Told off for trying to buy a ticket

[Ianigsy]

Funnily enough, when I wanted to buy a £10 YEP day ranger at Menston on Saturday, I very nearly had to buy a full fare day return to Ribblehead instead because the booking clerk due to be on shift had rung in sick and their replacement was only just finishing setting up for the day. If there's a staffing problem at Menston at the moment which is causing the booking office to open late then this might explain the machine being out of tickets.

 

[Yorkshirepud]

Thanks for your views.

What annoyed me was not being told something I didn't want to hear. He told me something I already knew.

It was the utter unfairness of being admonished, publicly and aggressively, by somebody who was either determinedly uninterested in why I couldn't buy a ticket at Menston or not very bright; I'm sorry to say that, but when I told him, "I know that I'm supposed to buy a ticket before I get on the train, but the ticket machine was broken, you can check that, and the queue at the ticket office was so long that I would have missed my train and I was there ten minutes early", his response was to parrot, "you're supposed to buy a ticket before you get on". Yes, I know.

I think I was supposed to stand there meekly to accept my telling off and failure to purchase notice, but I wouldn't. I'd tried everything reasonable to buy a ticket. I've never dodged a fare in my life; it's stealing. I think it was the fact that I'd been ten minutes early, and that the machine at Menston was broken, that made him (rather reluctantly) back off despite there having been an open ticket office.

I'm surprised that any business would alienate their paying customers like that, but I suppose that they have a monopoly on the suburban rail routes in West Yorkshire so they don't care!

If I were paranoid, I'd wonder whether the ticket machine at Menston had deliberately been left empty of tickets because there was a sting going on that day and Northern thought that they might collect a few more fines if it was difficult to buy a ticket before departure. I'm not, though, and I'd like to record that the ticket office staff at Menston are all lovely.

 

[yorkie]

Have you written a letter to Northern yet?

 

[Yorkshirepud]

I'm composing it, using the helpful advice I've had on this forum! I telephoned them yesterday, and I gave an incident number. Apparently they want to hear about it "in [my] own words".
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Sorry, I HAVE an incident number. Flipping predictive text.

 

[DaleCooper]

What annoyed me was not being told something I didn't want to hear. He told me something I already knew.

So you admit to boarding a train without a ticket knowing that to do so was an offence and therefore it was not an mistake due to ignorance of the law. You are very lucky to have got away without any penalty unlike many people who come to this forum having made a genuine mistake and ended up paying dearly for it. Instead of feeling sorry for yourself put the whole thing down to experience and in future allow a bit more time to buy a ticket or buy one in advance.

 

[yorkie]

So you admit to boarding a train without a ticket knowing that to do so was an offence and therefore it was not an mistake due to ignorance of the law. You are very lucky to have got away without any penalty unlike many people who come to this forum having made a genuine mistake and ended up paying dearly for it. Instead of feeling sorry for yourself put the whole thing down to experience and in future allow a bit more time to buy a ticket or buy one in advance.

An interesting post, but can you tell us how much time should be allowed to purchase a ticket at a station like Menston?

 

[DaleCooper]

An interesting post, but can you tell us how much time should be allowed to purchase a ticket at a station like Menston?

No I don't, does the OP? However that is not really relevant to my main point which is that this OP has got off very lightly compared to some of the posters on here who have been stitched up like kippers. I appreciate that this OP is honest but is, in my opinion, too concerned with their injured dignity to see the how the situation may have appeared to the RPI who has a responsibilty to ensure that someone who has fallen foul of the regulations fully understands the possible consequences of their actions so as to avoid a recurrence.

 

[yorkie]

So, you advise to "allow a bit more time to buy a ticket" but you can't say how much time?

 

[DaleCooper]

So, you advise to "allow a bit more time to buy a ticket" but you can't say how much time?

Well yorkie you've got me bang to rights on that one so I will retract that, and only that, part of my post. Fair enough?

 

[yorkie]

So are you saying 10 minutes (double the length stated in the charter for busy times) was enough time and it's not fair to say (s)he should have allowed longer?

If so, we're in agreement

 

[DaleCooper]

So are you saying 10 minutes (double the length stated in the charter for busy times) was enough time and it's not fair to say (s)he should have allowed longer?

If so, we're in agreement

No, if you read my post you will see I've retracted the part about allowing more time so I'm not saying 10 or any other number of minutes, I'm admitting that I'm not in a position to judge how much time should be allowed. Got it?

 

[benk1342]

No, if you read my post you will see I've retracted the part about allowing more time so I'm not saying 10 or any other number of minutes, I'm admitting that I'm not in a position to judge how much time should be allowed. Got it?

But that point (that you've retracted) was central to your argument - it doesn't stand without it. There must be some limit to the amount of time a customer is required to wait before it can be deemed that no facilities were available. 5 minutes? 10? 60? Five to ten working days? Clearly the last one in absurd and I think 60 minutes is too. So we can draw a line of common sense and reasonableness somewhere. My view is that given that the passenger charter says five minutes, that is a reasonable maximum time to have to wait.

So without your point about having to leave more time, you are conceding that facilities were essentially unavailable - and yet still saying that the OP was in the wrong. This doesn't add up.

I do agree with you however that the OP was lucky here. Arguing vociferously usually doesn't end so well for people.

 

[Haywain]

My view is that given that the passenger charter says five minutes, that is a reasonable maximum time to have to wait.

That's not what the passenger charter says though, is it? It says "we will try to ensure you will not have to wait more than five minutes in busy periods". That cannot be taken as a guarantee, or as a maximum waiting time. I think it is reasonable to say that in such a case 6 or 7 minutes should be allowed, and more if catching a specific train is crucial. It comes down to planning according to the importance of the journey and the frequency of service.

 

[steve a]

From the Northern Rail's passenger charter:



http://www.northernrail.org/pdfs/passengers_charter_july2012.pdf

I've never seen information about busy times being displayed and have found queues to exceed those times frequently. So maybe anyone told off for not buying a tickets when queues exceed those times should write to Northern reminding them of their own targets and if they don't get a satisfactory response, then take it up with Transport Focus and/or their MP?

It also says the opening times of the booking office will be displayed. At my local Northern Rail station, there is nothing outside the station building indicating when it will be open. The opening times may be posted inside but you won't see that unless it's already open.

Also, tickets are only sold on one side of the station. Passengers going in the opposite direction have to cross the road bridge than go down the path or road to the station building. They'd need to arrive about 15 minutes before departure to get a ticket. There are no ticket machines on either platform.

 

[bradders1983]

Is it just me, or should these "revenue protection officers" be channeling their energies at stations where there are no barriers and catching people with zero intention of ever buying a ticket, rather than harassing people buying tickets. Its not as if the OP could ever get away with not buying a ticket when going into Leeds, you cant exit the station otherwise!

 

[northwichcat]

Also, tickets are only sold on one side of the station. Passengers going in the opposite direction have to cross the road bridge than go down the path or road to the station building. They'd need to arrive about 15 minutes before departure to get a ticket. There are no ticket machines on either platform.

At my local station the one TVM is on the platform the same side as the ticket office. If you arrive at the entrance to the other platform (where there is a car park and the bus stops that side) there aren't even signs saying the ticket office is on the other platform. Then if you want step free access to the other platform you have to go back out to the road, walk down the hill, under a bridge and up a hill the other side (about 1/4 mile.)

 

[talltim]

You make it sound like he went out of his way to avoid the ticket machine and/or office at Menston, we both know this is not what happened.

The OP is female

 

[reb0118]

I'd got to the station ten minutes before the train was due to depart....I went to the ticket office and found a very long queue, containing around fifteen people, no doubt as a consequence of the broken ticket machine. I knew that I had no chance of buying a ticket before my train left.

Dear Yorkshirepud please do not take the following as criticism as I can well appreciate the frustration of enforced waiting when having to be at a certain place at a certain time - most often when held at temporary traffic lights or trying to find a legal parking space at the station. Grrr!

I can understand the perception that a long queue takes a long time to clear but in most cases this is not the case. I regularly perform an ad hoc barrier of some of my trains and can have in excess of twenty passengers requiring tickets a few minutes prior to departure but invariably I manage to issue them all - albeit with a few seconds to spare!

Caveat: I do realise that in the above example I am mainly selling simple tickets and that a booking clerk in an office occasionally gets stymied with more complex requests - I am usually the person making such requests at my local office. However, most passengers have common sense and do not request these types of bookings at peak times.

A question for Yorkshirepud: How long did you "give" the queue before heading to the platform?

 

[DaleCooper]

I can understand the perception that a long queue takes a long time to clear but in most cases this is not the case. I regularly perform an ad hoc barrier of some of my trains and can have in excess of twenty passengers requiring tickets a few minutes prior to departure but invariably I manage to issue them all - albeit with a few seconds to spare!

Caveat: I do realise that in the above example I am mainly selling simple tickets and that a booking clerk in an office occasionally gets stymied with more complex requests - I am usually the person making such requests at my local office. However, most passengers have common sense and do not request these types of bookings at peak times.

A question for Yorkshirepud: How long did you "give" the queue before heading to the platform?

That's a very interesting post and suggests that the correct strategy in this situation is to get in the queue and wait until you judge that you need to make a move in order to catch your train. For example at a small station you arrive 10 minutes before departure and get in the queue, if you have not been served after say 8 minutes then proceed to the platform. This approach avoids the need to specify a maximum acceptable queueing time and can take into account variables such as distance to platform, bridges to cross, crowds etc.

It is not sufficient is to look at the queue, say to yourself "That's too long" and immediately go to the platform, to do so would possibly be to miss the first opportunity to purchase..

 

[bradders1983]

^^^But how does the guy at Leeds know all of that? You could tell him you did that when in reality you could have waited one minute in the queue, thought "sod this" and gone to the platform. Or, just looked at the queue and not bothered trying at all. They have no way of checking whether you are telling the truth or not, or if there was a queue in the first place or not.

 

[DaleCooper]

^^^But how does the guy at Leeds know all of that? You could tell him you did that when in reality you could have waited one minute in the queue, thought "sod this" and gone to the platform. Or, just looked at the queue and not bothered trying at all. They have no way of checking whether you are telling the truth or not, or if there was a queue in the first place or not.

That's true I'm just suggesting it as an improvement to the current situation for three reasons:

1. The passenger occupies the moral high ground (of course there will always be those who are less than honest).

2. There is at least a possibilty of purchasing a ticket before boarding.

3. As I said it avoids the need to specify acceptable queueing times.

I know my suggestion isn't perfect but perhaps it could be a starting point for discussion rather than be dismissed out of hand..

 

[tony6499]

Simple would be take a picture of queue and station clock when you arrive and then at least you can back yourself up although the fact that you didn't buy on the train would count against you or have good reason to say why you couldn't buy on the train

 

[northwichcat]

^^^But how does the guy at Leeds know all of that? You could tell him you did that when in reality you could have waited one minute in the queue, thought "sod this" and gone to the platform. Or, just looked at the queue and not bothered trying at all. They have no way of checking whether you are telling the truth or not, or if there was a queue in the first place or not.

If the ticket office has CCTV then it could be checked if there was a queue and what time the passenger turned up at the ticket office (if at all.)

Even without CCTV a phone call to the ticket office would usually confirm if the ticket office was busy at the time (presuming a staff changeover hadn't occurred.)

 

[DaleCooper]

If you have to stand around for 10 minutes waiting for the train anyway you might as well stand in the queue.

 

[northwichcat]

If you have to stand around for 10 minutes waiting for the train anyway you might as well stand in the queue.

Although, if it's 3 minutes walk to the platform and the train may arrive 1-2 minutes before it's scheduled departure time then ideally you don't want to still be in the ticket office 5 minutes before departure.

 

[reb0118]

If you have to stand around for 10 minutes waiting for the train anyway you might as well stand in the queue.

I agree with this. Unlike a bus queue arriving first on the platform does not in reality give you first choice of any available seats on the train.

 

[bradders1983]

If the ticket office has CCTV then it could be checked if there was a queue and what time the passenger turned up at the ticket office (if at all.)

Even without CCTV a phone call to the ticket office would usually confirm if the ticket office was busy at the time (presuming a staff changeover hadn't occurred.)

Yes it could, however its hardly a two minute job to ring up a ticket office (which might still be busy) and check CCTV, if they did it for everyone they wouldnt deal with many people during the day at all.

 

[DaleCooper]

Although, if it's 3 minutes walk to the platform and the train may arrive 1-2 minutes before it's scheduled departure time then ideally you don't want to still be in the ticket office 5 minutes before departure.

The whole point of my suggested strategy is that it's flexible, if you need 5 minutes then that's when you leave the queue.

 

[bradders1983]

If you have to stand around for 10 minutes waiting for the train anyway you might as well stand in the queue.

Fair enough if the ticket office is next to the platform. If you were at a station like Shipley and had to get across to the Leeds (from Skipton) platform it isnt quite so easy...

EDIT - although I see you have already replied to that point.

 

[100andthirty]

The whole point of my suggested strategy is that it's flexible, if you need 5 minutes then that's when you leave the queue.

And it would probably be warmer than waiting on the platform.