Northern Rail Debt Recovery & Prosecutions Letter

[najaB]

But if you accept my interpretation that the passenger sought to exit the destination station without a ticket, then we have many parallel cases, including Reynolds v Beasley [1919] (convicted RoRA), Langdon v Howells [1879] (convicted RCCA) and actually, also our regular citation of Corbyn v Saunders [1977] (convicted RoRA).

In those cases, was the attempt detected by an officer of the train company? Can a barrier be said to be such an officer?

It does seem a bit harsh that had the OP not said that he had tried the ticket in the barrier and instead had simply asked for a renewal of his season ticket he would have been fine, but now finds himself potentially being prosecuted.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

In those cases, was the attempt detected by an officer of the train company? Can a barrier be said to be such an officer?

These three involved a living officer who was inspecting tickets, but I don't see what hangs on the distinction you are trying to draw here.

If it helps, there have been countless instances of detection by barriers and since the introduction of electronic ticketing (and I specifically include Oyster here), there is regular use of barriers as a primary means of detecting invalid tickets.

 

[najaB]

These three involved a living officer who was inspecting tickets, but I don't see what hangs on the distinction you are trying to draw here.

It's the fact that the staff member in the ticket office was unaware that the OP's ticket had been rejected at the barrier. If he had said "Can I renew my season ticket please?" and left it at that would he now be threatened with prosecution? Having said "My ticket didn't work in the barrier, can I renew it please?" he now faces prosecution.

I understand that the law is the law, but it does seem unfair.

 

[tony6499]

It's the fact that the staff member in the ticket office was unaware that the OP's ticket had been rejected at the barrier. If he had said "Can I renew my season ticket please?" and left it at that would he now be threatened with prosecution? Having said "My ticket didn't work in the barrier, can I renew it please?" he now faces prosecution.

I understand that the law is the law, but it does seem unfair.

Unless the ticket office staff saw the gateline reject the ticket and him return there hence him calling over an inspector. Or plain clothes inspectors were watching , could be many things we don't or even the OP doesn't know about this.

 

[najaB]

...could be many things we don't or even the OP doesn't know about this.

That is very true. Thanks for reminding me that there's three sides to every story.

 

[gray1404]

I am going to give my personal view here rather then give any advise.

I do take the point totally here and choose to side with the OP. They boarded the train at a station with no way of getting a ticket, and if the guard on the train had have come round, it is highly likely that, upon realising the season ticket had ran out, the guard would have sold another ticket (if they were able) or directed them to the ticket office on arrival. I seems very harsh that the OP could get into trouble given the circumstances. In my view, the moment it was establish which station the OP started their journey, they should have been offered the full range of tickets given it was their first chance to buy one on their journey.

Yes, we then have to consider they tried using the ticket barrier . It looks like this was an honest mistake though and there was never actually any intent to defraud the TOC of any money.

 

[34D]

It's the fact that the staff member in the ticket office was unaware that the OP's ticket had been rejected at the barrier. If he had said "Can I renew my season ticket please?" and left it at that would he now be threatened with prosecution? Having said "My ticket didn't work in the barrier, can I renew it please?" he now faces prosecution.

I understand that the law is the law, but it does seem unfair.

This is surely then a life lesson, to say as little as possible as we go about our daily business. Many people have been convicted because they said something silly

 

[bb21]

Equally inference can be made if you don't say something which you later rely on in court.

 

[Starmill]

Excess fares at Leeds would not be able to issue longer than a weekly season ticket.

 

[strowger]

Deleted

 

[Tetchytyke]

It would be "interesting" to be at a major railway terminus during normal business hours and yet refused access to the full range of tickets.

The Excess Fares staff tend to use Avantix machines, not ticket office machines, hence why the range of tickets is limited.

I'm sure they would sell you a single and allow you to part-exchange it at the Travel Centre around the corner.

As for everything else, I'd agree in feeling sorry for the OP; if he'd noticed the date ten seconds earlier, there'd have been no issue. But then Northern seem determined to go after the low-hanging fruit and rinsing them of £80, rather than dealing with the determined fare evaders who short fare or use concessionary tickets they're not entitled to.

 

[island]

In fairness, they do go after short-farers using the voucher system.

 

[Tetchytyke]

In fairness, they do go after short-farers using the voucher system.

That only works where someone is trying to short-fare at the destination "forgets" where they got on. If someone buys a ticket in advance for, say, Burley Park to Leeds, then the barrier will let them through. The same applies to people who buy child tickets, or buy WYPTE concessionary passes.

Perhaps Northern occasionally block the barriers for certain tickets, but the barrier staff tend to wave anybody with orange cardboard through anyway.