Told off for trying to buy a ticket

[Yorkshirepud]

I travel regularly from Menston to Leeds for work. Not every day, so a weekly ticket isn't always suitable. So I tend to buy a ticket each morning, from the ticket machine or the ticket office.

Other than Mondays, or the first working day of the month, the ticket office tends to be quiet and I've never had a problem buying a ticket. The conductors also sell tickets on the train, a service I've used a couple of times when I've been stuck behind a tractor on my drive to Menston.

Today, I found the ticket machine out of action (actually, the error message said, 'out of tickets'). I'd got to the station ten minutes before the train was due to depart, and the next train would have left half an hour later than the train I set out to catch. I went into the ticket office and found a very long queue, containing around fifteen people, no doubt as a consequence of the broken ticket machine. I knew that I had no chance of buying a ticket before my train left. Remember that the Menston ticket office usually doesn't have a queue of more than one or two people.

So I thought that I'd try to buy a ticket on the train (I had to be at an 8 am meeting). The conductor didn't walk along the train with the ticket machine, so on arrival at Leeds I went to the excess fares window. I noticed a couple of people in fluorescent jackets hanging about.

When I asked for a return from Menston, one of them pounced. He had the air of somebody who was delighted to be given an opportunity to give somebody a good telling off, and seemed particularly pleased to have found a smartly dressed woman to have a go at. To cut a long story short, the revenue protection person told me what I already knew - that I was supposed to buy a ticket before I travelled. I explained that I'd made all reasonable attempts to do so, and that Northern had failed to provide adequate ticket buying facilities, but nothing was going to stop him ranting. I was eventually allowed to buy a ticket, but he was extremely difficult about it.

I don't understand why Northern are allowed to behave like this. Are we supposed to dumbly accept broken ticket machines, unusually large queues to buy tickets, etc. and miss important appointments because Northern Rail can't provide suitable ticket buying opportunities at the station of departure?

I'm particularly annoyed because I was honest, was told off for it and was very nearly written up with a 'failure to purchase' notice. I did everything I reasonably could to buy a ticket - arrived at Menston in good time and tried to buy from both the machine and the ticket office - and was truthful about where I'd boarded. If I'd just lied and said that I'd got on at one of the stations on the Wharfedale line without ticketing facilities, I would have been fine!

As an aside, where do Northern find these revenue protection people? I've encountered a few of them at Shipley and found them equally hopeless. I asked a couple of them to support me after I'd asked some people to take their feet off the seats on platform 3 and the people doing it turned abusive, and the revenue protection people's response was, "that's not my job".

 

[island]

Unfortunately, the law is on Northern's side. When you chose to join a train without a ticket, you committed a criminal offence for which you could have been prosecuted. It may not seem fair, but it is how it is.

 

[yorkie]

Write to Northern, however realistically this isn't going to achieve much but you have to do that as a first step. Then take the matter to Transport Focus. If enough people do this maybe something will happen. But I doubt it.

I advise you contact your MP. Hopefully others will too.

However I do not believe there is anything we can do about this sort of treatment.

You could try get Northern to specify how much time you should allow to buy a ticket before you can buy on the train. I doubt they will ever answer that question though but if they don't answer keep escalating the matter. Northern state they will "try to ensure you will not have to wait more than five minutes in busy periods" however if you have to wait longer - as you discovered - you can still be threatened with a 'failure to pay' notice and/or be prosecuted. So that commitment to 'try' doesn't seem to be very useful. What we need is a commitment to that if you arrive X minutes (maybe 10?) before you train is due and you can't buy a ticket you can buy on board.

Did they take any details from you or just sell the ticket in the end?

Let us know how you get on.

 

[100andthirty]

I would take a minute or so to photograph the ticket machine and the queue taking account of the date/time stamp in the photo to show a) that you arrived in a reasonable time - ie more than 5 minutes - and it was unreasonable therefore to buy a ticket.

It is clear (isn't it?) that if the TVM is broken and the ticket office is closed then it's not reasonable to buy a ticket. What if the ticket office is closed because the member of staff is on a break and it is due to reopen 5 mins after the next, hourly, train leaves?

The point of all this is that there seem to be too many staff who apply the letter of the law and seems to enjoy doing it to the those who are unlikely to respond - likecto OP. I think the maxim is......the customer is always wrong.

What also seems to be interesting is that the same TOC names come up time and again and others don't seem to get so many mentions. Is that true or just a perception?

 

[34D]

Agree with you that this is unacceptable. Just started a thread on this very issue actually http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=120712

 

[yorkie]

I would take a minute or so to photograph the ticket machine and the queue taking account of the date/time stamp in the photo to show a) that you arrived in a reasonable time - ie more than 5 minutes - and it was unreasonable therefore to buy a ticket.

It is clear (isn't it?) that if the TVM is broken and the ticket office is closed then it's not reasonable to buy a ticket. What if the ticket office is closed because the member of staff is on a break and it is due to reopen 5 mins after the next, hourly, train leaves?

Then the ticket office is closed and you may board the train without a ticket.

The point of all this is that there seem to be too many staff who apply the letter of the law and seems to enjoy doing it to the those who are unlikely to respond - likecto OP. I think the maxim is......the customer is always wrong.

There are very few staff who do this!

Also the person who approached Yorkshirepud was possibly agency staff rather than a direct Northern employee.

What also seems to be interesting is that the same TOC names come up time and again and others don't seem to get so many mentions. Is that true or just a perception?

It's absolutely true, and I know numerous people who have had very bad experiences, however this is best discussed in these threads:-

• Northern's £80 settlements and lack of incentive for Northern to provide facilities
• the damage done by zealous revenue activities

 

[gray1404]

Unfortunately, the law is on Northern's side. When you chose to join a train without a ticket, you committed a criminal offence for which you could have been prosecuted. It may not seem fair, but it is how it is.

Due to the fact the ticket office was open you see. It all seems very unfair on the customer who has acted reasonably like you have. The good news is they did not take any action on this occasion.

 

[PermitToTravel]

I don't understand why Northern are allowed to behave like this. Are we supposed to dumbly accept broken ticket machines, unusually large queues to buy tickets, etc. and miss important appointments because Northern Rail can't provide suitable ticket buying opportunities at the station of departure?

Yep, that's what the law says.

As an aside, where do Northern find these revenue protection people?

It's an agency that also supplies bouncers and shop security guards

 

[GatwickDepress]

Northern also pinch the good agency staff, from what I've heard!

 

[Yorkshirepud]

Thanks for your helpful replies. I didn't get a failure to purchase notice in the end, but the bouncer, sorry, revenue protection inspector (that made me laugh!) was all for doing it until I argued vigorously back.

I will see what Transport Focus and my MP say. In the meantime, I'll be at the station 15 minutes early, just in case!

 

[CheesyChips]

Northern also pinch the good agency staff, from what I've heard!

Then what are the bad ones like!?

 

[gray1404]

Thanks for your helpful replies. I didn't get a failure to purchase notice in the end, but the bouncer, sorry, revenue protection inspector (that made me laugh!) was all for doing it until I argued vigorously back.

I will see what Transport Focus and my MP say. In the meantime, I'll be at the station 15 minutes early, just in case!

Sadly, arguing back doesn't always work on them, but I am delighted to read that it did here.

You can go directly to your MP at this point, nothing stopping you. Before you can take your case to Transport Focus, you have to give Northern a chance to respond to it. Otherwise, Transport Foucs will just direct you to Northern.

Once Northern have responded to you and if you at that point remain unhappy with their reply (highly likely!), then you can contact TF.

Well done for sticking to your runs and holding Northern to account on this!

 

[185]

Northern also pinch the good agency staff, from what I've heard!

We stole three recently aswell. Beat NR to it :P

 

[SussexMan]

So why does Northern Rail have a Passenger Charter?

If you board a train without a ticket at a station where ticket purchasing facilities are available the conductor will only sell you the full price single or return fare and you will not be entitled to any discounts or special terms which would otherwise apply. Where fraudulent travel is involved it is our policy to seek criminal prosecution.

Full Charter

 

[yorkie]

So why does Northern Rail have a Passenger Charter?

All Train Companies must have a Passengers Charter.

However there doesn't appear to be any enforcement of it. Neither the DfT nor ORR are likely to be particularly bothered and neither are going to go looking for breaches. The DfT want subsidy to be low, so they are hardly interested in passenger rights! Reporting breaches to the ORR and DfT might possibly see some enforcement if enough people do it. Of course, hardly anyone will do that, so I don't think Northern will be particularly worried about the prospect of any enforcement action.

 

[34D]

So why does Northern Rail have a Passenger Charter?



Full Charter

Surely this is enough to get anyone off a byelaw 18 prosecution?

We need someone in a low paid job (or otherwise impecunious) to be prepared to be taken to court over this.

 

[Aeion]

Most people caught up in that situation go and knock on the guards door and say I need a ticket as the queue was far too long is that ok, or they come and mention it on the platform. Having done that and either guard saying no problem or I'm sorry I have no/broken machine etc means then that RPI's can't do anything. But jumping on the train and taking a seat hoping the guard comes around does leave you open to someone "having a word"

 

[island]

Surely this is enough to get anyone off a byelaw 18 prosecution?

We need someone in a low paid job (or otherwise impecunious) to be prepared to be taken to court over this.

I'm sure we've discussed this before and the conclusion was that the charter does not constitute permission to board a train without a ticket, merely notification that discounted fares may be refused to someone who does so.

 

[northwichcat]

From the Northern Rail's passenger charter:

When purchasing a rail ticket for
immediate travel, we will try to ensure you will not have
to wait more than five minutes in busy periods and three
minutes at all other times.

The opening hours of the ticket office will be displayed at
each station. We will display details of busy times at
ticket offices to help you avoid delays.

http://www.northernrail.org/pdfs/passengers_charter_july2012.pdf

I've never seen information about busy times being displayed and have found queues to exceed those times frequently. So maybe anyone told off for not buying a tickets when queues exceed those times should write to Northern reminding them of their own targets and if they don't get a satisfactory response, then take it up with Transport Focus and/or their MP?

 

[Camden]

Thanks for your helpful replies. I didn't get a failure to purchase notice in the end, but the bouncer, sorry, revenue protection inspector (that made me laugh!) was all for doing it until I argued vigorously back.

I will see what Transport Focus and my MP say. In the meantime, I'll be at the station 15 minutes early, just in case!

Having to be at the station so long before the train is due to depart affects the competitiveness of rail versus car journeys.

At a time when the government is seeking to encourage public transport journeys and in particular seeking to enhance connectivity between northern towns and cities (the "Northern Powerhouse") such treatment as you received I would consider to be incompatible and undermining to this wider environmental and economic aim, in both elongating journeys, rather than making them shorter, and by making rail travel generally unpleasant and off-putting for those willing to pay the high prices for it.

 

[DaleCooper]

I seem to have read the original post differently to everyone else, this is what I understood:

Passenger fails to buy ticket at first opportunity.
Passenger being an honest person goes to buy a ticket at destination.
RPI or whoever it was takes the passenger aside and explains the requirement to buy a ticket before travel
A discussion takes place of which we have only heard one side
Passenger is allowed to buy ticket and is not penalised for failing to buy at first opportunity

Seems like a reasonable outcome.

 

[bradders1983]

I seem to have read the original post differently to everyone else, this is what I understood:

Passenger fails to buy ticket at first opportunity.
.

You make it sound like he went out of his way to avoid the ticket machine and/or office at Menston, we both know this is not what happened.

 

[100andthirty]

I seem to have read the original post differently to everyone else, this is what I understood:

Passenger fails to buy ticket at first opportunity.
Passenger being an honest person goes to buy a ticket at destination.
RPI or whoever it was takes the passenger aside and explains the requirement to buy a ticket before travel
A discussion takes place of which we have only heard one side
Passenger is allowed to buy ticket and is not penalised for failing to buy at first opportunity

Seems like a reasonable outcome.

Yes, it is reasonable if the discussion was as calm as you suggest. The OP suggested otherwise
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Having to be at the station so long before the train is due to depart affects the competitiveness of rail versus car journeys.

At a time when the government is seeking to encourage public transport journeys and in particular seeking to enhance connectivity between northern towns and cities (the "Northern Powerhouse") such treatment as you received I would consider to be incompatible and undermining to this wider environmental and economic aim, in both elongating journeys, rather than making them shorter, and by making rail travel generally unpleasant and off-putting for those willing to pay the high prices for it.

Rail is a walk up service. There is little or no guidance I have seen about how long one should allow to buy a ticket. 5 to 10 minutes seems reasonable to me. 20 minutes plus does not.

 

[DaleCooper]

You make it sound like he went out of his way to avoid the ticket machine and/or office at Menston, we both know this is not what happened.

I didn't mean it to sound that way but that was the first opportunity as the RPI presumably explained. What bothers me is the spin that has been put on the story by some posters to the effect that an innocent, respectable, smartly dressed woman was accosted by a thug who works on the door of a nightclub in the evenings. Where is the usual "she was being told what she didn't want to hear" in defence of the RPI who after all was doing what they're paid for.

I stress I'm trying not to take sides but to see the situation from both sides and in the light of other, similar threads.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes, it is reasonable if the discussion was as calm as you suggest. The OP suggested otherwise

I didn't suggest the discussion was calm, I said we have only heard, and will only ever hear, one side.

 

[Ianno87]

Reminds me of Cambridge station one sunny Saturday morning last year.

A typical Saturday morning at Cambridge is long queues out of the station door as (seemingly) at least a third of the city heads to London for the day; not helped by a higher-than-usual proportion of tourists/international students using the ticket machines, whose first language is often not English.

This particular Saturday morning, the queues were sufficiently long that Greater Anglia(at the time) suddenly flung open all of the station barriers and then announced over the PA "Passengers for King's Cross, please get on the train and buy your tickets on arrival* at King's Cross". Never known that done before, and wondered if it put such passengers on shaky legal ground, particularly in that Greater Anglia staff (who manage the barriers at Cambridge) are advising passengers to board a [then] FCC service without a ticket.

*Ironically, I recall the barriers at King's Cross being open when I arrived anyway, so no doubt many fares were lost - I had pre-booked and collected my ticket anyway so carried on regardless.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Passenger is allowed to buy ticket and is not penalised for failing to buy at first opportunity

Seems like a reasonable outcome.

Yep, I'd agree with that. I also thought it read very much like the passenger was simply told something they didn't want to hear.

As they bought the ticket and weren't given a Penalty Fake, I really don't see the problem?

 

[bradders1983]

uch like the passenger was simply told something they didn't want to hear.

As they bought the ticket and weren't given a Penalty Fake, I really don't see the problem?

In this case yes, no problem. However not everyone is going to be as confident as the OP in defending themselves.

 

[DaleCooper]

In this case yes, no problem. However not everyone is going to be as confident as the OP in defending themselves.

Was the outcome due to the OPs confidence or the RPIs common sense? We shall never know.

 

[SussexMan]

I'm sure we've discussed this before and the conclusion was that the charter does not constitute permission to board a train without a ticket, merely notification that discounted fares may be refused to someone who does so.

I cannot see the section where it says "discounted fares may be refused". It says "the conductor will only sell you the full price [ticket]". Doesn't say "might", doesn't say "should", it says "will".

I would say that it would seem very wise to make a point of hunting out the conductor in the OP's situation if at all possible.

 

[crehld]

I didn't mean it to sound that way but that was the first opportunity as the RPI presumably explained. What bothers me is the spin that has been put on the story by some posters to the effect that an innocent, respectable, smartly dressed woman was accosted by a thug who works on the door of a nightclub in the evenings. Where is the usual "she was being told what she didn't want to hear" in defence of the RPI who after all was doing what they're paid for.

I stress I'm trying not to take sides but to see the situation from both sides and in the light of other, similar threads.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I didn't suggest the discussion was calm, I said we have only heard, and will only ever hear, one side.

It's true we only do have one side of the story. You could always try out the excess fares queue at Leeds for yourself. I hope you have thick skin!

I find being approached by one of the fluorescent army while queuing to be an excellent test of one's patience and composure when being spoken to in a rude and condescending manner.

It's already been noted that the polite and competent ones have been snapped up by the TOCs themselves.