Londoners don't want to drive buses

[notadriver]

Are you saying a bus driver is more skilled and responsible than a train driver ?

 

[jon0844]

Nobody can be saying that. Sure, you could have a bus driver that is incredibly dedicated and highly qualified but it doesn't appear to be necessary. If a driver doesn't even know if he has a radio, let alone how to use one, I am not sure how responsible he could be in any sort of emergency.

Do train drivers need to prove they can speak basic English to be able to communicate over their radios? I assume so.

 

[Busaholic]

The 137 route is currently up for retender, if Arriva lose it what would they do with the LT's if they owned them?

The 137 only got the LTs because TfL officially changed their policy over 'customer assistants' when they did - those LTs were meant to go on the 159, also out of Arriva's Brixton garage, with c.a.s on the back. Now the 159 is changing hands, to Abellio, and will get LTs anyway, but not those from the 137! Interesting to see whether Sadiq Khan, if elected, has personal views on Borismasters, bendybuses or anything else bus-related.

 

[BestWestern]

Are you saying a bus driver is more skilled and responsible than a train driver ?

As a former PCV Driver I would argue that it is as skilled and demanding a job as my current position as a Guard. The bus vs train driving argument has been done to the death and back a hundred times, and really doesn't need to be brought back to life yet again here.

 

[notadriver]

As a former PCV Driver I would argue that it is as skilled and demanding a job as my current position as a Guard. The bus vs train driving argument has been done to the death and back a hundred times, and really doesn't need to be brought back to life yet again here.

It was whatitis that made the comment 'far more skilled and responsible position'

 

[90019]

It was whatitis that made the comment 'far more skilled and responsible position'

Though he didn't specify train drivers, just rail staff.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Are you saying a bus driver is more skilled and responsible than a train driver ?

I would say not MORE skilled but AS skilled... in different ways... while train drivers are responsible for more passengers on a vehicle that is harder to keep under control... train drivers do not have to deal with stupid passengers asking stupid questions.. nor do they have to share their "road space" with idiots that are determined to arrive 3 seconds before them or cutting them up.

To start an argument rail vs bus is to play into the hands of the bosses and shareholders.

At the end of the day bus drivers are constantly told they are "professionals". If that is so they should be paid a "professional" wage as train drivers are already... not the pittance that they are on... remember in many areas bus drivers are on minimum wage or just above... as I have stated many times before would you go to a lawyer or doctor who only charges minimum wage for their services?

I thought not...

 

[radamfi]

At the end of the day bus drivers are constantly told they are "professionals". If that is so they should be paid a "professional" wage as train drivers are already... not the pittance that they are on... remember in many areas bus drivers are on minimum wage or just above... as I have stated many times before would you go to a lawyer or doctor who only charges minimum wage for their services?

If a bus company advertised for drivers at £10 per hour, would anyone suitable apply?

If a law firm advertised for solicitors/barristers for £10 per hour, would anyone suitable apply?

If you want more than £10 per hour, then don't accept a job at £10 per hour! If enough people did that, then employers would be forced to pay more. Most people earn well over minimum wage, why do you think that is?

 

[jon0844]

Given my father in law was a bus driver, and a driving instructor, I'd regard him as a professional driver.

He was certainly somewhat surprised when he saw the quality of driving on our local buses, so I guess that if you pay little money then the good, conscientious, drivers go elsewhere.

It's arguably a race to the bottom that can't really happen on the railway. For that reason, I'd argue that the job is easier - in as much as bad drivers can probably get by for a lot longer than they ever could on the railway (assuming they could ever get there in the first place).

It will also come down to training, and if a bus operator is employing people without ever explaining basic things like how to use a radio, then the fault isn't entirely on the employee - although I'd like to think I'd have asked pretty early on during training about such a thing. If I didn't, would I be up for the job?

 

[Antman]

If a bus company advertised for drivers at £10 per hour, would anyone suitable apply?

If a law firm advertised for solicitors/barristers for £10 per hour, would anyone suitable apply?

If you want more than £10 per hour, then don't accept a job at £10 per hour! If enough people did that, then employers would be forced to pay more. Most people earn well over minimum wage, why do you think that is?

Many Londoners don't want a £10 an hour job which is why bus companies recruit directly from abroad

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

If a bus company advertised for drivers at £10 per hour, would anyone suitable apply?

If a law firm advertised for solicitors/barristers for £10 per hour, would anyone suitable apply?

If you want more than £10 per hour, then don't accept a job at £10 per hour! If enough people did that, then employers would be forced to pay more. Most people earn well over minimum wage, why do you think that is?

oh so it is MY fault that bus drivers don't get the pay they deserve for a responsible job? NOT the bosses who line their pockets and those of their shareholders while claiming there is no money in the pot to pay a decent wage?

How silly of me for wanting to earn a living, however badly paid, rather than sitting on my fat backside and claiming benefits.

FYI if all the decent drivers quit tomorrow wages and conditions wouldn't improve... all that would happen would be that the companies would start recruiting in Romania or Bulgaria... anywhere where £6.50/hr sounds impressive... of course they won't explain that at such a low wage their new recruits would struggle to make ends meet... ask any Polish person who was conned into taking a job on british buses!

MOST PEOPLE EARN WELL OVER THE MINIMUM WAGE? what planet are you on? The MAJORITY of people in this country are on less than £10/hr. you are obviously one of those who are lucky enough to earn an above average wage and whole heartedly support Thatcherism... ie "sod you mate I do ok"

 

[radamfi]

FYI if all the decent drivers quit tomorrow wages and conditions wouldn't improve... all that would happen would be that the companies would start recruiting in Romania or Bulgaria... anywhere where £6.50/hr sounds impressive... of course they won't explain that at such a low wage their new recruits would struggle to make ends meet... ask any Polish person who was conned into taking a job on british buses!

Poles, Romanians and Bulgarians also work in jobs paying over £10 per hour. Skilled people from these countries know that pay in the UK can easily be more than £6.50, so they won't accept such a poor wage if they can do better.

MOST PEOPLE EARN WELL OVER THE MINIMUM WAGE? what planet are you on? The MAJORITY of people in this country are on less than £10/hr. you are obviously one of those who are lucky enough to earn an above average wage and whole heartedly support Thatcherism... ie "sod you mate I do ok"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-25759780

The ONS said in December 2013, the average hourly earnings before tax for UK workers were £13.60 for men and £12.24 for women.

http://www.neighbourhood.statistics.gov.uk/HTMLDocs/dvc126/

shows that median (so an even better statistic than above as median is a more relevant "average" than the arithmetic mean) weekly wage in London is between £465 and £867 per week.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Poles, Romanians and Bulgarians also work in jobs paying over £10 per hour. Skilled people from these countries know that pay in the UK can easily be more than £6.50, so they won't accept such a poor wage if they can do better.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-25759780



http://www.neighbourhood.statistics.gov.uk/HTMLDocs/dvc126/

shows that median (so an even better statistic than above as median is a more relevant "average" than the arithmetic mean) weekly wage in London is between £465 and £867 per week.

you can quote as many statistics about average/ median/ mean weekly wage you like... remember that when average earnings are calculated they include the incomes of people such as Brian Souter, Richard Branson, George Osbourne and Roman Abramovitch

As to your comments about Bulgarians and Romanians knowing to get more than minimum wage... are you trying to say that Romanian and Bulgarian bus drivers get more than their British born fellow workers in any bus company.

GET REAL. Bus drivers are paid a pittance for the job they do. The unions were neutered by the 1985 Transport Act splitting up the NBC and forcing the privatisation into small units... Once the unions were broken the companies were allowed to reform into large (privately owned) groups... who all claim that there is no money to pay a decent wage despite the owners and shareholders making huge profits. As there are now no strong unions within the bus industry there will be no change to the situation until the companies are forced to pay a fair wage for the responsibility of the job.

Of course you may be on a good wage... do you realise that you are subsidising the bus industry paying poverty wages through your taxes? How do you feel about paying taxes for money to be given in "in work" benefits such as Tax Credits in order for shareholders and Owners to line their pockets?

 

[radamfi]

you can quote as many statistics about average/ median/ mean weekly wage you like... remember that when average earnings are calculated they include the incomes of people such as Brian Souter, Richard Branson, George Osbourne and Roman Abramovitch

Why do you think I made a point of mentioning the "median" wage? That is precisely because it screens out the effect of the super-rich. I shouldn't need to explain what the median is as it is basic GCSE maths, but to calculate the median, you put all the observations in a line and pick the middle one. If there are an even number of observations then you choose the arithmetic mean of the two middle ones. So by using the median, the few very rich people will make almost no difference to the average, whereas if you use the mean there is more of an effect.

As to your comments about Bulgarians and Romanians knowing to get more than minimum wage... are you trying to say that Romanian and Bulgarian bus drivers get more than their British born fellow workers in any bus company.

Not all Romanians and Bulgarians in the UK work on the buses. To get more money, they do other jobs. Unless they have a particular vocation (i.e. they really want to be bus drivers and nothing else) they won't do bus driving unless they are so unskilled they can't get a higher paid job.

Indeed, most people in the UK don't work on the buses. There is a world outside the bus industry where people work in engineering, finance, media, science, accountancy, teaching, healthcare, advertising, sales, software, need I go on? Have a look at the salaries on offer for skilled professionals in alternative industries and then come back to the thread.

 

[Robertj21a]

you can quote as many statistics about average/ median/ mean weekly wage you like... remember that when average earnings are calculated they include the incomes of people such as Brian Souter, Richard Branson, George Osbourne and Roman Abramovitch

As to your comments about Bulgarians and Romanians knowing to get more than minimum wage... are you trying to say that Romanian and Bulgarian bus drivers get more than their British born fellow workers in any bus company.

GET REAL. Bus drivers are paid a pittance for the job they do. The unions were neutered by the 1985 Transport Act splitting up the NBC and forcing the privatisation into small units... Once the unions were broken the companies were allowed to reform into large (privately owned) groups... who all claim that there is no money to pay a decent wage despite the owners and shareholders making huge profits. As there are now no strong unions within the bus industry there will be no change to the situation until the companies are forced to pay a fair wage for the responsibility of the job.

Of course you may be on a good wage... do you realise that you are subsidising the bus industry paying poverty wages through your taxes? How do you feel about paying taxes for money to be given in "in work" benefits such as Tax Credits in order for shareholders and Owners to line their pockets?

I fully accept that bus drivers aren't paid enough, but you are beginning to sound like you're stuck in a groove.....

Shareholders and owners deserve a fair return for their investment in any business - bus operations are no different. Why would they invest their money if they didn't get a fair return ?
If you had some savings would you accept a much lower interest rate than you could get elsewhere ?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

you can quote as many statistics about average/ median/ mean weekly wage you like... remember that when average earnings are calculated they include the incomes of people such as Brian Souter, Richard Branson, George Osbourne and Roman Abramovitch

As to your comments about Bulgarians and Romanians knowing to get more than minimum wage... are you trying to say that Romanian and Bulgarian bus drivers get more than their British born fellow workers in any bus company.

GET REAL. Bus drivers are paid a pittance for the job they do. The unions were neutered by the 1985 Transport Act splitting up the NBC and forcing the privatisation into small units... Once the unions were broken the companies were allowed to reform into large (privately owned) groups... who all claim that there is no money to pay a decent wage despite the owners and shareholders making huge profits. As there are now no strong unions within the bus industry there will be no change to the situation until the companies are forced to pay a fair wage for the responsibility of the job.

Of course you may be on a good wage... do you realise that you are subsidising the bus industry paying poverty wages through your taxes? How do you feel about paying taxes for money to be given in "in work" benefits such as Tax Credits in order for shareholders and Owners to line their pockets?

Ok Teflon - point made. We all concede that we'd like to see drivers paid more.

Let's look at YOUR figures in YOUR world.

• A London bus driver with Go Ahead is paid £10.50 per hour. At your minimum figure, they should be paid £18.00 per hour
  
• That is a variance of £7.50 per hour but actually it isn't. Employment costs (like NI etc) actually mean it's £9.00 per hour.
  
• So £9.00 x 39 hours per week x 52 weeks per year x 7000 drivers at Go Ahead London.

So the cost of this actual profession wage for Go Ahead London is £127m per year. Yet, Go Ahead London makes £41m per year profit.

Who funds the remainder?

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Not all Romanians and Bulgarians in the UK work on the buses. To get more money, they do other jobs. Unless they have a particular vocation (i.e. they really want to be bus drivers and nothing else) they won't do bus driving unless they are so unskilled they can't get a higher paid job.

Indeed, most people in the UK don't work on the buses. There is a world outside the bus industry where people work in engineering, finance, media, science, accountancy, teaching, healthcare, advertising, sales, software, need I go on? Have a look at the salaries on offer for skilled professionals in alternative industries and then come back to the thread.

hmmm.... so the majority of health care workers are on or above average wage are they? I'm sure all the nurses, homehelps, hospital cleaners etc would have to say about that... I note you didn't mention shop workers, cleaners, etc... all on barely above minimum wage... statistics are a wonderful thing... pick the ones you want and you can prove anything... just ask Iain Duncan Smith lol

I note you failed to answer my point about in work benefits... do you REALLY think it right that bus companies should be allowed to get away with paying wages to bus drivers that mean they are stuck on benefits? How would you feel about flying knowing that the pilots were on wages that meant they had to claim benefits to make ends meet?

tbh it really doesn't matter what other people earn... it doesn't detract from the fact that bus drivers are NOT paid commensurate to the responsibilities and skills they have!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I fully accept that bus drivers aren't paid enough, but you are beginning to sound like you're stuck in a groove.....

Shareholders and owners deserve a fair return for their investment in any business - bus operations are no different. Why would they invest their money if they didn't get a fair return ?
If you had some savings would you accept a much lower interest rate than you could get elsewhere ?

I don't disagree that shareholders should get a FAIR return on their investment... with the emphasis on FAIR... but should that be at the expense of others being forced to remain on benefits even after doing a 50+ hour week?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I fully accept that bus drivers aren't paid enough, but you are beginning to sound like you're stuck in a groove.....

Shareholders and owners deserve a fair return for their investment in any business - bus operations are no different. Why would they invest their money if they didn't get a fair return ?
If you had some savings would you accept a much lower interest rate than you could get elsewhere ?

I don't disagree that shareholders should get a FAIR return on their investment... with the emphasis on FAIR... but should that be at the expense of others being forced to remain on benefits even after doing a 50+ hour week?

 

[radamfi]

hmmm.... so the majority of health care workers are on or above average wage are they? I'm sure all the nurses, homehelps, hospital cleaners etc would have to say about that... I note you didn't mention shop workers, cleaners, etc... all on barely above minimum wage... statistics are a wonderful thing... pick the ones you want and you can prove anything... just ask Iain Duncan Smith lol

I didn't say average wage. I said well above minimum wage. Nursing is widely assumed to be a "low pay" job, but according to:

http://www.prospects.ac.uk/adult_nurse_salary.htm

fully trained nurses get £22K to £28K, more in London, and even more for senior nurses. That's considerably more than the minimum wage and more than bus drivers.

What is the relevance of shop workers and cleaners and others on minimum wage? I thought we were talking about highly skilled, professional people? Employers can easily recruit for those jobs so there is no need to pay them significantly more than minimum wage. That's presumably how it works in the bus industry too. The bus company can advertise, lots of people will apply, so they can take their pick. Still, bus drivers usually get a bit above minimum wage.

I'm not sure what the issue is with in-work benefits. Surely it is better to subsidise those who really need it rather than everyone getting it? If no-one got it, then the low paid would be even worse off. Don't assume employers would voluntarily make the difference, because that is not how capitalism works.

tbh it really doesn't matter what other people earn... it doesn't detract from the fact that bus drivers are NOT paid commensurate to the responsibilities and skills they have!

Actually, it is quite relevant. If more people were on as low pay as you are, then there would be even more competition for bus driver jobs, depressing pay further. At least you have a choice. If you want good pay, then get the right skills and enter an industry with better salaries. It is not as if bus driving has been well paid in the recent past. Most current drivers started knowing full well that it isn't well paid.

According to

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-34066941

there is a 61% risk that bus and coach drivers will be automated in the next 20 years.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I didn't say average wage. I said well above minimum wage. Nursing is widely assumed to be a "low pay" job, but according to:

http://www.prospects.ac.uk/adult_nurse_salary.htm

fully trained nurses get £22K to £28K, more in London, and even more for senior nurses. That's considerably more than the minimum wage and more than bus drivers.

Actually 22-28K IS what bus drivers are on in many areas... and before you crow about that means their paid enough... I also believe that nurses should be paid more!

What is the relevance of shop workers and cleaners and others on minimum wage? I thought we were talking about highly skilled, professional people?

seeing as you started comparing bus driver wages to average earnings then people on minimum wage have EVERY relevance to the argument seeing as though their wages are taken into consideration when calculating average earnings!

I'm not sure what the issue is with in-work benefits. Surely it is better to subsidise those who really need it rather than everyone getting it? If no-one got it, then the low paid would be even worse off. Don't assume employers would voluntarily make the difference, because that is not how capitalism works.

Actually it is very relevant... surely in one of the richest nations on earth it is an affront to society that someone doing a responsible, highly skilled job has to remain on benefits to make ends meet?

Furthermore you're forgetting that this Government is CUTTING in work benefits and EXPECTING employers to make up the difference by improving wage rates.

Actually, it is quite relevant. If more people were on as low pay as you are, then there would be even more competition for bus driver jobs, depressing pay further. At least you have a choice. If you want good pay, then get the right skills and enter an industry with better salaries. It is not as if bus driving has been well paid in the recent past. Most current drivers started knowing full well that it isn't well paid.

What an arrogant statement... because I choose the profession I have chosen I should put up with poverty wages? and if I want better money I should retrain and do a job I hate? GET REAL

According to

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-34066941

there is a 61% risk that bus and coach drivers will be automated in the next 20 years.

and according to "Tomorrows world" we would all now be eating 3 square pills a day, living in a fully automated house and all be living to 250!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

and according to "Tomorrows world" we would all now be eating 3 square pills a day, living in a fully automated house and all be living to 250!

And that's the single funniest thing I've read on here in weeks.

Now....where's my hoverboots???

 

[Robertj21a]

hmmm.... so the majority of health care workers are on or above average wage are they? I'm sure all the nurses, homehelps, hospital cleaners etc would have to say about that... I note you didn't mention shop workers, cleaners, etc... all on barely above minimum wage... statistics are a wonderful thing... pick the ones you want and you can prove anything... just ask Iain Duncan Smith lol

I note you failed to answer my point about in work benefits... do you REALLY think it right that bus companies should be allowed to get away with paying wages to bus drivers that mean they are stuck on benefits? How would you feel about flying knowing that the pilots were on wages that meant they had to claim benefits to make ends meet?

tbh it really doesn't matter what other people earn... it doesn't detract from the fact that bus drivers are NOT paid commensurate to the responsibilities and skills they have!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I don't disagree that shareholders should get a FAIR return on their investment... with the emphasis on FAIR... but should that be at the expense of others being forced to remain on benefits even after doing a 50+ hour week?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I don't disagree that shareholders should get a FAIR return on their investment... with the emphasis on FAIR... but should that be at the expense of others being forced to remain on benefits even after doing a 50+ hour week?

If you agree that shareholders should get a fair return on their investment, but you want drivers to be paid more, how do YOU suggest it's done ? Presumably you would put up fares ?

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

If you agree that shareholders should get a fair return on their investment, but you want drivers to be paid more, how do YOU suggest it's done ? Presumably you would put up fares ?

I don't think there is one simple solution... but surely a start would be to use the money saved on fuel (down 30p/litre in 18 months) into the pay packets of the drivers rather than pocketing the savings in higher profits/ dividends?

There is a saying "short term pain for long term gain"... perhaps if shareholders accepted a lower return on their investment in the short term to up the wages of the workers then they would eventually get a better calibre of staff... less passenger dissatisfaction.. higher usage... higher profits?

tbh I think the issue is more complicated than purely wage rates... yes bus drivers are paid too low a wage... but then add that to the inflexible attitude of management... "you will work any 4/5 out of 7... you WILL work every shift on a rolling rota..." and then you see the problem.

I used to work for a company that operated it's shifts much the same way as MacDonalds... you could work a traditional rota... you could work a fixed shift.. you could work fixed day... in short you could choose your work pattern... I was the allocations official at said company... yes it took marginally more work and effort to ensure that the work was covered... but despite the company paying on the lower side of the going rate for the area we had much higher staff satisfaction and lower turnover of staff than other companies...that says a lot

the trouble is bus company management want their cake and eat it... a case of give and take... the staff give all the time and management take.

 

[Robertj21a]

I don't think there is one simple solution... but surely a start would be to use the money saved on fuel (down 30p/litre in 18 months) into the pay packets of the drivers rather than pocketing the savings in higher profits/ dividends?

There is a saying "short term pain for long term gain"... perhaps if shareholders accepted a lower return on their investment in the short term to up the wages of the workers then they would eventually get a better calibre of staff... less passenger dissatisfaction.. higher usage... higher profits?

tbh I think the issue is more complicated than purely wage rates... yes bus drivers are paid too low a wage... but then add that to the inflexible attitude of management... "you will work any 4/5 out of 7... you WILL work every shift on a rolling rota..." and then you see the problem.

I used to work for a company that operated it's shifts much the same way as MacDonalds... you could work a traditional rota... you could work a fixed shift.. you could work fixed day... in short you could choose your work pattern... I was the allocations official at said company... yes it took marginally more work and effort to ensure that the work was covered... but despite the company paying on the lower side of the going rate for the area we had much higher staff satisfaction and lower turnover of staff than other companies...that says a lot

the trouble is bus company management want their cake and eat it... a case of give and take... the staff give all the time and management take.

I think the only obvious comment I can make is the one that you won't like.........

Nobody forces anybody to work as a bus driver. If you don't like the pay, hours, management, colleagues, vehicles - or any other conditions - then you leave and get a job more suited to your own requirements. Even though many of us will agree that bus drivers are not well paid, there is not a desperate shortage so the usual law of supply vs demand must be working.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I think the only obvious comment I can make is the one that you won't like.........

Nobody forces anybody to work as a bus driver. If you don't like the pay, hours, management, colleagues, vehicles - or any other conditions - then you leave and get a job more suited to your own requirements. Even though many of us will agree that bus drivers are not well paid, there is not a desperate shortage so the usual law of supply vs demand must be working.

Hmmm... so that makes 2 people on here that think I should accept low pay for doing a job I enjoy... or take a job I hate to earn more money....where have I said that I don't like any of the above? nowhere... I am discussing the issues involved from my own PERSONAL experience... I assume you think that nurses are paid well enough thank you very much and then complain when you have a 6 hour wait in A&E?

If you think that any fool can drive a bus why don't you try it for a couple of years before pontificating on whether bus drivers are paid a fair wage?

as to the law of supply and demand is working why has the bus industry had to constantly recruit from abroad since the 1960's? The industry has been desperately short of drivers since before WW2 in many areas...Could it be that they pay too low a wage? Unfortunately, like yourself, too many bus industry managers see drivers as a necessary evil rather than their greatest asset.

Is there any correlation between the slide in wages, terms and conditions since the 1980's and the slide in driving/ customer care standards over the same period?

put it another way... which company would be the most successful... the one paying £15/hr taking the pick of available drivers? or the one paying minimum wage and having to take whichever tom dick or harry applies? which one will have the higher customer satisfaction? which one in the long term will survive... as I have said before pay peanuts... get monkeys!

It gets tiresome for those of us PROFESSIONAL drivers to have to defend our status against prejudiced misinformed views of what we do day in day out.

 

[fowler9]

This is a very complicated subject. Fully qualified nurses earn more than fully qualified bus drivers but it is not a valid comparison. Fully qualified nurses need a degree.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

This is a very complicated subject. Fully qualified nurses earn more than fully qualified bus drivers but it is not a valid comparison. Fully qualified nurses need a degree.

so falling into that trap that a person with a degree is automatically more entitled to earn a good living than one without! To become a bus driver you have to pass your car test... you then have to have 2 years driving experience before even being allowed to TRAIN to drive a bus... you then have to pass another, more stringent test (when I passed My PCV the pass mark was perfection!)

And now I spend My working days ensuring that nurses don't get too much work by avoiding all the idiot motorists and suicidal pedestrians! whilst still expected to be pleasant to My passengers and not throw them about... all while keeping to the tightest of schedules!

so if nurses are aren't a good comparison how about footballers? Wayne Rooney earns 250k per week for kicking a bag of wind around a field... any fool can do that with some degree of competence.... is HE worth his money compared to bus drivers (or nurses come to that)?

you're right on one point... it is a complicated subject... but I come back to my original point... bus drivers are constantly told by management that they are PROFESSIONALS... therefore it is only right to compare pay and conditions to other PROFESSIONS... and by any mark or measure bus drivers are the lowest paid PROFESSIONALS in this country.

 

[notadriver]

Hmmm... so that makes 2 people on here that think I should accept low pay for doing a job I enjoy... or take a job I hate to earn more money....where have I said that I don't like any of the above? nowhere... I am discussing the issues involved from my own PERSONAL experience... I assume you think that nurses are paid well enough thank you very much and then complain when you have a 6 hour wait in A&E?



If you think that any fool can drive a bus why don't you try it for a couple of years before pontificating on whether bus drivers are paid a fair wage?



as to the law of supply and demand is working why has the bus industry had to constantly recruit from abroad since the 1960's? The industry has been desperately short of drivers since before WW2 in many areas...Could it be that they pay too low a wage? Unfortunately, like yourself, too many bus industry managers see drivers as a necessary evil rather than their greatest asset.



Is there any correlation between the slide in wages, terms and conditions since the 1980's and the slide in driving/ customer care standards over the same period?



put it another way... which company would be the most successful... the one paying £15/hr taking the pick of available drivers? or the one paying minimum wage and having to take whichever tom dick or harry applies? which one will have the higher customer satisfaction? which one in the long term will survive... as I have said before pay peanuts... get monkeys!



It gets tiresome for those of us PROFESSIONAL drivers to have to defend our status against prejudiced misinformed views of what we do day in day out.

I think part of the problem is whilst you are obviously very good at your job, obviously intelligent and well spoken there are a whole load of other bad drivers giving the industry a bad name. It could be the way the drive, it could be the way they speak to passengers, it could be the fact that they can't speak English at all. When I first started doing rail replacement the bus controller spoke to me like I was another one of those 'idiot drivers'. The assumption I was one of 'them' was instant.

 

[jon0844]

If you agree that shareholders should get a fair return on their investment, but you want drivers to be paid more, how do YOU suggest it's done ? Presumably you would put up fares ?

Putting up fares would be mad.

Out here in Hertfordshire I am now asked to pay £4.50 return on a bus for about 8 stops (10 minutes) from Hatfield to Welwyn Garden City. On the train, it's £1.70 return - albeit with a railcard. Even without the railcard it's significantly cheaper.

The Council is cutting subsidies so fares will likely continue to rise, but all that's going to happen is people stop using buses. Then more will be cut and then there will be fewer drivers.

A side effect of the cuts here is that there's now less overtime for drivers as the bus company hasn't got a shortage of drivers anymore.

 

[notadriver]

you're right on one point... it is a complicated subject... but I come back to my original point... bus drivers are constantly told by management that they are PROFESSIONALS... therefore it is only right to compare pay and conditions to other PROFESSIONS... and by any mark or measure bus drivers are the lowest paid PROFESSIONALS in this country.

NS-SEC (national statistics socio economic classification) gives the following job examples :



1 Higher managerial, administrative and professional occupations

1.1 Large employers and higher managers and administrative occupations (Chief Executive, Production Manager)

1.2 Higher professional occupations (Doctor, Barrister, Dentist)

2 Lower managerial, administrative and professional occupations (Nurse, Actor, Journalist)

3 Intermediate occupations (Fireman, Photographer, Airline Cabin Crew)

4 Small employers and own account workers (self employed: Builder, Hairdresser, Fisherman)

5 Lower supervisory, craft and related occupations (Train Driver, Plumber, Electrician)

6 Semi-routine occupations (Postman, Care Assistant, Shop Assistant)

7 Routine occupations (Bus Driver, Refuse Collector, Waitress)

8 Never worked and long-term unemployed

Unfortunately bus drivers are at the bottom of the list lumped in with refuse collectors and waitresses so probably not professional in the way a Doctor or Dentist is.

(Source : http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/uncat...re-socio-economic-status/sty-coding-tool.html)

 

[fowler9]

so falling into that trap that a person with a degree is automatically more entitled to earn a good living than one without! To become a bus driver you have to pass your car test... you then have to have 2 years driving experience before even being allowed to TRAIN to drive a bus... you then have to pass another, more stringent test (when I passed My PCV the pass mark was perfection!)

And now I spend My working days ensuring that nurses don't get too much work by avoiding all the idiot motorists and suicidal pedestrians! whilst still expected to be pleasant to My passengers and not throw them about... all while keeping to the tightest of schedules!

so if nurses are aren't a good comparison how about footballers? Wayne Rooney earns 250k per week for kicking a bag of wind around a field... any fool can do that with some degree of competence.... is HE worth his money compared to bus drivers (or nurses come to that)?

you're right on one point... it is a complicated subject... but I come back to my original point... bus drivers are constantly told by management that they are PROFESSIONALS... therefore it is only right to compare pay and conditions to other PROFESSIONS... and by any mark or measure bus drivers are the lowest paid PROFESSIONALS in this country.

I haven't fallen in to any trap. If you want bus driving to become a better paid job then expect the requirements to get that job to go up. They will also have to find some way to narrow down the field when it comes to applicants. By PROFESSIONALS what do you mean? Do you mean that no one else can drive or that anyone can do anyone elses job apart from yours. I bet you couldn't do mine!