

I'm not arguing that print-at-home tickets are an ideal solution, but I think they would be useful as part of the wider ticketing system.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I think the answer is that there isn't a single, simple answer.

While different ticketing systems have their evangelists, the truth is that the railway of the future will have a mix of ticketing options - each of which is has strengths that make them suitable for different types of journeys: mTicketing via an app, tickets by SMS, Print at Home, eTickets, smart cards and - old fashioned as they are - little pieces of cardboard.

I agree 100% with this post. :)
 
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