Stockport - Manchester VT only fare confusion

[30mog]

This Saturday I want to go from Sheffield to Macclesfield then to Manchester and home to Sheffield.

Unless anyone can do better. I will buy a SHF - MAC Off Peak R (SVR) £22.90 & a Stockport.- Manchester. Off Peak Day R (CDR) £3.40?

I can't for the life of me understand why there is a VTWC only day return for £2.70. And I'm not bothered about saving just 70p. VTWC are essentially a long distance operation. Why would they seek to compete for a greater share of the market on a stretch of just 7 miles? Even if it is a very busy corridor.

 

[Hadders]

VTWC get more money by selling a SPT-MAN ticket routed VT Only than by taking their share of ORCATs revenue on an Any Permitted ticket.

There's no such thing as a long distance operator. We have London Midland (a 'commuter' TOC) offering LM Only London-Liverpool tickets and what type of operator serves London-Reading.

 

[northwichcat]

Virgin took some of Northern's paths between Stockport and Manchester when they started the VHF timetable. Virgin were forced to remove the pick-up and set-down restrictions at Stockport as a consequence of that.

With masses of empty seats north of Stoke/Crewe as a result of going up to 3tph they decided to introduce cheaper Virgin only fares on those sections, which included Stockport-Manchester.

 

[Hadders]

Virgin took some of Northern's paths between Stockport and Manchester when they started the VHF timetable. Virgin were forced to remove the pick-up and set-down restrictions at Stockport as a consequence of that.

With masses of empty seats north of Stoke/Crewe as a result of going up to 3tph they decided to introduce cheaper Virgin only fares on those sections, which included Stockport-Manchester.

I wouldn't say they cart fresh air around though! Some of them are wedged.

 

[northwichcat]

I wouldn't say they cart fresh air around though! Some of them are wedged.

I was meaning overall (over the course of the day) based on what loadings were like in 2008.

 

[Hadders]

We've had 7 years of growth since then!

 

[northwichcat]

We've had 7 years of growth since then!

But that doesn't change the reason(s) for Virgin introducing the tickets in the first place.

 

[gordonthemoron]

Virgin (and LM) do their own services only tickets between MK & Euston

 

[30mog]

So based on this explanation. Could East Midlands or First TPE knock say £1 off Sheffield-Stockport ticket with a similar restriction to keep a 100% share?

Something tells me privatisation was supposed to make more of this happen. But apart from this and examples mentioned above the only similar situation I know of involves London to Gatwick.

 

[Hadders]

So based on this explanation. Could East Midlands or First TPE knock say £1 off Sheffield-Stockport ticket with a similar restriction to keep a 100% share?

Something tells me privatisation was supposed to make more of this happen. But apart from this and examples mentioned above the only similar situation I know of involves London to Gatwick.

The lead operator for Sheffield - Stockport is TPE who set the 'Any Permitted' fare. Therefore as I understand it they cannot set 'TPE only' fares. EMT could set 'EMT only' fares but they would need to consider how much money they get from the 'Any Permitted' fares against what they could get from cheaper 'EMT only' fares. There is an exception to this between Milton Keynes and London where LM are the lead operator but they are also allowed to set 'LM only' fares.

What happens in many cases is that the lead operator will offer Advance fares, that are train specific where they keep all of the revenue.

 

[Starmill]

Virgin Trains East Coast are rather fond of abusing this trick too in order to abstract revenue from other operators and maximise their share.

For example, York to Doncaster:
First Class Anytime Day Single (Any Permitted) £25.30
First Class Anytime Day Single (VTEC ONLY) £24.00

Why would you want the latter, particularly as they won't allow you to excess it for validity on XC, NT, HT or TP?

Very dishonourable to price your TOC ONLY flow when you price the Any Permitted in my view.

 

[Hadders]

Virgin Trains East Coast are rather fond of abusing this trick too in order to abstract revenue from other operators and maximise their share.

For example, York to Doncaster:
First Class Anytime Day Single (Any Permitted) £25.30
First Class Anytime Day Single (VTEC ONLY) £24.00

Why would you want the latter, particularly as they won't allow you to excess it for validity on XC, NT, HT or TP?

Very dishonourable to price your TOC ONLY flow when you price the Any Permitted in my view.

I didn't think a TOC was allowed to set their own 'TOC Only' fares where they are the lead operator, with the exception of London Midland and their tickets to London.

I assume this doesn't apply to First Class.

 

[Starmill]

It could be that, it could be that they got them in before that rule was thought up, or it could be that they also have an exception.

 

[Hadders]

I suspect the rule's been in since privatisation. I think all First Class fares are unregulated so operators can presumably do what they want with them.

 

[maniacmartin]

Even though being only £1 less removes loads of flexibility and results in inability to excess and for a return ticket this expensive isn't worth the saving to most people, it works for a reason. Online booking engines will put the cheaper ticket at the top as the recommended option, so people will buy it without looking at the terms which are 'too complicated' for normal passengers to bother to read.

 

[30mog]

Back to the OP!

I am right in thinking breaking the journey at Stockport on the return leg of a Sheff. to Macc. SVR is within the rules?

And my only make sure after 2200 at Man.Picc. is catch the 2228 not the 2222 as the latter mentioned doesn't stop at Stockport?

 

[northwichcat]

I noticed someone trying to purchase a ticket from at a TVM shrug his shoulders, walked away from the TVM and joined the ticket office queue. There was prompt on the TVM after he left it saying something like "This ticket is only via Stockport. Are you sure you want to buy it?" Obviously too confusing for some passengers.

 

[Romilly]

I couldn't help smiling at this point, as there is another current thread about "Thameslink-only" tickets and how it would be better to have "via Loughborough Junction" (or "via not Clapham Junction") tickets instead because a Southern train might consist of Thameslink-liveried coaches, whereas here we are now discussing whether "Grand Central Trains only" might or might not be better than "via Southport".

The real difficulty for many passengers is not that they can't understand the restriction and how to comply with it (even if some passengers struggle with either or both of those things), but at the point of purchase they know they don't understand the implications of the restriction for their journey. If I am a stranger in the North West, it's quite possible that I won't know whether "via Southport" (or "TPE only" or whatever) means that out of 10 trains per hour there's one I'm not allowed to use or whether it means there's only one train every 2 hours that I can use. But it can be worse than that: for example, how many visitors to the South of England will have heard of Barnham, and know where it is, and know the implications for tickets being routed via that location (for all I know without checking, there are trains routed via Barnham that don't even stop there: how simple is that for a non-local)?

 

[30mog]

You've let me down here folks!!

SHF- MAC SVR doesn't allow break of journey according to www.brfares.com . Thankfully, Sheffield to Manchester CDR plus likewise Manchester to Macclesfield only works out £1.10p more and will do the job. Based on the rule that in the case of all tickets except Advance, there is no rule against ending a journey short of ticket destination or starting late of origin providing you are on a correct routing.

 

[Rail Ranger]

I've just checked www.brfares.com and there's no Off-Peak Day Return from Sheffield to Macclesfield. It's an Off-Peak Return (formerly known as a Saver) so it only allows break of journey on the outward leg. AFAIK Off-Peak Day Returns generally allow break of journey in both directions.

 

[yorkie]

SHF- MAC SVR doesn't allow break of journey according to www.brfares.com .....

I've amended the codes so they're now correct. As Rail Ranger says, the fare is what used to be called the 'Saver Return'

As I've said a few times lately, it is very rare that break of journey restrictions apply, and when they do apply you must be told about it when you buy the ticket. The NRCoC states:

You can:
Start, break or resume your journey using trains on which your ticket is valid unless you are told about particular restrictions that apply to the use of your ticket.

In the case of a Sheffield - Macchesfield SVR, you may be told that break of journey is restricted on the outward portion (as shown on BRfares.com). If you are told this, the restriction does apply but it does not affect your intended journey because you are not breaking your outward portion.

BRfares.com does not in any way state there is a break of journey restriction on the return portion, and it also quotes this general condition which applies to this ticket type:

BREAK OF JOURNEY

Break of journey is allowed ...... in all cases on the return portion of Off-Peak return tickets

 

[ainsworth74]

I have split out a few posts referring to VTEC Only first class fares into a new thread which can be found here.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is an exception to this between Milton Keynes and London where LM are the lead operator but they are also allowed to set 'LM only' fares.

I believe the reason for this is that the flow used to be owned by VT, and has transferred to Silverlink and then LM as they became the primary operator once the VHF timetable came in. However Silverlink (and then LM) were able to keep the operator-specific tickets they already had provided they didn't add any new ones. As VT no longer owned the flow, they could then add theirs as well.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I suspect the rule's been in since privatisation. I think all First Class fares are unregulated so operators can presumably do what they want with them.

Yes, I believe that's right, First Class fares are totally unregulated and are set on a fully commercial basis.

 

[sheff1]

I noticed someone trying to purchase a ticket from at a TVM shrug his shoulders, walked away from the TVM and joined the ticket office queue. There was prompt on the TVM after he left it saying something like "This ticket is only via Stockport. Are you sure you want to buy it?" Obviously too confusing for some passengers.

Perhaps he wanted a train which doesn't go via Stockport, eg the 2222 MAN-SHF ? Of course a 'via Stockport' ticket is valid on the 2222, even though it does not go via Stockport - obvious really.