Under 16s can't travel alone - Caledonian Sleeper

[Liam_Hendry]

Was planning on going to Wales at the end of the month to visit family which would involve talking the Sleeper to Crewe. But being 15 and not long coming up 16 I wouldnt be able to do this as Serco dont let under 16s travel alone? Is there a reason for this - when I can easily travel the same journey during the day? I know it's commonsemse to not let younger children go but by the time you reach 14/15 arent you more than capable of making this kind of journey?

Liam

 

[najaB]

I know it's commonsemse to not let younger children go but by the time you reach 14/15 arent you more than capable of making the journey?

Some are, some aren't, they need to draw the line somewhere. Legally they have different 'duty of care' obligations to under 16s as well.

 

[455driver]

At 15 you are a child, at 16 you,are an adult.
I am sure we all know 14 year old who are far more sensible and 'grown up' than some 18 year old we know but the law has to draw a line somewhere and it is the 16th birthday.

 

[adamskiodp]

Just buy an adult ticket

 

[leaffall]

Don't forget as a lone traveller you might have to share a cabin with someone else, it's not like travelling in an ordinary carriage where there are others around, a cabin is a lot more private, they can't CRB everyone that travels and they can't risk the possibility of a 15 year old ending up sharing a cabin with a nonce. It's a grim thought but that's the long and the short of it

 

[ComUtoR]

Just buy an adult ticket

Coming onto a forum to discus the reasons for not being allowed shows a level of maturity and responsibility.

Simply buying an adult ticket shows his age.

 

[dlj83]

Simply buy an adult solo birth

 

[trainophile]

Or a seat in the non-sleeping coaches?

 

[185143]

Or a seat in the non-sleeping coaches?

even FSR wouldn't allow that.

I think the OP's issue is, mainly as I am in a similar position myself), that FSR used to allow under 16s to travel alone as long as they had a solo occupancy berth.

 

[LWB]

Oh how the world has changed! When I was fifteen my elder sister (by a long way) paid for me to have a four month solo holiday in Scandinavia. Ferry from/to Newcastle/Oslo, rail rover ticket all round Norway, Sweden and Finland along with ferries over the Baltic. Never once questioned about age.

 

[Darandio]

Why is it now 'removed'? There seems little point to me.

It was a perfectly legitimate question with perfectly legitimate answers, it could also have been useful for people browsing the forum in future.

 

[trainophile]

even FSR wouldn't allow that.

I think the OP's issue is, mainly as I am in a similar position myself), that FSR used to allow under 16s to travel alone as long as they had a solo occupancy berth.

Why ever not? It's no different from travelling on any type of train, and I can't see that minors would be forbidden to do that unaccompanied, even if it is a night service. Genuinely puzzled by that.

 

[mbreckers]

Why is it now 'removed'? There seems little point to me.

It was a perfectly legitimate question with perfectly legitimate answers, it could also have been useful for people browsing the forum in future.

I think it was the user that removed it, rather than mods

 

[34D]

If it's about age limits to travel on the sleeper then let's have it back, with a genuine well-written question please

 

[Darandio]

I think it was the user that removed it, rather than mods

Yeah, I understand that, I was addressing the OP.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I think it was the user that removed it, rather than mods

It is a very strange thread title that now confronts anyone coming late to the discussion. Are forum members expected to be mind readers...

 

[455driver]

I also thought it was a well written, sensible question which leads me to believe that the OP is more than sensible enough to make this journey on their own.

But can anyone remember that thread in D&P about that 23 year who still had their tickets bought for them by their parents who were also dealing with the ticketing problem, they were obviously not capable of travelling on their own, so you can see the problems with blanket rules but there has to be one.

 

[LowLevel]

That's what always makes me laugh about the affair - I quite often carry pretty young kids about - local journeys and long distance. Without exception they've all seemed perfectly happy - they generally have the right ticket, tucked away somewhere sensible, a bag of things with which to entertain themselves and they sit quietly and mind their own business, asking politely for help if they need it. Surely it should just be down to the correct arrangements being made with the train operator so they don't do something like book a stranger in with a 14 year old.

It's only in groups that they seem to become little buggers

 

[Romilly]

Given that Scotrail didn't apply a 16+ rule for solo occupancy of cabins, I am not sure how I see that Serco would manage to successfully defend a claim that their 16+ rule for solo occupancy of cabins isn't unjustifiable age discrimination in the provision of services, unless of course there is something buried in the detail of the age discrimination laws that gets them off the hook.

I thought that East Coast used to have a rule saying that they wouldn't carry unaccompanied under-12s, which always struck me as odd in relation to say a one-stop journey for someone in the first year of senior school travelling to school, but I see that Virgin Trains East Coast now say:

At what age can children travel on your trains unaccompanied by an adult?
There's no simple answer to this question. Essentially, children shouldn't travel unaccompanied with Virgin Trains East Coast until they are mature enough to understand the unique risks involved with rail travel. Because responsibility for a child remains with the parent, or those acting on behalf of the parent, only they can decide at what age their child is old enough to travel alone. If we notice children travelling unaccompanied and have concerns for the child’s safety, we will contact the British Transport Police for assistance. You'll find some helpful guidance for children travelling alone created by the British Transport Police here:
http://www.btp.police.uk/advice_and_information/travelling_safely/unaccompanied_children.aspx

 

[FQ]

I say that if you are 15+ you should be allowed to take the sleeper, provided you have a solo berth or are in the seated compartment. Of course it isn't like this but if you are sensible enough you should be able too.

 

[najaB]

Surely it should just be down to the correct arrangements being made with the train operator so they don't do something like book a stranger in with a 14 year old.

The only way to guarantee this is to pay for solo occupancy.

 

[yorkie]

If it was me, I would have booked an adult ticket and travelled anyway, but I couldn't officially advise doing that. But if your parents are happy for you to do that, then I can't see how it would be a problem as it would be valid.

I agree that some people would be perfectly able to do such a journey at 15, while others wouldn't at a much older age.

They won't know your age and it's impossible for someone to accurately guess with any certainty. I know some people aged 16 who would be offered child tickets without question and likewise I know some people aged under 16 who would struggle to get anything other than an adult ticket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

you can see the problems with blanket rules but there has to be one.

There doesn't - there isn't for any other UK train service! Though I can see why a Sleeper is seen to be different.

 

[najaB]

There doesn't - there isn't for any other UK train service! Though I can see why a Sleeper is seen to be different.

I think he meant a blanket rule *for* the Sleeper.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think he meant a blanket rule *for* the Sleeper.

True. The main reason for it I think is the risk of misbehaving unaccompanied kids making trouble for others on the train trying to sleep, I suspect.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

I'm guessing the reason for the 16 year-old age limit (as opposed to any other) is simply due to this being the break between child and adult tickets. It is easy to enforce an age limit when the ticket declares this.

Question is, if someone who appears younger than 16 has an adult ticket, but no ID on them, what can/should the ticket inspectors do?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

True. The main reason for it I think is the risk of misbehaving unaccompanied kids making trouble for others on the train trying to sleep, I suspect.

Drunk 18-30s are usually much noisier in my opinion and there are plenty of younger children who travel on trains with parents who can't be bothered to control them who could easily keep people awake.

I would suspect the sort of child wanting to or being allowed by their parents to make a lengthy train ride on their own is far more quiet and sensible.

Given the price of the tickets and their destinations, I doubt there are too many semi-feral kids making these journeys on their own.

 

[FQ]

What if you are 15 and on an ALR (if you have a reservation)? No access to hotels or sleepers. You would have to spend the night in waiting rooms. What would they say then I wonder?

 

[34D]

Given that Scotrail didn't apply a 16+ rule for solo occupancy of cabins, I am not sure how I see that Serco would manage to successfully defend a claim that their 16+ rule for solo occupancy of cabins isn't unjustifiable age discrimination in the provision of services, unless of course there is something buried in the detail of the age discrimination laws that gets them off the hook.

Age discrimination is only relevant to the world of employment and NOT to the provision of goods and services.

 

[Romilly]

Age discrimination is only relevant to the world of employment and NOT to the provision of goods and services.

This comment forced me to dig deeper into the matter. So far as I can see, age discrimination in the provision of services has been unlawful since 1 October 2012 but, crucially for this thread, the rules about age discrimination in the provision of services are not applied to under-18s. So I apologise that my original suggestion does not assist the OP.

 

[yorkie]

What if you are 15 and on an ALR (if you have a reservation)? No access to hotels or sleepers. You would have to spend the night in waiting rooms. What would they say then I wonder?

If they denied travel and stranded a 15-year-old that would be a very serious matter indeed. Even Serco wouldn't try that.

I was told yesterday that a berth attendant recently objected to a party of 3 first class ticket holders consisting of one adult and two Under 16s, on the basis that an Under 16 should not be in a cabin without an accompanying adult and only two of the cabins can inter-connect to form one large cabin. However they obviously didn't deny travel so the only thing that was achieved was leaving a poor impression of this awful company.