Future of Island Line

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Because if the ferry company pulled out it would be to the massive disadvantage of non-car-using residents and visitors.

I will be honest and say that all our recent vehicular visits from Portsmouth to the Isle of Wight have entailed the use of the Wightlink ferry to Fishbourne, which does not require a long pier facility.

 

[theageofthetra]

Re a bus turnaround-just install an HGV turntable like those installed in quite a few City of London and Canary Wharf office loading bays?

 

[jon0844]

Given it was just a handful of people from my rather well loaded boat that used the train, clearly a lot of people are either getting into taxis or walking the pier already - rather than wait 35-40 minutes for the train.

The pier head emptied out pretty quickly, leaving us and maybe 5 or 6 other families, waiting. Of course, I don't know how many arrived by train (the train that we just missed would have been perfect for those going back to the mainland).

 

[MarkyT]

Might work, but something based on a milk float type vehicle with a lightweight fibreglass body would probably be adequate and far, far cheaper.

The chassis of the prototype vehicle I rode at Ultra's test track in Cardiff in the early 2000s was based on a golf cart!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The chassis of the prototype vehicle I rode at Ultra's test track in Cardiff in the early 2000s was based on a golf cart!

A long wheelbase golf cart with sides may well be an entirely suitable type of vehicle. There are plenty on the market with 8 seats and similar.

Edit: or even better this:
http://www.epowertrucks.co.uk/electric-multi-passenger-vehicles/14-seat-electric-passenger-bus

 

[MarkyT]

A long wheelbase golf cart with sides may well be an entirely suitable type of vehicle. There are plenty on the market with 8 seats and similar.

Edit: or even better this:
http://www.epowertrucks.co.uk/electric-multi-passenger-vehicles/14-seat-electric-passenger-bus

Probably needs to be a little more enclosed for all weather operation in UK. . . on a pier! Take out the driver and replace with Google robocar technology. Now run them on a dedicated lightly constructed roadway on demand along the pier and you've got something very much like the Ultra pod, which was itself designed to be a much cheaper alternative to traditional larger airport APM shuttle systems offered by the big manufacturers like Bombardier and Siemens. Then extend that technology all over the island, firstly by taking over the railway alignment to Shankline, then adding short street running extensions, and finally restoring the Ventnor section (with a street running extension to sea level), and building new dedicated routes to Newport and Cowes.

 

[jopsuk]

I wonder if we might see Wightlink interested in bidding for the Islandline operation?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Probably needs to be a little more enclosed for all weather operation in UK. . . on a pier! Take out the driver and replace with Google robocar technology. Now run them on a dedicated lightly constructed roadway on demand along the pier and you've got something very much like the Ultra pod, which was itself designed to be a much cheaper alternative to traditional larger airport APM shuttle systems offered by the big manufacturers like Bombardier and Siemens. Then extend that technology all over the island, firstly by taking over the railway alignment to Shankline, then adding short street running extensions, and finally restoring the Ventnor section (with a street running extension to sea level), and building new dedicated routes to Newport and Cowes.

...and you have a costly white elephant, far more expensive than the present operations.

 

[MarkyT]

Another thought. London's DLR may be looking for some additional rolling stock, perhaps also replacing some of their existing fleet, so a cascade might release some of their older vehicles for use on the island. The DLR vehicles are slightly narrower and lower than standard mainline or subsurface stock and the shorter articulated sections mean they may have fewer problems with lateral clearance through tight curves in Ryde tunnels. The electrification system on the island might be renewed as the much safer DLR style shrouded bottom contact third rail, and perhaps automation could be considered with a train captain pressing the go button rather than a driver, hence cutting crew costs without getting rid of the 'guard'. If DLR vehicles turn out not to be available, there are a handful of German high floor Stadtbahn networks that are planning major fleet renewals in the near future, so similar second-hand tram-derived vehicles may become available from that source.
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...and you have a costly white elephant, far more expensive than the present operations.

Well clearly it would be a large capital outlay compared to the big fat zero being spent currently, but the idea would be to create something eventually that would be much more attractive, faster and reliable than the railway or even the buses, thus potentially attracting much more volume to help pay for the investment, and all for a much lower operating cost with a smaller staff and a lighter more capable infrastructure. Surely if we believes automated road vehicles in normal traffic will actually become 'a thing' in the near future, then running such things on a dedicated alignment will be even easier, and will produce a faster and more reliable service at all times than could ever be achieved on public roads. I'm not advocating a large-scale conversion of railways to such technology, but the unique challenges of the island could represent a unique and self-contained opportunity to try something completely new. It would only be a white elephant if few people used it, but equally without a substantial increase in ridership any investment in new rail vehicles would also be such a creature.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Would any of the routes of the former rail lines that once served Newport be available for use or have these all now been totally obliterated by construction since the days of closure?

 

[67018]

Would any of the routes of the former rail lines that once served Newport be available for use or have these all now been totally obliterated by construction since the days of closure?

Well, most of the line from Ryde towards Newport is occupied by the steam railway so presumably could be upgraded. Much of the Cowes route is a cycleway. The tricky bit is in Newport itself where the route has been pretty much obliterated, although arguably the roundabout from hell in the middle of town could be converted to rail and things could hardly be worse.

 

[30907]

Obviously cost would be an issue and funding would have to be raised, but as far as the steam railway is concerned, is there room for a track to be laid alongside the island line as far as Ryde St. John's? Smallbrook could then be closed which would slightly improve journey times at least, as well as giving a direct connection from Newport (outskirts!) to Ryde.

Would require land take. An alternative, though it would be costly in signalling terms, would be to revert to parallel single lines AND reinstate the loop at Brading or double track south of Brading, discussed at length above, which would allow a 30 minute or 20 minute service respectively. Somehow I don't see it happening....

 

[MarkyT]

Would any of the routes of the former rail lines that once served Newport be available for use or have these all now been totally obliterated by construction since the days of closure?

The old route from Ryde via Havenstreet is used by the steam railway as far as Wootton. Beyond there (over the old level crossing) the alignment is still clear through Binfield as far as Halberry Lane which is just under a kilometer from Medina Way where it crosses the river by the quay and has completely obliterated the old formation and station area. Beyond Halberry Lane, the right of way is largely clear of buildings but gets increasingly difficult with cuttings filled in, bridges removed and sections in use as residential car parking and access paths. Just before you get to the old tunnel beneath the main road there is a substantial new development (Beatrice Terrace) which blocks the alignment and is almost certainly impossible to divert around. All the previous obstacles might be fairly easily overcome at a price, but these new houses would certainly be very expensive and difficult to purchase and remove, which means that the nearest a commercial heavy railway station could practically get along the old route would be just before that, placing buffer stops around 400m from the Medina Way bridge, with access to the town via by the footpath through the old rail underpass, down to the quay, then under Medina Way.

With the more limited finances and political clout of a purely heritage operation I expect the steam railway might be able to make it as far as Halberry Lane if they so desired, an extension of around 2.5km from their current terminus.

An alternative rail alignment could diverge from the historic route and bridge the A3054 at Binfield then cross fields to follow the riverside footpath into a new terminal station near Newport Quay, this would pass right through the middle of the music festival site and a station could be included there serving the Medina school and leisure centre. Newport town centre would be a short largely traffic free level walk from the new Quay station, alongside the harbour and under the Medina way road bridge (buffers only about 150m walk from Medina Way Bridge).

Street running trams solutions could clearly leave the old rail alignment closer in as they approach the centre or use LRV turning and climbing capabilities to make more tortuous diversions around the housing obstacle whilst being able to cross and run alongside roads and pedestrian paths in this area without the full segregation of a traditional heavy rail solution. An automated street capable APM like my Ultra + Google robocar should be even more capable in this respect.

In any scenario I would like to see the steam railway survive and flourish, even if running alongside and on the same tracks for part of the way as any modernised and extended public railway service or alongside an innovative automated solution. I think with separate platforms at the termini and additional passing loops, steam could inter-run with non-electrified public services on the Ryde St John - Wootton section with DMUs extending on to Newport Quay station in one direction and on to Esplanade and Pier Head at Ryde. If an Ultra or similar APM network was developed, new parallel guideway could be constructed along the steam railway corridor, broadly following the same alignment, but with the vehicles' better climbing and curving capability able to route the guideway sufficiently far away, just the other side of the fence perhaps so to not spoil the historic railway atmosphere and experience.

 

[Rick1984]

I'd lived on IOW type a year and your much more likely to miss your connection in Portsmouth than Ryde. Your then stuck in the filthy Costa for an hour, which doesn't even serve alcohol anymore.

The trains are comfortable except maybe the legroom and it's funny watching people get bounced around and fun as you do the same. I was on 007 recently and was certainly shaken not stirred! ??????

Is 002 the one with Raptor in the number slot? It won't go anywhere again I'd think.
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Also I see no reason why the steam railway could extend to St Johns

 

[MarkyT]

Would require land take. An alternative, though it would be costly in signalling terms, would be to revert to parallel single lines AND reinstate the loop at Brading or double track south of Brading, discussed at length above, which would allow a 30 minute or 20 minute service respectively. Somehow I don't see it happening....

With three platform faces available at St Johns and, importantly, space for three tracks under the road bridge there, the Island line operation could be reduced to a simple single line from the new Brading loop to the Pier Head terminus, retaining points only for access to the depot and running through platform 3, the out-of-use back face of platform 2, closest to the depot. That would avoid a lot of infrastructure renewals in the long term - many turnouts, life expired maintenance intensive mechanical signalling etc. The remaining surplus infrastructure at St. Johns, including the signal box could be handed over to the steam railway who could reconfigure it to operate an independent track to Smallbrook Junction and beyond, using platforms 1 and 2 at St. Johns.

 

[nuneatonmark]

With three platform faces available at St Johns and, importantly, space for three tracks under the road bridge there, the Island line operation could be reduced to a simple single line from the new Brading loop to the Pier Head terminus, retaining points only for access to the depot and running through platform 3, the out-of-use back face of platform 2, closest to the depot. That would avoid a lot of infrastructure renewals in the long term - many turnouts, life expired maintenance intensive mechanical signalling etc. The remaining surplus infrastructure at St. Johns, including the signal box could be handed over to the steam railway who could reconfigure it to operate an independent track to Smallbrook Junction and beyond, using platforms 1 and 2 at St. Johns.

This sounds like a very sensible solution as moving the passing point to Brading would allow evenly spaced trains rather than the dog's breakfast now. Is there anyone with the vision to actually get this funded and implemented?

 

[Chris125]

How about the ferry company investing in a brand-new comfortable 2-car rail shuttle vehicle of the same weight and seating capacity as the existing train to perform the task of taking ferry foot passengers from the Pier Head to the Esplanade Interchange along the existing rail track, should the rail service as such no longer exist.

At least you seem to accept that making people walk along a half mile pier in all weathers and seasons is not a great way of encouraging the use of public transport.

I will be honest and say that all our recent vehicular visits from Portsmouth to the Isle of Wight have entailed the use of the Wightlink ferry to Fishbourne, which does not require a long pier facility.

There are 140,000+ people who live on the Island all year round, don't you think public transport on the Island should also reflect their needs too? Residents, especially those commuting for work, depend on the Red Jet, Catamaran and Hovercraft and they need to be accessible by public transport.

Obviously cost would be an issue and funding would have to be raised, but as far as the steam railway is concerned, is there room for a track to be laid alongside the island line as far as Ryde St. John's? Smallbrook could then be closed which would slightly improve journey times at least, as well as giving a direct connection from Newport (outskirts!) to Ryde.

If a half hourly service is introduced then trains will need to pass at or near Brading, removing their need for the Up line between Smallbrook and Ryde St Johns.

Closing Smallbrook wouldn't improve the timetable, if anything it should become a regular stop - a newly approved housing development alongside would put the nearby business park and the Island's largest supermarket within walking distance.

This sounds like a very sensible solution as moving the passing point to Brading would allow evenly spaced trains rather than the dog's breakfast now. Is there anyone with the vision to actually get this funded and implemented?

There was some suggestion it could come about alongside resignalling a few years back, before that was deferred by Network Rail - I believe the concept has the support of both SWT and the Steam Railway, and seems to be a win-win for all concerned.

Chris

 

[30907]

With three platform faces available at St Johns and, importantly, space for three tracks under the road bridge there, the Island line operation could be reduced to a simple single line from the new Brading loop to the Pier Head terminus, retaining points only for access to the depot and running through platform 3, the out-of-use back face of platform 2, closest to the depot. That would avoid a lot of infrastructure renewals in the long term - many turnouts, life expired maintenance intensive mechanical signalling etc. The remaining surplus infrastructure at St. Johns, including the signal box could be handed over to the steam railway who could reconfigure it to operate an independent track to Smallbrook Junction and beyond, using platforms 1 and 2 at St. Johns.

I'd give the Steam Railway P1 only and retain a loop, and possibly double track to and from Esplanade to give some flexibility and allow for more frequent trains.

On reflection Brading-Pier Head-Brading in 30 minutes is just too tight with present stock and line speed, though I think you could extend the loop north using the space used by the Bembridge branch....

 

[MarkyT]

. . . Brading-Pier Head-Brading in 30 minutes is just too tight with present stock and line speed, though I think you could extend the loop north using the space used by the Bembridge branch....

From RTT, running times today of 14 minutes (up) and 13 minutes (down) apply typically with Smallbrook Jn stops, so that leaves 3 minutes turnround at Pier Head. Journey time might be reduced a little if the Smallbrook Junction stop was removed but, whilst it would no longer be required for interchange with the steam railway, others here suggest it could become a more important stop in future with road access provided and new housing in the area.

https://youtu.be/1H9EV0iT0dQ

With my Penryn-style layout as illustrated above, the up platform (1) extension of 100m could be built between the existing ramp end and the public footpath level crossing just to the north of the station, with the new bypass loop extending parallel to the existing track over the foot crossing and far enough to the north to accommodate a suitable clear signal overlap for the up platfrom signal (Assuming 40MPH approach speed, the overlap required would be 80m). I think that all should fit in the old branch junction area as you suggest. At Penryn, the distance between the two sections of usable platform is 80m to accommodate the turnout, so taking that into account and a 100m down platform (2), a 60m extension to the south would be required.

 

[jon0844]

...making people walk along a half mile pier in all weathers and seasons is not a great way of encouraging the use of public transport.

True, but now I know how it all works, I'd actually be happy to walk (even in bad weather - I've been in some pretty nasty weather conditions before) the pier to get a bus than wait for the train, and still need to get a bus at the other end - or a long walk.

First time visitors will probably go for the train, but now I know it's not that great. Still, SWT has done alright from me; two years of season tickets and one single trip!

I'd still like to know how much SWT has lost now that anyone wanting a cheap Gold Card will have stopped buying this particular season. Given some papers and many websites have given that as a 'top tip' in the past, it could well be a few hundred people or more.

 

[Chris125]

I'd give the Steam Railway P1 only and retain a loop, and possibly double track to and from Esplanade to give some flexibility and allow for more frequent trains.

I really can't see the need, they can run 3tph with the current setup but have very rarely done so and I see no reason to think that will change.

A possible advantage of singling Esplanade-St Johns might be realigning the sharp curves to raise the 20mph speed limit, which would also help with timetabling.

True, but now I know how it all works, I'd actually be happy to walk (even in bad weather - I've been in some pretty nasty weather conditions before) the pier to get a bus than wait for the train, and still need to get a bus at the other end - or a long walk.

Of course, but please understand that's its very different for those who live and work on the Island - especially those who travel regularly or commute every day via the Catamaran all year round.

Chris

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

In fact I'm surprised some of the northern contingent on here haven't suggest converting some Pacers to third rail

Could somebody not try to convert some pacers to 3rd rail as a trial and see if that would work?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There are 140,000+ people who live on the Island all year round, don't you think public transport on the Island should also reflect their needs too? Residents, especially those commuting for work, depend on the Red Jet, Catamaran and Hovercraft and they need to be accessible by public transport.

My recent posts have referred to the provision of public transport ON the Isle of Wight. For some reason, there are those on this thread who have a distinct aversion to my naming the operator of the bus services involved, so in this particular posting, I accede to their wishes.

Of the 140,000+ population on the Isle of Wight, what percentage of these commute on a daily basis to and from the mainland? The use of the ferries that you name above are a link onto the mainland and cannot be referred to as public transport ON the island. Do those ferry operators classify themselves as public transport operators...or something different?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Could somebody not try to convert some pacers to 3rd rail as a trial and see if that would work?

It's possible that pacers wouldn't fit.

Maybe the Go-Ahead group could take over the Island Line, they could then try and integrate the Island Line timetable with the Southern Vectis services (and "The Key" could be introduced to the Island Line

 

[34D]

It's possible that pacers wouldn't fit.

Maybe the Go-Ahead group could take over the Island Line, they could then try and integrate the Island Line timetable with the Southern Vectis services (and "The Key" could be introduced to the Island Line

Surely the ideal is for Southern Vectis and the Isle of Man Steam Railway to have a meeting and propose a joint venture, ideally to include track maintenance too?

Trams could be procured that are 750v dc third rail, 750v dc pantograph, and battery. In the medium term, the trams would run Ryde to Sandown and Ryde to Wootton, whilst at the same time extensions to Ventnor (on street) and Newport/Cowes (also on street) could be considered.

Then one day a tunnel to portsmouth.

 

[Chris125]

Of the 140,000+ population on the Isle of Wight, what percentage of these commute on a daily basis to and from the mainland?

I don't know the percentage but they certainly make up a significant proportion of the foot traffic outside of the summer tourist season - the jobs market on the Island is very limited so for a lot of people, especially higher paid professionals, it's unavoidable and at least partially mitigates the 'brain drain' as so many young and educated move to the mainland to find work. There are even a few train drivers which commute across.

The use of the ferries that you name above are a link onto the mainland and cannot be referred to as public transport ON the island. Do those ferry operators classify themselves as public transport operators...or something different?

I said they need to be accessible by public transport, though I guess they are a form of it.

Chris

 

[Argosy]

My recent posts have referred to the provision of public transport ON the Isle of Wight. For some reason, there are those on this thread who have a distinct aversion to my naming the operator of the bus services involved, so in this particular posting, I accede to their wishes.

Of the 140,000+ population on the Isle of Wight, what percentage of these commute on a daily basis to and from the mainland? The use of the ferries that you name above are a link onto the mainland and cannot be referred to as public transport ON the island. Do those ferry operators classify themselves as public transport operators...or something different?

Not a lot I'd say. Of the 140,000 a lot are retired. Getting people to move to the Island is difficult. A number of people work in Portsmouth and both Portsmouth and Southampton would attract students to the Universities, teacher training etc.

One also has to remember it is expensive to commute on the ferries/hydrofoil/hovercraft as well as quite time consuming.
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There clearly are plenty of people using the train as the passenger figures illustrate. Your thought that the route needs to be somehow absorbed into a heritage railway sounds very much like (to use the phrase of another esteemed member of this forum) a solution looking for a problem.

Yes, the trains may only be two carriage most of the time, but the passengers support a relatively frequent service and as you point out, it supports the tourist industry.

However wonderful the bus service, it in no way justifies replacing the train.

I think absorbing the heritage railway is the only way to go. Covering only 25% of its revenue with no money set aside for re-investment seems a pretty ludicrous way ahead.

Having spent the majority of my life living/associated with the Island and probably one of the few posters who has both worked for Southern Vectis and been an operator it is not rocket science to suss out what has been happening. Too many posters are 'bogie freaks' and because of a love of trains are trying to make the railway fit. On the Island car and to some extent bus are king. The railway is an irrelevance to the vast majority of us because of the closures in the 1950's and 1960's. It just doesn't serve where we want to go.

If Wightlink could I'm sure they'd ditch Ryde and just serve Fishbourne. If we could have lightweight trams and the Council seriously attempted to bring them into Newport and Cowes that would be fine, but the costs would probably never every justify it. Hence the crazy decisions taken 50 - 60 years ago. That was what killed it all sadly.

I would have loved to have got the train from Yarmouth to Newport and would be quite happy to get a tram. It could in theory quite easily follow the old alignment out of Gunville all the way to Yarmouth then go along the road through the square and back down the old alignment to Freshwater. Newport would need street running from whatever direction. It is possible and is a future.

The trouble is our politicians just don't see that far....Hence why taking over the current operation as a heritage line could be the way ahead with maybe diesel trams providing a year round service. If a safe signalling system could be worked out.

 

[yorksrob]

Not a lot I'd say. Of the 140,000 a lot are retired. Getting people to move to the Island is difficult. A number of people work in Portsmouth and both Portsmouth and Southampton would attract students to the Universities, teacher training etc.

One also has to remember it is expensive to commute on the ferries/hydrofoil/hovercraft as well as quite time consuming.
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I think absorbing the heritage railway is the only way to go. Covering only 25% of its revenue with no money set aside for re-investment seems a pretty ludicrous way ahead.

Having spent the majority of my life living/associated with the Island and probably one of the few posters who has both worked for Southern Vectis and been an operator it is not rocket science to suss out what has been happening. Too many posters are 'bogie freaks' and because of a love of trains are trying to make the railway fit. On the Island car and to some extent bus are king. The railway is an irrelevance to the vast majority of us because of the closures in the 1950's and 1960's. It just doesn't serve where we want to go.

If Wightlink could I'm sure they'd ditch Ryde and just serve Fishbourne. If we could have lightweight trams and the Council seriously attempted to bring them into Newport and Cowes that would be fine, but the costs would probably never every justify it. Hence the crazy decisions taken 50 - 60 years ago. That was what killed it all sadly.

I would have loved to have got the train from Yarmouth to Newport and would be quite happy to get a tram. It could in theory quite easily follow the old alignment out of Gunville all the way to Yarmouth then go along the road through the square and back down the old alignment to Freshwater. Newport would need street running from whatever direction. It is possible and is a future.

The trouble is our politicians just don't see that far....Hence why taking over the current operation as a heritage line could be the way ahead with maybe diesel trams providing a year round service. If a safe signalling system could be worked out.

And yet who are all of the thousands of people using the line every year. Scotch mist?

Whilst the bucket and spade clientèle has declined over the decades (as it has in pretty much every resort on the South coast), I see no evidence in the passenger numbers that the route is in terminal decline.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

And yet who are all of the thousands of people using the line every year. Scotch mist? Whilst the bucket and spade clientèle has declined over the decades (as it has in pretty much every resort on the South coast), I see no evidence in the passenger numbers that the route is in terminal decline.

The annual Isle of Wight Festival is very well publicised and must attract a very large number of visitors each year. Do many of the attendees use the Island Line?

Unlike the Lancashire and Yorkshire resorts that have sandy beaches to allow fathers to fulfil their inner architect by constructing Disneyland in sand with a bucket and spade, many south coast resorts only allow you to collect bucketfuls of pebbles...:roll:

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The annual Isle of Wight Festival is very well publicised and must attract a very large number of visitors each year. Do many of the attendees use the Island Line?

I doubt it - the festivals are held in a field near Newport aren't they?