Northern Rail Debt Recovery & Prosecutions Letter

[Slartibartfast]

I have received a letter from the NR Debt Recovery and Prosecutions Unit in relation to an incident last month.

I made my regular morning commute from Pontefract to Leeds and when I couldn't exit the barrier realised that my season ticket had expired. By way of explainantion, I had spent the previous week travelling by car rather than train, and hadn't looked at the date on the ticket. There was no inspection that morning and so it wasn't picked up earlier.

As soon as I realised the problem, I went to the nearby ticket office and explained what had happened. I was told I couldn't renew my railcard (or buy a ticket to cover the journey made), and then directed to another member of NR staff who took my details, asked me a few questions about my journey and then escorted me to the main ticket office where I renewed my season ticket.

I thoroughly expect to end up with a fine, even though this seems a bit harsh because there was no deliberate attempt to evade payment. However, any advice would be very welcome.

 

[island]

What does the letter say?

How long was your season ticket expired for?

The usual outcome in this sort of situation is that you would be issued with an administrative penalty of £83.40 but depending on a number of factors such as your conduct towards railway staff and any previous history you may have you could be looking at anything from being let off with a warning up to criminal prosecution as it is a strict liability offence to enter a train for the purpose of travel without having a valid ticket with you.

 

[najaB]

I made my regular morning commute from Pontefract to Leeds and when I couldn't exit the barrier realised that my season ticket had expired. By way of explainantion, I had spent the previous week travelling by car rather than train, and hadn't looked at the date on the ticket. There was no inspection that morning and so it wasn't picked up earlier.

What length of season ticket and how out of date was it?

 

[Slartibartfast]

What does the letter say?

How long was your season ticket expired for?

The usual outcome in this sort of situation is that you would be issued with an administrative penalty of £83.40 but depending on a number of factors such as your conduct towards railway staff and any previous history you may have you could be looking at anything from being let off with a warning up to criminal prosecution as it is a strict liability offence to enter a train for the purpose of travel without having a valid ticket with you.

The meat of the letter says:

"On Wednesday 5th August 2015 you were spoken to by an authorised member of staff in relation to an alleged contravention of the Railway Regulations. An evidential report has been submitted to this office regarding this incident. Before the company proceeds further with its investigations, we would like to give you an opportunity of responding with your explanation concerning it."

It was a monthly ticket and was probably expired by two or three days. Annoyingly I don't seem to have kept the old one, but at the time I wasn't thinking of the implications of any of this.

I have no previous history, and I was polite if rather exasperated with both members of staff.

 

[najaB]

It was a monthly ticket and was probably expired by two or three days. Annoyingly I don't seem to have kept the old one, but at the time I wasn't thinking of the implications of any of this.

If it's monthly then there should be a record of your purchase history. Will that history show any other gaps?

 

[Slartibartfast]

If it's monthly then there should be a record of your purchase history. Will that history show any other gaps?

It will do, but I doubt the fact that these are where renewal falls over a weekend or a holiday will cut any ice.

I only use it for work between Monday and Friday, so if renewal falls over a weekend or other period of absence, I normally buy a single (it's only £3.40 first thing) on my first day back and then renew at Leeds. This is what I would have done on the day in question if I'd looked at my ticket.

I suspect this will be a lesson in observation learned the hard way.

 

[SephenWorceste]

How could the poster have renewed their season ticket? There is no ticket office or machine at Pontefract. Last time I travelled from Pontefract to Leeds I had to purchase my ticket at Leeds as the guard only made it down half a carriage during the journey. I suppose I had not attempted to exit the station first.

 

[Slartibartfast]

How could the poster have renewed their season ticket? There is no ticket office or machine at Pontefract. Last time I travelled from Pontefract to Leeds I had to purchase my ticket at Leeds as the guard only made it down half a carriage during the journey. I suppose I had not attempted to exit the station first.

Your're correct; all three Pontefract stations are unmanned. However, as I stated above I normally realise it's expired and buy a single for the outward journey and then renew when I get to Leeds.

 

[najaB]

It will do, but I doubt the fact that these are where renewal falls over a weekend or a holiday will cut any ice.

I only use it for work between Monday and Friday, so if renewal falls over a weekend or other period of absence, I normally buy a single (it's only £3.40 first thing) on my first day back and then renew at Leeds. This is what I would have done on the day in question if I'd looked at my ticket.

I suspect this will be a lesson in observation learned the hard way.

The fact that the gaps fall at weekends is reasonable - it would be gaps of several days that would be more troubling. If I were in your position, I would write to Northern explaining exactly what you said here along with your evidence that you regularly purchase a monthly season ticket, apologising for your mistake and offering to pay any costs they have incurred.

They may well be inclined to resolve the matter without involving the courts.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How could the poster have renewed their season ticket? There is no ticket office or machine at Pontefract.

Ticket machine doesn't matter - a monthly can only be done at an office (as far as I know).

 

[DaleCooper]

How could the poster have renewed their season ticket? There is no ticket office or machine at Pontefract. Last time I travelled from Pontefract to Leeds I had to purchase my ticket at Leeds as the guard only made it down half a carriage during the journey. I suppose I had not attempted to exit the station first.

This is rather important, is it not? The OP should have been allowed to buy a ticket at the very least.

 

[34D]

This is rather important, is it not? The OP should have been allowed to buy a ticket at the very least.

Yes. But they are placing a lot of emphasis on the fact that she tried to put an expired ticket into the barrier.

 

[Slartibartfast]

The fact that the gaps fall at weekends is reasonable - it would be gaps of several days that would be more troubling.

I'm a tight Yorkshireman so for instance I often won't renew on a Friday if it expires over the weekend, but will get a single on Monday morning and renew on arrival for a month starting that day. Probably a false economy I know.

This month for instance it expired on the 5th, but I'm away from home for a fortnight starting on the 11th so rather than pay for a month that I'll only use half of I bought a weekly, and will buy a new monthly when I get back. All very reasonable to me, but very open to 'interpretation' by NR.

Yes. But they are placing a lot of emphasis on the fact that she tried to put an expired ticket into the barrier.

The only emphasis is that it was the first point on my journey that I realised I had a problem. (And I'm a he )

Thank you all for the advice. I have sent my account to NR and will have to await their response. I'll post an update once I hear from them.

 

[DaleCooper]

Yes. But they are placing a lot of emphasis on the fact that she tried to put an expired ticket into the barrier.

Who is emphasising that? It has been mentioned once by the OP that they told the person in the ticket office but we don't know whether the RPI who took the details was aware of it.

 

[island]

It seems to me (and this for the avoidance of all doubt is a personal and non-legal opinion) that the OP has not committed any offence. Having joined at a station with no ticketing facilities, no offence under Railway Byelaw 18 can arise, and as the fare was paid at the first opportunity and no intent to avoid the fare seems to be present, the section 5 Regulation of Railways Act offence would not be made out.

I don't often say this, but I would recommend fighting any case and not making any offer of settlement in the matter.

I do hope the OP will update is as to the outcome.

 

[DaleCooper]

and no intent to avoid the fare seems to be present, the section 5 Regulation of Railways Act offence would not be made out.

Unless the attempt to exit the barriers and that the OP only tried to by a ticket when that didn't work has been recorded which could be seen as avoidance.

 

[ainsworth74]

I broadly agree with island and (with the same warning that this is a personal non-legal opinion) I do not see how an offence has been committed here and would fight it.

 

[najaB]

I don't often say this, but I would recommend fighting any case and not making any offer of settlement in the matter.

I'm a little more cautious and would suggest a dual track approach - state the reasons why you think that no offence has occurred, but offer to pay any fare outstanding and *reasonable* costs.

 

[island]

I don't think there's a fare outstanding, though, as the OP bought a season ticket at Leeds which was his first opportunity to buy.

 

[reb0118]

A couple of side issues:-

I only use it for work between Monday and Friday, so if renewal falls over a weekend or other period of absence, I normally buy a single (it's only £3.40 first thing) on my first day back and then renew at Leeds.

Do you hand your single in for a "part exchange" towards the value of your season? We, as guards, used to be able to issue dedicated part exchange tickets but now they are simply issued as singles.

...this month for instance it expired on the 5th, but I'm away from home for a fortnight starting on the 11th so rather than pay for a month that I'll only use half of I bought a weekly, and will buy a new monthly when I get back. All very reasonable to me, but very open to 'interpretation' by NR.

Remember you can buy a season for any length from one month to one year so in the example above you could have asked for the season to expire on the 10th/11th as appropriate. i.e. a five weekly sort of......

Renewals: You can also renew your monthly in advance to start on the following Monday (?Tuesday following a Bank Hol?) any time after 12:00 the previous Friday.

I realize that these are side issues to your predicament but as ....

... a tight Yorkshireman...

...these might save you time and, more importantly, money in the future.

Cheers.

 

[Greenback]

Good advice, reb, and I was about to say something similar about part exchanging the single when buying the season ticket, and about renewing ahead of time.

 

[najaB]

I don't think there's a fare outstanding, though, as the OP bought a season ticket at Leeds which was his first opportunity to buy.

That is true - I wasn't thinking it through there.

 

[Slartibartfast]

Thanks again for the information. It had never occurred to me that it might be possible to 'part exchange' a ticket when buying a season so I'll look into this in more detail. And I know I can renew to start on a date to suit me, but my Yorkshire genes make me prefer to have the money in my pocket until I have to hand it over.

I'll update when I get a response and consider what track to take then.

What annoys me about all of this is that I offered to pay the outstanding fare there and then, but was not offered the opportunity to do so. My name and details were taken, and this is the outcome. I understand the rules (better now than I did before), but this was a genuine mistake on my part which I brought to NR's attention as soon as I realised what had happened.

 

[najaB]

I understand the rules (better now than I did before), but this was a genuine mistake on my part which I brought to NR's attention as soon as I realised what had happened.

As has been said above, it isn't clear what rule you have broken. Since there is no ticket office at Pontefract you were well within your rights to purchase at Leeds.

 

[Haywain]

As has been said above, it isn't clear what rule you have broken. Since there is no ticket office at Pontefract you were well within your rights to purchase at Leeds.

But not within your rights to first attempt to exit the station (via ticket barriers) with an expired ticket. It appears to me that if an offence has been committed, that is it. I don't believe that buying a season ticket after having been discovered attempting to use an expired ticket removes the offence.

 

[najaB]

But not within your rights to first attempt to exit the station (via ticket barriers) with an expired ticket. It appears to me that if an offence has been committed, that is it. I don't believe that buying a season ticket after having been discovered attempting to use an expired ticket removes the offence.

I agree that it was irregular, but it's not a Byelaw 18 offence and it would be a harsh prosecutor who attempted to make a RoRA offence stick. Byelaw 9.2 maybe?

 

[Clip]

I agree that it was irregular, but it's not a Byelaw 18 offence and it would be a harsh prosecutor who attempted to make a RoRA offence stick. Byelaw 9.2 maybe?

Well they could say the intent was there for sure because they only allegedly checked their ticket when rejected. I doubt it would stick but you never know.

 

[ainsworth74]

I wonder if one of our members with more knowledge of railway case law could comment? Surely at some point in the long history of railways and automatic ticket barriers something like this must have happened?

 

[34D]

Thanks again for the information. It had never occurred to me that it might be possible to 'part exchange' a ticket when buying a season so I'll look into this in more detail.

Easy options for a Monday morning:

Either
-buy a single to Leeds on the train, exit the barriers, then go to the ticket office to exchange your single ticket for the monthly/5 Weekly you need
or
-if the guard doesn't come round, go to the excess fares counter near platform 2 to buy you monthly there, before going to the barrier line.

 

[Slartibartfast]

Easy options for a Monday morning:

Either
-buy a single to Leeds on the train, exit the barriers, then go to the ticket office to exchange your single ticket for the monthly/5 Weekly you need
or
-if the guard doesn't come round, go to the excess fares counter near platform 2 to buy you monthly there, before going to the barrier line.

Which is exactly what I did in this case except that I made (what I now know to be) the mistake of telling him I'd tried the barrier first. The chap at the window told me he couldn't sell me one and directed me to his colleague who booked me.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

As has been said above, it isn't clear what rule you have broken. Since there is no ticket office at Pontefract you were well within your rights to purchase at Leeds.

But not within your rights to first attempt to exit the station (via ticket barriers) with an expired ticket. It appears to me that if an offence has been committed, that is it. I don't believe that buying a season ticket after having been discovered attempting to use an expired ticket removes the offence.

In my interpretation of the facts presented here, the expired season ticket is of absolutely no assistance in authorising travel and we must read the facts as implying that the passenger moved to exit the station without holding a ticket.
When we do introduce the fact of the expired ticket then it is in the process of passing it off as if it were valid where it is evidentially not, and which process if successful would lead to passage on the railway with no further fare paid but where one is due. That carries all the ingedients of an intention to avoid the payment of the fare. It follows from this that where the process is not successful, then the intention has been detected, and that is what has happened to Slartibartfast.
On a more pragmatic level, I agree that it is less than probable that the Company would seek to prosecute in this situation, though much depends on exactly what evidence is available from the Inspector's notebook.

I wonder if one of our members with more knowledge of railway case law could comment? Surely at some point in the long history of railways and automatic ticket barriers something like this must have happened?

I had a similar thought, and have had a quick look without much success (though there may be something relevant under any of the earlier versions of Railway Byelaws such as Huffam v North Staffordshire Railway Co [1894] in which the passenger travelled with a ticket which had expired 2 weeks previously - the Court found that the use of a ticket on a day for which it is not avilable is an offence under S.5(3) of the RoRA)).

But if you accept my interpretation that the passenger sought to exit the destination station without a ticket, then we have many parallel cases, including Reynolds v Beasley [1919] (convicted RoRA), Langdon v Howells [1879] (convicted RCCA) and actually, also our regular citation of Corbyn v Saunders [1977] (convicted RoRA).