GWR Class 800

[HSTEd]

That wouldn't be very efficient and the overhead line equipment may not sustain a pair class 91s drawing that kind of current.

Two 91s wouldn't draw much more current than the White Rose set did - and that thing worked relatively well.
It would probably be more efficient than using shortened single locomotive sets though..... wouldn't have to lug DVTs if nothing else.

 

[jopsuk]

weren't there tests, for proving the 800s would be OK, using two 91s? They certainly had both pans up, as that was the whole point.

 

[MCR247]

Two 91s wouldn't draw much more current than the White Rose set did - and that thing worked relatively well.
It would probably be more efficient than using shortened single locomotive sets though..... wouldn't have to lug DVTs if nothing else.

Didn't 373s need to be the only train between Kings Cross and Finsbury Park taking power though when departing KX?

 

[Dave1987]

What would make it look more like a "factory" in your view? It'll have overhead cranes. a warehouse with tracks and staging is what a final assembly line is. Conceptually no different to eg the Airbus assembly plant in Toulouse, or Boeing's 737 plant. I suppose one key difference with a rail one is that more of the staging can be fixed in location.

If you have ever watched any documentarys about the Boeing plant you will know they have a vast array of workshops and highly skilled engineers actually building the aircraft. The Newtow Aycliffe plant is no such thing. As you said it's an assembly plant. Hitatchi have played a blinder here, and got the government the give them a grant to assist in paying for it. What makes me laugh even more is this PR rubbish about "highly skilled jobs", really?

 

[Haydn1971]

If you have ever watched any documentarys about the Boeing plant you will know they have a vast array of workshops and highly skilled engineers actually building the aircraft.

Funny that, the firm my wife works for makes many of the o-rings for Airbus and Boeing, also for many military and nuclear applications worldwide, the firm my friend works for makes engine blocks for Cummins and ships directly all over the planet, his cousin runs a factory that makes the turbine blades for Rolls Royce Trent 900 engines, another guy I know makes specialised aircraft parts for Boeing and Airbus, plus some bits for Rally/F1.... All in and around Sheffield. The days of making a final product like an aircraft or even something less complex like a train in a single factory are well gone, the skilled jobs are distributed far and wide - I've colleagues who work in Durham, the vibes from them is that Hitachi has been a huge boost to the local economy in jobs of all grades.

 

[Alfie1014]

Indeed train 'manufacturing' these days, especially so multiple units, is all about assembly, the elements are sourced world wide, though there is always pressure to procure as much locally. The days of metal bashing are long over.

 

[jon0844]

Surely Bombardier must have a huge facility at Derby? One part for all the new trains being assembled, and the other to fix the previously assembled ones sent back...

 

[jimm]

If you have ever watched any documentarys about the Boeing plant you will know they have a vast array of workshops and highly skilled engineers actually building the aircraft. The Newtow Aycliffe plant is no such thing. As you said it's an assembly plant. Hitatchi have played a blinder here, and got the government the give them a grant to assist in paying for it. What makes me laugh even more is this PR rubbish about "highly skilled jobs", really?

Here is how a Boeing 737 is put together:

However not all of the 737 is built at Renton. For example, since 1983 the fuselage including nose and tailcone has been built at Wichita and brought to Renton by train. Also much of the sub-assembly work is outsourced beyond Boeing.

http://www.b737.org.uk/production.htm

Which sounds an awful lot like what Bombardier/ABB/etc has been doing at Derby for years and if the staff at Derby and Newton Aycliffe are as unskilled as you seem to believe - have you even bothered to find out? I doubt it - why is it that whenever there were redundancies at Derby, JCB was always keen to snap them up for its excavator factories in East Staffordshire?

Hitachi got a grant? Shocking. Do you think Boeing is some kind of self-supporting paragon?

In late 2013, Washington state made history.

On a mid-November Monday, Washington Gov. Jay Inslee (D) signed into law the largest corporate tax break in any state’s history, with an estimated lifetime value of $8.7 billion. The package was the result of a special three-day session Inslee called in order to entice Boeing to build its 777X plane in the state. Boeing didn’t just score big that day. The aerospace giant has received more state and local subsidy dollars than any other corporation in America, according to newly released data compiled by Good Jobs First, a policy resource center on subsidy data.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...-the-biggest-corporate-winners-in-each-state/

 

[Dave1987]

I'm well aware of how Airbus and Boeing aircraft building processes work, but at their respective factories there are still a large amount of highly skilled engineers working on building the aircraft and all the hugely complex systems on board. What really gets me it the way the PM talks about this new plant at Newtow Aycliffe bringing hundreds of highly skilled jobs to the north east which is very disingenuous. I have seen various reports stating one of the big reasons that Hitatchi got this order was because they said they would build this assembly plant in the North East and that would be a huge PR scoop for the MPs about bringing jobs to the North East blah blah blah. And no doubt the politicians will want to keep the plant full with orders in the vain hope that Hitatchi will convert it into a full fabrication facility.

 

[asylumxl]

Your dislike of the Hitachi facility couldn't possibly be due to your dislike of the IEP and love of certain older intercity trains, could it?

 

[Haydn1971]

What really gets me it the way the PM talks about this new plant at Newtow Aycliffe bringing hundreds of highly skilled jobs to the north east which is very disingenuous.

Depends on your definition of highly skilled - you can have a highly skilled fitter whom is superb at their craft, conversely you can have a highly skilled technology expert who couldn't unscrew a bolt if they tried. Fact is that a the Hitachi facility is an assembly point for components made across the world. The reality is that the design, development and manufacturing processes are not necessarily focused on County Durham, but skilled jobs have been brought to the area which is always going to be a good thing. Get over it !
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm well aware of how Airbus and Boeing aircraft building processes work, but at their respective factories there are still a large amount of highly skilled engineers working on building the aircraft and all the hugely complex systems on board.

Clearly you don't, myself and others have explained that these large corporations simply pull together designs and fabrications from 100's of smaller companies. Boeing and Airbus are very successful at doing this, why should Hitachi be any different ! The local highly skilled jobs aren't necessarily at Hitachi, but due to Hitachi choosing to assemble a kit of parts from all over the world with an amount of local content that has been made by smaller local firms by a skilled workforce not directly employed by Hitachi.

 

[class26]

Depends on your definition of highly skilled - you can have a highly skilled fitter whom is superb at their craft, conversely you can have a highly skilled technology expert who couldn't unscrew a bolt if they tried. Fact is that a the Hitachi facility is an assembly point for components made across the world. The reality is that the design, development and manufacturing processes are not necessarily focused on County Durham, but skilled jobs have been brought to the area which is always going to be a good thing. Get over it !
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---



Clearly you don't, myself and others have explained that these large corporations simply pull together designs and fabrications from 100's of smaller companies. Boeing and Airbus are very successful at doing this, why should Hitachi be any different ! The local highly skilled jobs aren't necessarily at Hitachi, but due to Hitachi choosing to assemble a kit of parts from all over the world with an amount of local content that has been made by smaller local firms by a skilled workforce not directly employed by Hitachi.

......and if all goes well Hitachi could in the future move some research here and expend the factory. Hopefully the present factory is just a start with more to come !

 

[jimm]

I'm well aware of how Airbus and Boeing aircraft building processes work, but at their respective factories there are still a large amount of highly skilled engineers working on building the aircraft and all the hugely complex systems on board. What really gets me it the way the PM talks about this new plant at Newtow Aycliffe bringing hundreds of highly skilled jobs to the north east which is very disingenuous. I have seen various reports stating one of the big reasons that Hitatchi got this order was because they said they would build this assembly plant in the North East and that would be a huge PR scoop for the MPs about bringing jobs to the North East blah blah blah. And no doubt the politicians will want to keep the plant full with orders in the vain hope that Hitatchi will convert it into a full fabrication facility.

Blah, blah, blah, just about sums up your posts about IEP/AT300, Hitachi and anything remotely to do with them. What would you rather happen? They all get put together in a factory in Japan, surrounded by highly skilled engineers...? Never mind all the components that are being produced in the UK, though I doubt whether the factories providing those will pass your 'skills' test either.

......and if all goes well Hitachi could in the future move some research here and expend the factory. Hopefully the present factory is just a start with more to come !

Such as their European design office...

RAIL’s glimpse behind the scenes of the enormous facility, which Hitachi says can be expanded even further if necessary, took place on the same day that Hitachi Rail Europe Managing Director Keith Jordan announced that the company would be establishing its design office at the Newton Aycliffe factory.

Four people are currently working from an office facility in nearby Newton Aycliffe. The site will eventually house 12 design staff, recruitment for which has already begun. Once the factory is complete and handed over, the design office will relocate there.

http://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/2015/01/08/newton-aycliffe-to-host-hitachi-design-team

 

[Mikey C]

The plant could go 2 ways. It could be a token final assembly plant, that closes in 10 years once the main contracts have been completed, with no legacy

Or, it could be like the (relatively) nearby Nissan plant, which started out as a basic final assembly plant, and is now the UK's largest car plant, producing more cars than the whole of Italy.

 

[fowler9]

The plant could go 2 ways. It could be a token final assembly plant, that closes in 10 years once the main contracts have been completed, with no legacy

Or, it could be like the (relatively) nearby Nissan plant, which started out as a basic final assembly plant, and is now the UK's largest car plant, producing more cars than the whole of Italy.

I hope the second is correct. And even if it just stays as a final assembly plant for a few years it will be paying better than a call centre and give its employees a trade rather than being able to say sorry to disgruntled customers over the phone.

 

[gazthomas]

The plant could go 2 ways. It could be a token final assembly plant, that closes in 10 years once the main contracts have been completed, with no legacy

Or, it could be like the (relatively) nearby Nissan plant, which started out as a basic final assembly plant, and is now the UK's largest car plant, producing more cars than the whole of Italy.

Here here, beats what Siemens have done

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Here here, beats what Siemens have done

Wasn't there an article in one of the railway magazines shortly after the Thameslink order was given to Siemens, that showed that the Desiro City unit actually contained MORE components from contractors within the UK than the rival Bombardier product which would have been assembled in Derby?

 

[WatcherZero]

Yes, was only about 5% in it high 50's, low 60's by value, despite the body shells being made in Japan these are supposed to be nearly 70% UK supply chain by value.

 

[jon0844]

Yes, I think Siemens produced various posters showing where all the bits came from.

Nevertheless Siemens is German and Bombardier obviously British....!

 

[WatcherZero]

Remember during the Thameslink award press war from Derby, they complained that Siemens trains wouldn't use British built bogies, even though the Bombardier bogies are now built in Germany and Norway, and the Bombardier bogie was Siemens contracted backup design if their own new design wasn't ready in time! As at the time the Siemens design wasn't completed and it looked highly likely they may end up using the B5000 they were essentially criticising their own product as being not made in Britain.

 

[ainsworth74]

Plus don't Siemens employ more people directly than Bombardier even without Siemens having a factory here?

 

[cactustwirly]

Yes, I think Siemens produced various posters showing where all the bits came from.

Nevertheless Siemens is German and Bombardier obviously British....!

Bombardier Transportation is also German, but obviously it is owned by Bombardier which is Canadian

 

[WatcherZero]

Hes referring to the attitude of the Derby unions and local newspaper.

 

[fowler9]

Bombardier Transportation is also German, but obviously it is owned by Bombardier which is Canadian

Was going to say Bombardier aren't British.

 

[D365]

Was going to say Bombardier aren't British.

Jon's quite aware of that, as was explained above - it's one of his common anti-Bombardier quips :P

 

[fowler9]

Jon's quite aware of that, as was explained above - it's one of his common anti-Bombardier quips :P

Oops. Ha ha. Apologies.

 

[route:oxford]

If you have ever watched any documentarys about the Boeing plant you will know they have a vast array of workshops and highly skilled engineers actually building the aircraft.

Done better than that. I've visited their factory just outside Seattle, it's well worth a visit...

Their logistics and international supply chain is amazing. Aircraft are transferred across the USA by rail. Within the factory it is stunning to watch
vast aircraft flow through the factory below you.

If you can, stop watching documentaries and start experiencing the world.

Flights are available on the BA website from Manchester to Seattle this October for just £425.

 

[jon0844]

Was going to say Bombardier aren't British.

I thought (hoped) it was quite obvious that I knew, but my point being that when the whole fuss was going on in the media over the procurement order going to Siemens - it was always implied that Bombardier was a British company based in Derby, while Siemens was a German company.

 

[fgwrich]

Yes, I think Siemens produced various posters showing where all the bits came from.

Nevertheless Siemens is German and Bombardier obviously British....!

Funnily enough I've kept this one handy ever since Siemens produced it and the whole 'Derby-gate / Siemens isn't British, their German' business came up and associated media releases since.

Siemens - Yes, they are German based and are a German Firm. However, I have always seen them as an Anglo-German company, as their first patent was registered in London by one Sir Carl Siemens. Since then, they have gone from strength to strength in the UK, having started from producing a small magnet-less dynamo to creating the first Electric Powered Street lighting anywhere in the world - Godalming in Surrey by the way, powered from the local watermill. They are major players and employers in the UK, in markets such as renewable energies, technologies, traffic control systems, Industrial systems, transportation - Signalling, Telecoms, Rolling Stock, and Healthcare - Most of you will probably not realise that those nice, big and very expensive MRI Scanners & X Ray Machines in most of our hospitals are Siemens designed and built as well, with the MRI scanners built in the UK.

Anyway, It is worth taking a look at both the diagram posted by Siemens, as well as taking a look at the history of Siemens.

As for dear old Derbygate, I have very little time for Bombardier at Derby anymore. Their attitude has been for a while to sit back and let the unions do the talking for them, while producing substandard products and then wondering what to do when things go tits up. Don't forget that they only found their way into the UK by purchasing ADTRANZ, who themselves purchased the assets of ABB & BREL. It will be interesting to see how the next few years pan out, as the Japanese are known to be fairly ruthless in business - Will Derby survive after the CrossRail contract has been completed if Hitachi succeeds in County Durham, or will Hitachi start to waver after the IEP / AT200 contracts are complete and the orders start to dry up?

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I always like the Boeing UK statistic - 25% (by value) of a Boeing 787 fitted with Rolls-Royce engines is manufactured in the UK, for a value of around $55m. That's impressive, however you look at it.

What surprised me even more though was the flaperon from MH370 recovered the other month was manufactured in Spain by Airbus. It's a bit like lifting a Bombardier Voyager and finding those Alstom traction motors underneath...