ATW Not interested in Soccer

[PHILIPE]

Rightly or wrongly, ATW do have a reputation in this area that does not extend to some other TOC's.

I have personally been told by ATW "It's not in the franchise requirement".
They will pull the stops out in the case of a Rugby International, to avoid scrums taking place on stations and trains (to convenience themselves) as well as on the pitch.
Going back to a comment I made earlier re ATW publicity, their attitude (seen on Twitter also) is refer to Journey Planner. This is an attitude of "We don't tell you, it's up to you to find out for yourself".

 

[Greenback]

ATW most certainly won't do anything that doesn't have some benefit for themselves. This is true, to an extent, of all companies, but I know from conversations I've had with senior managers that the ATW vision on expenditure is pretty strict.

I've also found a bit of a conflict between ATW's publicly stated customer service policy and what senior management actually think the policy is, or should be. Sadly, this is reflected in the company attitude towards people finding things out for themselves!

 

[Tetchytyke]

As opposed to every other TOC, who are of course all well known for splashing the cash on things when they have no contractual obligation to do so.

Virgin Trains East Coast manage to run additional trains when a Yorkshire or north east sporting team has a big fixture in London. Virgin Trains (west coast) are the same.

 

[Envoy]

Not very operationally practicable, I should, think turning back at Ninian Park. On this Sunday NO additional trains could have run from Cardiff Central to Ninian Park due to Engineering Work which closed platforms 3 and 4resulting in everything going west i/c Paddington to Swansea HSTs and terminating trains at Cardiff from the east all having to use Platform 7. Due to the need to reduce the number of trains, as an example, 10 20 Holyhead to Cardiff had to terminate Newport and run ECS to Canton later when path available and Ebbw Vales were diverted to Newport and on to Gloucester, the return trains doing the same thing in reverse. As for trains from Bristol extending Ninian Park, FGW crews don't know the route and trains from the east diverted would result in re-timings and loss of path. As another poster has already pointed out, Ninian Park is not large enough to accommodate passengers on such a scale.

But what about in the future - in the event that no engineering was taking place?

Why would it be such a big deal for FGW train drivers to be shown the route for the 1 mile from Central to Ninian Park? (The HST ones on the Swansea run certainly know the route as they sometimes get diverted at Leckwith Junction to run through Ninian Park).

You say that Ninian Park would not be able to cope with massive crowds. I can't see much difference in the capacity at Ninian Park v Grangetown. Presumably, most people already on the valley lines* would use Grangetown & then walk to the soccer stadium rather than change a Central. Therefore, Ninian Park would be mainly dealing with just the City Line & those people who arrive on the main line. The trouble is, that the 2 coach City line trains just cannot cope when a football match is taking place.

* Perhaps those coming down the Taff Valley could be advised to change at Radyr for Ninian Park rather than Central? I wonder if ATW staff tell them to do this as the main pressure seems to be between Central & Ninian Park.

 

[PHILIPE]

But what about in the future - in the event that no engineering was taking place?

Why would it be such a big deal for FGW train drivers to be shown the route for the 1 mile from Central to Ninian Park? (The HST ones on the Swansea run certainly know the route as they sometimes get diverted at Leckwith Junction to run through Ninian Park).

You say that Ninian Park would not be able to cope with massive crowds. I can't see much difference in the capacity at Ninian Park v Grangetown. Presumably, most people already on the valley lines* would use Grangetown & then walk to the soccer stadium rather than change a Central. Therefore, Ninian Park would be mainly dealing with just the City Line & those people who arrive on the main line. The trouble is, that the 2 coach City line trains just cannot cope when a football match is taking place.

* Perhaps those coming down the Taff Valley could be advised to change at Radyr for Ninian Park rather than Central? I wonder if ATW staff tell them to do this as the main pressure seems to be between Central & Ninian Park.

If a train were to go to Ninian Park it would probably have to go to Radyr to cross over to come back with pathing difficulties there. Trains such as FGW ones have return working to do and some of the drivers take their PNB. Even if they were to learn the road, as I said earlier, FGW have NO Track Access Rights to call at Ninian Park. Trains from the West would have to cross the throat to reach Central station which again presents pathing difficulties. Remember Valley trains on a weekday are running every 5 minutes so how are you going to fit additional is. I respect your suggestions but there is only so much that can be achieved operationally especially in view of the fact that moves were made a few years ago to thin out moves at Cardiff West. Also, changing from the Taff at Radyr would overburden the Radyr Coryton especially those worked by a 153. Most people go to Central and walk anyway.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Rightly or wrongly, ATW do have a reputation in this area that does not extend to some other TOC's.

Indeed. Just have a look at the pathetic service level on the valley lines on a Sunday too.

Which of course wasn't changed for the game either. So those for some valley destinations had a 2 hour wait after the game. Guess what most of them did? Got drunk! Which I am sure customer facing staff working the evening services absolutely loved! There was the same situation too a few years back when Cardiff played Swansea. The game was a Sunday morning to try to stop people spending all day in the pub, but because of the timetable it meant that many valleys based fans had around 2 hours to kill between arriving in Cardiff and needing to make their way to the stadium, so again guess what many did?

 

[PHILIPE]

Indeed. Just have a look at the pathetic service level on the valley lines on a Sunday too.

Strictly complying with the Franchise. There have been many improvemnts to many aspects of ATW over recent years which may not have happened in England. The Welsh Assembly Government has funded them, though.

 

[Envoy]

If a train were to go to Ninian Park it would probably have to go to Radyr to cross over to come back with pathing difficulties there. Trains such as FGW ones have return working to do and some of the drivers take their PNB. Even if they were to learn the road, as I said earlier, FGW have NO Track Access Rights to call at Ninian Park. Trains from the West would have to cross the throat to reach Central station which again presents pathing difficulties. Remember Valley trains on a weekday are running every 5 minutes so how are you going to fit additional is. I respect your suggestions but there is only so much that can be achieved operationally especially in view of the fact that moves were made a few years ago to thin out moves at Cardiff West. Also, changing from the Taff at Radyr would overburden the Radyr Coryton especially those worked by a 153. Most people go to Central and walk anyway.

Thank you Philipe for your response.

 

[bitmadmax]

19 40 Cardiff to Shrewsbury extended Chester and additional trains run to Merthyr, Aberdare, Rhymney, Ebbw Vale, Gloucester and Hereford !!! I don't know what the loadings were like though.

Did they send one of their utterly pointless 2 car 170's ?

 

[Michael.Y]

Did they send one of their utterly pointless 2 car 170's ?

ATW don't run 170s.

This discussion could all have been rendered moot if UEFA hadn't insisted on running the match for television audiences at 5pm on a Sunday. 4pm would have been preferable, or even, you know, 3pm on a Saturday!

As it happens, given the result a large number of fans headed into Cardiff City centre (myself among them) to watch, support and be disappointed by Cyprus in the 7:45 kickoff.

ATW ran several extra trains after the Belgium game a few months back, again a wonderful piece of scheduling mastery - Friday night at 7:45pm.

Also, saying ATW don't care about soccer when they've liased with Chiltern to provide direct services to Wembley for Wrexham fans in the past is slightly unfair. I've also in the past caught LHS to games like Wales v England and Wales v Northern Ireland.

Imagine trying to be an ATW resources manager phoning up all the 67/DVT-signed drivers and 67/DVT-signed guards begging them to work a Sunday late overtime!

 

[craigybagel]

ATW don't run 170s.

This discussion could all have been rendered moot if UEFA hadn't insisted on running the match for television audiences at 5pm on a Sunday. 4pm would have been preferable, or even, you know, 3pm on a Saturday!

As it happens, given the result a large number of fans headed into Cardiff City centre (myself among them) to watch, support and be disappointed by Cyprus in the 7:45 kickoff.

ATW ran several extra trains after the Belgium game a few months back, again a wonderful piece of scheduling mastery - Friday night at 7:45pm.

Also, saying ATW don't care about soccer when they've liased with Chiltern to provide direct services to Wembley for Wrexham fans in the past is slightly unfair. I've also in the past caught LHS to games like Wales v England and Wales v Northern Ireland.

Imagine trying to be an ATW resources manager phoning up all the 67/DVT-signed drivers and 67/DVT-signed guards begging them to work a Sunday late overtime!

Thank you.

Did they send one of their utterly pointless 2 car 170's ?

Assuming you mean 175 since ATW don't have any 170s, I'll bear your remarks in mind next time I'm due to work a 2 car. Since they're utterly pointless then by definition we might as well not run the service, so I'll just stay at home instead.

Bear in mind that a 2 car 175 will still seat over a hundred passengers, which is more than enough for the vast majority of services which they are booked. Of course, running 3 cars on all services would be great, but there's no growth franchises for you.

Virgin Trains East Coast manage to run additional trains when a Yorkshire or north east sporting team has a big fixture in London. Virgin Trains (west coast) are the same.

As do ATW.

ATW most certainly won't do anything that doesn't have some benefit for themselves. This is true, to an extent, of all companies, but I know from conversations I've had with senior managers that the ATW vision on expenditure is pretty strict.

/QUOTE]

Whilst I'm not going to disagree with you (believe me, I'm well aware that ATW are careful how they spend their money), have you for comparison purposes spoken to the senior managers at other TOC's?

Strictly complying with the Franchise. There have been many improvemnts to many aspects of ATW over recent years which may not have happened in England. The Welsh Assembly Government has funded them, though.

It will be interesting to see what the WAG specify for the next franchise, and whether the anomalies like the Valleys Sunday service gets rectified.

 

[PHILIPE]

Re the Sunday Valley services, each location at the head of a Valley has a two hourly service, but when you compare 2 similar towns like Caerphilly and Pontypridd, the latter has 3 trains every 2 hours because of three routes converging there (or north of) i.e. from Treherbert, Aberdare and Merthyr. Caerphilly, on the other hand, is on a single (Rhymney) has only 1 train per 3 2 hours.
Another farce is New Years Day on the Cardiff Valleys. Historically, services did not run New Years Day but times and habits have changed since those days which saw that lack of service just carried though franchise to franchise. A re-opened route, Ebbw Vale, comes on line and running just over the mountain, as it were, from the Rhymney line and has a service specified to run on New Years Day. The "stupid" side of franchising.

 

[Phil from Mon]

ATW most certainly won't do anything that doesn't have some benefit for themselves. This is true, to an extent, of all companies, but I know from conversations I've had with senior managers that the ATW vision on expenditure is pretty strict.

I've also found a bit of a conflict between ATW's publicly stated customer service policy and what senior management actually think the policy is, or should be. Sadly, this is reflected in the company attitude towards people finding things out for themselves!

As I found out again at Chester yesterday. 2 car 158 in Platform 2 advertised for Holyhead, everyone settled themselves, luggage and kids in their seats and then told 5 minutes later that those 2 cars were only going to Llandudno Jct, if we wanted Bangor or Holyhead we needed the front 2 which had not arrived yet. A simple announcement, and even a chalk board on the platform if the screens can't do it yet, would make all the difference. Maybe we should petition WG to buy some blackboards.

 

[Class377]

It could, but if they'd lost during the week it might not have been.

The match had been sold out since June, and had passed the 30,000 sales mark in May. I doubt that half of the ticket holders would have abandoned their plans just on the basis of one result three days before the match!

(For what it's worth, the Belgium game three months ago sold out as well, and the Friday night game last October, which had much less at stake at the time, was also over 30,000, so it wouldn't take a genius to have predicted this would also be a massive crowd)

 

[Hornet]

Can't remember this amount of angst when the Millenium held RWC matches in 2007. I went to see Wales v Aus and the France v NZ Q/F in Cardiff. Got Trains OK and didn't have to pay mad prices for Travel Tickets.

 

[Greenback]

craigybagel, one of the differences between ATW and the other TOC's is that ATW have a government near their head office that they know will pay them for doing things. So it's easier for them just to sit on their hands and say 'There's nothing in it for us, you'll have to pay up' and the WG usually does. Even if there is actually something in it for ATW.

 

[northwichcat]

craigybagel, one of the differences between ATW and the other TOC's is that ATW have a government near their head office that they know will pay them for doing things. So it's easier for them just to sit on their hands and say 'There's nothing in it for us, you'll have to pay up' and the WG usually does. Even if there is actually something in it for ATW.

I don't know the exact position of ATW but both Northern and LM are subsided franchises who can get money via PTEs for doing more than they are required to do by their respective franchise agreements.

I'm not entirely sure why PTEs can pass money on to Northern and LM for strengthening but not other operators who serve PTE areas.

I'm guessing it would be easier for ATW to get money from the Welsh government than it would be for other operators who run services in to Wales.

 

[Greenback]

I think you;re guess is correct! A further difference is that PTE's only cover certain parts of the other franchises that you mention, although I accept that these are pretty significant areas. In Wales, the WG controls everything, which as we all know creates issues for those who are ATW routes in England, who don't feel that they are equal stakeholders!

 

[northwichcat]

I think you;re guess is correct! A further difference is that PTE's only cover certain parts of the other franchises that you mention, although I accept that these are pretty significant areas. In Wales, the WG controls everything, which as we all know creates issues for those who are ATW routes in England, who don't feel that they are equal stakeholders!

I think it'll be interesting when the new Northern Regional Express service starts between Chester and Leeds via Victoria and Bradford as ATW will have direct competition and might have to start doing things like offering ATW only tickets if they want to try to keep the lion's share of revenue for those flows.

 

[bb21]

Indeed. Just have a look at the pathetic service level on the valley lines on a Sunday too.

Which of course wasn't changed for the game either. So those for some valley destinations had a 2 hour wait after the game. Guess what most of them did? Got drunk! Which I am sure customer facing staff working the evening services absolutely loved! There was the same situation too a few years back when Cardiff played Swansea. The game was a Sunday morning to try to stop people spending all day in the pub, but because of the timetable it meant that many valleys based fans had around 2 hours to kill between arriving in Cardiff and needing to make their way to the stadium, so again guess what many did?

Are you saying that they wouldn't get drunk otherwise?

 

[craigybagel]

craigybagel, one of the differences between ATW and the other TOC's is that ATW have a government near their head office that they know will pay them for doing things. So it's easier for them just to sit on their hands and say 'There's nothing in it for us, you'll have to pay up' and the WG usually does. Even if there is actually something in it for ATW.

I still don't see how this is much different than every other TOC. Companies don't tend to spend more than their contractually obliged to do. If someone wants them to do more than what they have been paid for, they'll want extra money for it. That seems reasonable to me!

 

[reb0118]

What's soccer ? is it similar to football.

Yes, it is pretty much the same game. It is what posh public school laddies & Americans call football - it is derived from Asociation Football as opposed to Rugby Football aka Rugger.

 

[Michael.Y]

Yes, it is pretty much the same game. It is what posh public school laddies & Americans call football - it is derived from Asociation Football as opposed to Rugby Football aka Rugger.

Actually, it's called soccer a lot in Wales too for some reason. Especially by this bloke.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXoBNFOxlQM

 

[Class 170101]

It is possible to reverse at Ninian Park - I have been on a train that has done so.

 

[Greenback]

I still don't see how this is much different than every other TOC. Companies don't tend to spend more than their contractually obliged to do. If someone wants them to do more than what they have been paid for, they'll want extra money for it. That seems reasonable to me!

The relationship with the WG is different to what other TOC's have. They aren't a national network in the sense that ATW is for Wales.

You are entitled to disagree, of course!

 

[PHILIPE]

It is possible to reverse at Ninian Park - I have been on a train that has done so.

Ah, but did you reverse for a diversion via the curve to Grangetown. Something different.

 

[Minilad]

Yes, it is pretty much the same game. It is what posh public school laddies & Americans call football - it is derived from Asociation Football as opposed to Rugby Football aka Rugger.

I love it when people get all snotty about the use of the word soccer instead of football. Usually blaming Americans for it when in fact it was the English that used the word first to differentiate between football and rugby

 

[455driver]

How many spare drivers and guards do ATW have sat around doing nothing on a Sunday?
How many who are day off would be willing to give 4 or 5 weeks notice that they would be willing to work this extra Sunday if needed?
How many would be willing to work an extra Sunday at a few days notice?

Its all well and good saying ATW should have informed people about which extra trains would be running but until they know how many staff they have they cant sort out what they can run!

 

[craigybagel]

The relationship with the WG is different to what other TOC's have. They aren't a national network in the sense that ATW is for Wales.

You are entitled to disagree, of course!

On no, I do agree entirely with you on that one! With the possible exception of Scotrail and Merseyrail, the relationship between ATW and the WAG is pretty unique on the railway.

My point is merely that very few businesses, on the railway or otherwise, are prepared to spend more than they are contractually obliged to, and if the people who they are working for (in this case the WAG) want them to do more than was originally agreed, it seems reasonable to expect some additional funding to change hands in return.

How many spare drivers and guards do ATW have sat around doing nothing on a Sunday?
How many who are day off would be willing to give 4 or 5 weeks notice that they would be willing to work this extra Sunday if needed?
How many would be willing to work an extra Sunday at a few days notice?

I know your question was rhetorical but I can't resist - the answer to your first question is effectively zero, as there are no rostered spare staff on a Sunday (except under certain very rare circumstances). With regards to how many staff want to work additional Sundays, it does vary from depot to depot and time of year, but I suspect that at every TOC you'd struggle to find many people willing to come in on a day off to work a football train

 

[bitmadmax]

Someone needs to tell these train companies that everything stops for football.