Scottish Electrification updates & discussion

[highlander]

Em no. Don't let Chippyness get in the way of the facts. The Scottish Government's budget has been cut three times this year but I note no cut to the HS2 budget or the bit Scotland pays for it.

No need to be personal. Just get it right though. Too many chips?

Well well. Typical Nationalist. Nationalist rule number 1. There can never be anything good come out of Westminster. It is impossible for westminster to make good decisions, the place is inherently evil. therefore HS2 cannot possibly bring benefits to Scotland.

Nationalist rule number 2. Devolution and freedom to make decisions at a local level are a really good thing at a national level, but cannot be allowed to trickle down any further than Edinburgh.

The vast majority of one invested in Scotland's rail network under the SNP is in the central belt. North of the Forth river? Not a lot. Plans for the future, eh'm not a lot.

HS2 will make life easier, much easier for anyone wanting to get to London. However if the SNP have there way that will probably be banned.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Well well. Typical Nationalist. Nationalist rule number 1. There can never be anything good come out of Westminster. It is impossible for westminster to make good decisions, the place is inherently evil. therefore HS2 cannot possibly bring benefits to Scotland.

Nationalist rule number 2. Devolution and freedom to make decisions at a local level are a really good thing at a national level, but cannot be allowed to trickle down any further than Edinburgh.

The vast majority of one invested in Scotland's rail network under the SNP is in the central belt. North of the Forth river? Not a lot. Plans for the future, eh'm not a lot.

HS2 will make life easier, much easier for anyone wanting to get to London. However if the SNP have there way that will probably be banned.

There do seem to be some good plans for Aberdeen to Inverness, both with the A96 dualling and bypasses and with the redoubling, linespeed increases and new stations being opened on the rail route.

It's always going to be rather difficult for rail network funds to be allocated away from the Central Belt given that the majority of the rail network in Scotland is in and around the Central Belt. Rail transport funding requires some amount of population density to be economical and that's really not common north of Perth.

To make up for it, there is much more to be spent on the road network, which is much worse up north and would have a good business case even when people live in quite disparate areas. Dualling the A9 will work wonders to improve the north-south journeys that need to be done to sustain the northern half of Scotland. The A96 work will be on a much larger scale than most works in the Central Belt due to the long length of the road, despite it only connecting two of Scotland's less populous cities across less than densely populated land.

 

[ivanhoe]

Everything is relative. I'd take a 158 every day of the week if it meant I'd never have to use a 142 again. Or a 144.

Agreed.The 158's are decent trains. Some TOCs look after their trains better than others. I regularly travel Notts to Liverpool. It's a 2.75 hour journey and is hardly a nightmare.

 

[oldman]

The vast majority of one invested in Scotland's rail network under the SNP is in the central belt. North of the Forth river? Not a lot. Plans for the future, eh'm not a lot.

I'm no political friend of anyone calling themselves Saor Alba, but this is a bit nonsensical. Improvements between Aberdeen and Inverness, improvements on the Highland line, improved local services around Inverness, new trains for the sleepers, not to mention plans to extend electrification to Aberdeen. There's plenty being done for the northern subsidy-junkies.

 

[47271]

Yes, there's plenty to compare (especially with the north of England) and reflect positively on in Scottish rail at the moment, central belt or in the north.

Referencing some posts on this thread, I wish they'd sort out the unrefurbed Scotrail 158s though, they really are very clapped out inside now. Three hours on one of those with its collapsed seat cushions - unparalleled anywhere else on the UK network for lumpiness in my experience - is not pleasant.

 

[Highland37]

Well well. Typical Nationalist. Nationalist rule number 1. There can never be anything good come out of Westminster. It is impossible for westminster to make good decisions, the place is inherently evil. therefore HS2 cannot possibly bring benefits to Scotland.

Nationalist rule number 2. Devolution and freedom to make decisions at a local level are a really good thing at a national level, but cannot be allowed to trickle down any further than Edinburgh.

The vast majority of one invested in Scotland's rail network under the SNP is in the central belt. North of the Forth river? Not a lot. Plans for the future, eh'm not a lot.

HS2 will make life easier, much easier for anyone wanting to get to London. However if the SNP have there way that will probably be banned.

There is no substance in your post, just paranoia and personal comments.

Paranoia 1 - there are no rules you speak of. You just made it up.
Paranoia 2 - Factually you are incorrect. There are significant plans, which anyone can see, to invest north of the Forth.
Paranoia 3 - Anyone who raises the prospect of spending billions of money on HS2 instead of railways in the Highlands, such are your good self, will "ban" it. HS2 can't be "banned" by a political party.

Wow!

Where would you spend the billions from Scotland going on HS2 if you could do so north of the Forth instead?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm no political friend of anyone calling themselves Saor Alba, but this is a bit nonsensical. Improvements between Aberdeen and Inverness, improvements on the Highland line, improved local services around Inverness, new trains for the sleepers, not to mention plans to extend electrification to Aberdeen. There's plenty being done for the northern subsidy-junkies.

Agreed and my profile name is more tongue in cheek. Factually Highlander is incorrect as you point out but the level of paranoia that now exists requires a dogmatic argument to be dusted off periodically.

I reckon the 158s are pretty poor now.

Once the wires hit Stirling, it would make sense to continue to Perth and Dundee.

Anyone know which presents the bigger challenges for electrification? Stirling to Perth or Inverkeithing to Dundee?

 

[NotATrainspott]

Agreed and my profile name is more tongue in cheek. Factually Highlander is incorrect as you point out but the level of paranoia that now exists requires a dogmatic argument to be dusted off periodically.

I reckon the 158s are pretty poor now.

Once the wires hit Stirling, it would make sense to continue to Perth and Dundee.

Anyone know which presents the bigger challenges for electrification? Stirling to Perth or Inverkeithing to Dundee?

The current plan is for wires to go past Stirling to Alloa and Dunblane, which are where the commuter services end. Electrifying beyond Dunblane wouldn't do very much in the short term, since the only services on that line are ones running to Aberdeen and Inverness, neither of which could be wired soon. Electrifying Fife would happen instead, since it would allow electric commuter services on the Fife Circle and as it would allow the Dundee and Perth terminators to go electric. That it would also improve the business case for two feasible reopenings - Leven and St Andrews - is just a bonus on top of that. Wiring the Forth Bridge is something that might be a challenge but it has to happen for the benefits it brings to the rail network. In the short term, stringing up the wires between Perth and Carnoustie first could allow new local services before the wires stretch back down to Dunblane.

At this point, the only sensible thing to do is to try and wire the entirety of one route before wiring the other, as there are no other combinations of services. Wires to Aberdeen would serve more people directly and would convert more services to electric-only traction, so it seems sensible that Transport Scotland have discussed it more than the alternative of wiring the HML. Wiring the HML would be the sensible next step since it would convert the entire ScotRail InterCity service, and the northern extensions of East Coast services, to electric-only operation. The question is then whether it's worthwhile wiring between Aberdeen and Inverness, which isn't something that Network Rail currently sees in its long term plan for the rail network. However, if the current and planned improvements to that line increase its popularity, then it seems entirely possible that it would be done after the two north-south routes. Doing it would mean that ScotRail would need no diesel InterCity trains at all, leaving the rural routes as the only non-electrified services.

 

[Altnabreac]

I travel on the line from Inverness north every day. The 158s are awful trains and no one I know likes them.

Everything is relative. I'd take a 158 every day of the week if it meant I'd never have to use a 142 again. Or a 144.

Agreed.The 158's are decent trains. Some TOCs look after their trains better than others. I regularly travel Notts to Liverpool. It's a 2.75 hour journey and is hardly a nightmare.

Referencing some posts on this thread, I wish they'd sort out the unrefurbed Scotrail 158s though, they really are very clapped out inside now. Three hours on one of those with its collapsed seat cushions - unparalleled anywhere else on the UK network for lumpiness in my experience - is not pleasant.

All you lot worried about the 158s can relax. The refurbishment programme is underway and the first train is launched today.

ScotRail unveils first of 40 new-look trains

ScotRail today unveiled the first of 40 new-look trains as part of a £14million modernisation project.

The new trains will deliver improved seating, better lighting, accessibility enhancements and at-seat power sockets for customers.

The two-carriage Class 158 trains will be painted in ScotRail’s 'Saltire' livery and receive revamped interiors including modern carpets, finishes and toilets.

The 137-seat trains will also be fitted with new CCTV systems and automated passenger-counting systems.

The fleet is being upgraded with Scotland’s scenic railways in mind, with seats aligned alongside windows to offer panoramic views on the country’s most picturesque routes.

The refurbishment project is being funded by ScotRail, and jointly managed by Porterbrook. The work being carried out at the Knorr-Bremse RailServices’ Springburn facility in Glasgow – with 14 extra new staff already recruited specifically for this project.

The first carriage will leave the depot tomorrow (2/9) and will be on the track ready for the opening day of the new Borders Railway.

http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/news/scotrail-unveils-first-40-new-look-trains

 

[Philip Phlopp]

There is no substance in your post, just paranoia and personal comments.

Paranoia 1 - there are no rules you speak of. You just made it up.
Paranoia 2 - Factually you are incorrect. There are significant plans, which anyone can see, to invest north of the Forth.
Paranoia 3 - Anyone who raises the prospect of spending billions of money on HS2 instead of railways in the Highlands, such are your good self, will "ban" it. HS2 can't be "banned" by a political party.

Wow!

Where would you spend the billions from Scotland going on HS2 if you could do so north of the Forth instead?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Agreed and my profile name is more tongue in cheek. Factually Highlander is incorrect as you point out but the level of paranoia that now exists requires a dogmatic argument to be dusted off periodically.

I reckon the 158s are pretty poor now.

Once the wires hit Stirling, it would make sense to continue to Perth and Dundee.

Anyone know which presents the bigger challenges for electrification? Stirling to Perth or Inverkeithing to Dundee?

The easier route by far is Dunblane to Perth, but will need resignalled as it's still semaphore signalled in areas.

It's not a complicated route to resignal or to electrify, from Dunblane north, there's very few overbridges, there's only a couple of sidings and crossovers, and there's only one junction (Hilton Junction) for the route to Ladybank.

Moncrieff Tunnel would be a concern, it might need a track lower, but I've a feeling it would be OK with a rigid overhead conductor solution, I'm fairly certain the last couple of bridges in Perth - Edinburgh Road and St Leonard's Bridge will need lifted. The station itself is fine, but in an idea world, would be completely obliterated and started again from scratch. Perth deserves better than the asbestos and tin cow shed it's stuck with now.

The route from Inverkeithing to Dundee is more complicated, it too needs resignalling in places as we've still got semaphores in use on the route. It's got a number of more complicated junctions, for the Fife Circle at Inverkeithing and Thornton, there's the junction to Perth at Ladybank and you've got Dundee Central Jn once you're over the bridge.

The tunnels at North Queensferry, Inverkeithing and Kinghorn will almost certainly need lowered or rebuilt and you'll have more bridge re-building works to complete, as the line runs through more populated areas.

The other side of the Fife Circle we will assume is being electrified at the same time, it's more straightforward with more bridge replacement/track lowering work, but nothing as complicated as the tunnels to worry about (I'm saying all those before survey and gauging work has been done though).

We will need decisions on passenger services from Edinburgh to Alloa via Charlestown Jn (converting the Longannet goods line to passenger use and electrifying the route) and the Methil branch (re-opening and electrification) to decide on appropriate feeding arrangements. If the route from Stirling to Charlestown Jn is electrified, I'd expect the existing grid access point at Longannet might be usable as a feeder. The route to Methil could be re-opened with an interest in using it for freight, so the route would need to cope with electric locomotives in addition to just one or maybe two EMUs at a time.

Past Thornton, the route is fairly straight forward - the only issue you might have is choosing whether to electrify the fuel depot at Linkswood, assuming it's going to remain available for use in the future. Then you're onto the Forth Bridge, which we would assume will be electrified with a variant of the rigid overhead conductor system to remove the need for tensioning and catenary wire height. I don't see either the Tay or Forth Bridges causing excessive problems for electrification, but the tunnels just north of the Forth Bridge would be my immediate concern.

I'd expect another Winchburgh type operation if they need lowered, with some services using the west side of the Fife Circle and more Aberdeen services being diverted via Stirling and Perth onto Dundee, but that's just off the top of my head. I've no prior knowledge of whether things have been looked at or plans drawn up as yet, beyond very basic costings and confirmation nothing is absolutely impossible.

 

[47271]

[Altnabreac ] All you lot worried about the 158s can relax. The refurbishment programme is underway and the first train is launched today.


http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/news/scotrail-unveils-first-40-new-look-trains


Great news, and thanks for the link. So we are guaranteed a lumpless seat on any Scotrail route by 2018...

Just in time too: only yesterday I was wondering how they'd get through next week on the Borders without extensive public comment on the decrepit state of the interior of the stock used. Even having one posh refurbed 158 and more in the pipeline should be enough to head that off I hope.

 

[Altnabreac]

The easier route by far is Dunblane to Perth, but will need resignalled as it's still semaphore signalled in areas.

It's not a complicated route to resignal or to electrify, from Dunblane north, there's very few overbridges, there's only a couple of sidings and crossovers, and there's only one junction (Hilton Junction) for the route to Ladybank.

Moncrieff Tunnel would be a concern, it might need a track lower, but I've a feeling it would be OK with a rigid overhead conductor solution, I'm fairly certain the last couple of bridges in Perth - Edinburgh Road and St Leonard's Bridge will need lifted. The station itself is fine, but in an idea world, would be completely obliterated and started again from scratch. Perth deserves better than the asbestos and tin cow shed it's stuck with now.

The route from Inverkeithing to Dundee is more complicated, it too needs resignalling in places as we've still got semaphores in use on the route. It's got a number of more complicated junctions, for the Fife Circle at Inverkeithing and Thornton, there's the junction to Perth at Ladybank and you've got Dundee Central Jn once you're over the bridge.

The tunnels at North Queensferry, Inverkeithing and Kinghorn will almost certainly need lowered or rebuilt and you'll have more bridge re-building works to complete, as the line runs through more populated areas.

The other side of the Fife Circle we will assume is being electrified at the same time, it's more straightforward with more bridge replacement/track lowering work, but nothing as complicated as the tunnels to worry about (I'm saying all those before survey and gauging work has been done though).

We will need decisions on passenger services from Edinburgh to Alloa via Charlestown Jn (converting the Longannet goods line to passenger use and electrifying the route) and the Methil branch (re-opening and electrification) to decide on appropriate feeding arrangements. If the route from Stirling to Charlestown Jn is electrified, I'd expect the existing grid access point at Longannet might be usable as a feeder. The route to Methil could be re-opened with an interest in using it for freight, so the route would need to cope with electric locomotives in addition to just one or maybe two EMUs at a time.

Past Thornton, the route is fairly straight forward - the only issue you might have is choosing whether to electrify the fuel depot at Linkswood, assuming it's going to remain available for use in the future. Then you're onto the Forth Bridge, which we would assume will be electrified with a variant of the rigid overhead conductor system to remove the need for tensioning and catenary wire height. I don't see either the Tay or Forth Bridges causing excessive problems for electrification, but the tunnels just north of the Forth Bridge would be my immediate concern.

I'd expect another Winchburgh type operation if they need lowered, with some services using the west side of the Fife Circle and more Aberdeen services being diverted via Stirling and Perth onto Dundee, but that's just off the top of my head. I've no prior knowledge of whether things have been looked at or plans drawn up as yet, beyond very basic costings and confirmation nothing is absolutely impossible.

I haven't heard what development has been done but at some point before 2018 you'd expect some preparatory work to start to develop electrification schemes for CP6.

The CP5 Future Network Development Fund is specifically intended to:

Fund or support the development of proposals for strategic interventions to improve the capacity and capability of the Scottish network in Control Period 6 and beyond. There is £11m available for this purpose.

The idea is to work up projects now to be implemented in CP6. Suitable projects are described as:

It is expected that most schemes will have been identified in previous work, such as the Strategic Transport Projects Review (STPR), Scotland Route Utilisation Strategy or similar documents, but may also arise from discussions at Scotland Route Investment Review Group or as otherwise brought forward by Transport Scotland.

Rolling programme of electrification is explicitly listed as one of the projects to be developed by this fund for delivery in CP6.

Given this will be based on the STPR phasing you would expect this to be the ordering used:

Priority 6 – Further Electrification of the Strategic Rail Network

• Phase 2 - Electrification of the remaining routes in the Central Belt (Maryhill, East Kilbride, Barrhead, Kilmarnock);
• Phase 3 - Electrification of routes between Edinburgh, Perth and Dundee including the Fife Circle;
• Phase 4 - Electrification from Dunblane to Aberdeen;
• Phase 5 - Electrification from Perth to Inverness.

So I'd expect the routes being developed now for implementation in CP6 would be Phase 2 and Phase 3. Dunblane - Perth falls into Phase 4 so is more likely to be delivered in CP7.

 

[highlander]

I'm no political friend of anyone calling themselves Saor Alba, but this is a bit nonsensical. Improvements between Aberdeen and Inverness, improvements on the Highland line, improved local services around Inverness, new trains for the sleepers, not to mention plans to extend electrification to Aberdeen. There's plenty being done for the northern subsidy-junkies.

Plans for electrification to Aberdeen??? You are having a laugh??When 2150 onwards? The improvements agreed so far are a pittance compared with what has been spent in the central belt. the journey time between Aberdeen / Edinburgh or Glasgow or Inverness and Edinburgh and Glasgow has barely changed over the last 10 years.

As for subsidy junkies, Aberdeen puts a lot more into the Scottish economy than it ever gets out. the investment Aberdeen since devolution has been minimal. It doesn't even have a bypass yet. But don't let the facts get in the way of your prejudice eh?

Never mind good enough for a few ignorant teuchters eh??
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There do seem to be some good plans for Aberdeen to Inverness, both with the A96 dualling and bypasses and with the redoubling, linespeed increases and new stations being opened on the rail route.

It's always going to be rather difficult for rail network funds to be allocated away from the Central Belt given that the majority of the rail network in Scotland is in and around the Central Belt. Rail transport funding requires some amount of population density to be economical and that's really not common north of Perth.

To make up for it, there is much more to be spent on the road network, which is much worse up north and would have a good business case even when people live in quite disparate areas. Dualling the A9 will work wonders to improve the north-south journeys that need to be done to sustain the northern half of Scotland. The A96 work will be on a much larger scale than most works in the Central Belt due to the long length of the road, despite it only connecting two of Scotland's less populous cities across less than densely populated land.

Dulling the A9 was some thing the SNP promised when they came to power 8 years ago. To date the only bit that is dualled is at Crubenmore and this was already in planning when they came to power.

They have made a promise, but not a single mile has been built. At current predictions it will take another 20 years. If it ever happens at all

A lot could be done without electrification of the HML. We need an hourly service to Edinburgh and Glasgow. This is not a lot to ask for. If that happened along with new freight paths the A9 would not be such a priority.

But that will never happen until ever conceivable project in Edinburgh and Glasgow is completed.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I haven't heard what development has been done but at some point before 2018 you'd expect some preparatory work to start to develop electrification schemes for CP6.

...

So I'd expect the routes being developed now for implementation in CP6 would be Phase 2 and Phase 3. Dunblane - Perth falls into Phase 4 so is more likely to be delivered in CP7.

There have been very preliminary costings and viability checks done - they're the rough figures which appear in the STPR - a quick count of route kilometres, bridges, tunnels, re-signalling, immunisation and rough feeding requirements to get an idea for what needs to be done and a rough idea on the costs involved.

The Draft CP6 RUS is due out in Summer 2016, which should have the planned electrification work detailed, with additional options for the Government to choose from. It might not be present though, depending on how it's intended to fund the electrification scheme. I understand provision has been made in future Scottish Government budgets for borrowing against RAB funding costs, but Network Rail can also borrow directly from the Scottish Government through the Scottish Government's borrowing powers now, so the scheme could be specified across more than one five year control period, possibly with a more defined rolling program of electrification over, say, 8 years.

I'll also say that I don't understand the decision not to electrify Dunblane to Hilton Jn until Phase 4 - it's probably going to be the easiest and cheapest section of twin track railway to electrify in Scotland. The intention with the STPR is clearly to electrify Ladybank to Hilton Jn and onto Perth, as part of the Phase 3 Edinburgh to Dundee outputs.

 

[Altnabreac]

Plans for electrification to Aberdeen??? You are having a laugh??When 2150 onwards? The improvements agreed so far are a pittance compared with what has been spent in the central belt. the journey time between Aberdeen / Edinburgh or Glasgow or Inverness and Edinburgh and Glasgow has barely changed over the last 10 years.

As for subsidy junkies, Aberdeen puts a lot more into the Scottish economy than it ever gets out. the investment Aberdeen since devolution has been minimal. It doesn't even have a bypass yet. But don't let the facts get in the way of your prejudice eh?

Never mind good enough for a few ignorant teuchters eh??
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Dulling the A9 was some thing the SNP promised when they came to power 8 years ago. To date the only bit that is dualled is at Crubenmore and this was already in planning when they came to power.

They have made a promise, but not a single mile has been built. At current predictions it will take another 20 years. If it ever happens at all

A lot could be done without electrification of the HML. We need an hourly service to Edinburgh and Glasgow. This is not a lot to ask for. If that happened along with new freight paths the A9 would not be such a priority.

But that will never happen until ever conceivable project in Edinburgh and Glasgow is completed.

Look you are obviously one of those professional moaner types but you are ignoring the information being posted.

Electrification to Aberdeen is Phase 4 of the STPR recommendation so it isn't happening right now but it's clearly in the programme.
http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/report/j10194c-11.htm

Aberdeen Bypass is under construction right now. It was delayed but the reasons for that are long and complex and mainly to do with statutory processes and judicial challenges rather than government inaction.
http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/project/aberdeen-western-peripheral-route-balmedie-tipperty

A9 dualling is a long term project but the first construction contract was signed this year and £120 million has been spent on design contracts for the whole route.

That's £120m just to design the roads. You can see the programming of the design work here:
http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk...jects/A9 Dualling/A9 Programme-March-2014.pdf

With all the design and statutory processes to go through and then construction to follow that a completion date of 2025 is ambitious but doable. You can't just start pouring tarmac on the countryside without doing any design work.

Design work is also starting for the A96 dualling too:
http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/project/a96-dualling-inverness-aberdeen/a96-dualling-faqs

As regards rail, you can lok yourself at the CP5 delivery plan for Scotland:
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/cp5-delivery-plan/cp5-enhancements-delivery-plan.pdf

There you'll note the Aberdeen to Inverness Improvements Phase 1 which will allow an hourly service on that route with journey time improvements and new stations. If you want to see how work is going on delivering the project why not follow https://twitter.com/networkraila2i the project on Twitter where you can see exactly how fast the project is progressing. Design should be complete by March next year with delivery by 2019 at the latest.

As regards an hourly service on the Highland Main Line you'll see that Highland Main Line Journey Time Improvements (Phase 2) is another Transport Scotland specified project in the CP5 delivery plan. The project is currently being redesigned by Network Rail to take account of the HSTs Abellio are going to use from 2018 but there should be a GRIP3 plan by next year and completion again by 2019.

But apart from spending billions on dualling the roads to the Highlands and millions on improving rail frequencies and speeds and the longer term plan for electrification to both Aberdeen and Inverness you're quite right of course, nothing is being done to improve transport outside the central belt.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Plans for electrification to Aberdeen??? You are having a laugh??When 2150 onwards? The improvements agreed so far are a pittance compared with what has been spent in the central belt. the journey time between Aberdeen / Edinburgh or Glasgow or Inverness and Edinburgh and Glasgow has barely changed over the last 10 years.

As for subsidy junkies, Aberdeen puts a lot more into the Scottish economy than it ever gets out. the investment Aberdeen since devolution has been minimal. It doesn't even have a bypass yet. But don't let the facts get in the way of your prejudice eh?

Never mind good enough for a few ignorant teuchters eh??
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Dulling the A9 was some thing the SNP promised when they came to power 8 years ago. To date the only bit that is dualled is at Crubenmore and this was already in planning when they came to power.

They have made a promise, but not a single mile has been built. At current predictions it will take another 20 years. If it ever happens at all

A lot could be done without electrification of the HML. We need an hourly service to Edinburgh and Glasgow. This is not a lot to ask for. If that happened along with new freight paths the A9 would not be such a priority.

But that will never happen until ever conceivable project in Edinburgh and Glasgow is completed.

Would you please just read what myself and other people have posted?

Almost everything you want is coming in the new ScotRail franchise. Faster journey times to Inverness and Aberdeen, an hourly service to Inverness, massively improved quality of service with the refurbished HSTs and so on.

It is efficient to complete the suburban electrification around Glasgow before moving on to other projects. There really isn't that much that needs done. The only non-electrified suburban route out of Central will be the South Western line to Kilmarnock, and electrifying it would also do Barrhead and East Kilbride services as well. The only non-electrified suburban service out of Queen Street will be to Anniesland, which is very short and would allow other electric trains to go on that service rather than waiting in the platform at Queen Street HL.

Electrifying the Fife commuter lines is absolutely essential for electrification to Aberdeen and Inverness, as there would be no point in having electric trains going to only Glasgow or Edinburgh rather than both. The only other suburban Edinburgh line that could be wired is the Borders Railway, which isn't going to be as much of a priority as it is so self-contained.

 

[Altnabreac]

The only non-electrified suburban service out of Queen Street will be to Anniesland, which is very short and would allow other electric trains to go on that service rather than waiting in the platform at Queen Street HL.

Also electrifying suburban services at Queen St and Waverley frees up capacity and reduces journey times for longer distance services like those to Inverness and Aberdeen because of the better acceleration performance of electric trains, especially on routes with lots of stops.

You wouldn't want to electrify to Aberdeen while leaving Anniesland or Fife Circle as diesel operated as these services would end up slowing down the intercity services.

Better to phase it logically as its planned.

 

[Highland37]

Plans for electrification to Aberdeen??? You are having a laugh??When 2150 onwards? The improvements agreed so far are a pittance compared with what has been spent in the central belt. the journey time between Aberdeen / Edinburgh or Glasgow or Inverness and Edinburgh and Glasgow has barely changed over the last 10 years.

As for subsidy junkies, Aberdeen puts a lot more into the Scottish economy than it ever gets out. the investment Aberdeen since devolution has been minimal. It doesn't even have a bypass yet. But don't let the facts get in the way of your prejudice eh?

Never mind good enough for a few ignorant teuchters eh??
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Dulling the A9 was some thing the SNP promised when they came to power 8 years ago. To date the only bit that is dualled is at Crubenmore and this was already in planning when they came to power.

They have made a promise, but not a single mile has been built. At current predictions it will take another 20 years. If it ever happens at all

A lot could be done without electrification of the HML. We need an hourly service to Edinburgh and Glasgow. This is not a lot to ask for. If that happened along with new freight paths the A9 would not be such a priority.

But that will never happen until ever conceivable project in Edinburgh and Glasgow is completed.

Again you are letting your rage get in the way of facts. On one hand you mention the bit of the A9 at Crubenmore and then say not a single mile has been built. They have committed £3 billion to the A9 and it doesn't happen overnight.

Also, an hourly service has also been committed to from Inverness.

Tha mi a' gabhail ris gur e teuchter ceart a th' annad?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The easier route by far is Dunblane to Perth, but will need resignalled as it's still semaphore signalled in areas.

I.

Many thanks for your informative reply.

 

[clc]

A lot could be done without electrification of the HML. We need an hourly service to Edinburgh and Glasgow. This is not a lot to ask for. If that happened along with new freight paths the A9 would not be such a priority.
.

This interactive map will cheer you up:-
http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/map-scotrail-franchise-renewal-programme/

Highland Mainline
Hourly service and freight improvements by 2019.
Fastest journey time of 2h45m by 2025.

 

[Class 170101]

So I'd expect the routes being developed now for implementation in CP6 would be Phase 2 and Phase 3. Dunblane - Perth falls into Phase 4 so is more likely to be delivered in CP7.

I don't think the ordering of those schemes should be taken as read.

As I recall some of the phasing around the NW triangle has been changed since it was first planned so I see no reason why the same cannot happen here.

I concur with Philip Phloop's comments that wiring between Dunblane and Aberdeen via Perth is probably easier than via the Fife Circle and Dundee. I would be interested to see how that works on the Tay Bridge - is there not a weight restriction on this bridge?

 

[NotATrainspott]

I don't think the ordering of those schemes should be taken as read.

As I recall some of the phasing around the NW triangle has been changed since it was first planned so I see no reason why the same cannot happen here.

I concur with Philip Phloop's comments that wiring between Dunblane and Aberdeen via Perth is probably easier than via the Fife Circle and Dundee. I would be interested to see how that works on the Tay Bridge - is there not a weight restriction on this bridge?

It may be easier but the business case won't be that good. Electrifying Dunblane to Aberdeen would take many years and would electrify only the Glasgow-Aberdeen express service. Wiring Fife would convert all Fife Circle, Dundee and Perth stopping commuter services as well as being essential for later electric services to Aberdeen. Wiring Haymarket and Dunblane to Perth and Dundee first means that when you electrify either of Aberdeen or Inverness, you immediately allow all services on that line to turn electric.

 

[highlander]

Again you are letting your rage get in the way of facts. On one hand you mention the bit of the A9 at Crubenmore and then say not a single mile has been built. They have committed £3 billion to the A9 and it doesn't happen overnight.

Also, an hourly service has also been committed to from Inverness.

Tha mi a' gabhail ris gur e teuchter ceart a th' annad?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Many thanks for your informative reply.

Firstly in line with the overwhelming number of Highlanders I do not speak gaelic and none of my ancestors ever have. I come from a part of the Highlands where Norse would be our historic language. However we are quite happy speaking our native tongue English.

The A9 work at Crubenmore was organised before the SNP came to power. In the 8 years they have been in power there have been no improvements to the A9. In fact they haven't even kept up with filling the potholes.

I am fully aware of the commitments to an hourly service on the HML, however as with most things from the SNP it hasn't actually happened. So I will wait until it is real. At best the first tangible improvements we will see will 10+ years after the SNP came to power. So excuse me for not getting over excited. Or grateful.

My point here is not made through rage, I am resigned to the fact that devolution of power stops firmly at Edinburgh and Edinburgh rule looks very similar to Westminster rule from the Highlands.

Transport policy in Scotland is not really planned. We need an integrated transport system that is properly thought through with investment targeted to that end. It is not a big country, it isn't difficult. Instead we have a notch pitch of quick fixes and populist schemes.

 

[najaB]

I would be interested to see how that works on the Tay Bridge - is there not a weight restriction on this bridge?

I believe the weight restriction has been removed, but the signalling doesn't allow two trains on the high girders at the same time - effectively making it a single track section as far as timetabling is concerned. My understanding is that this will be changed when the renovation project is completed.

 

[highlander]

Oh and also HML and Aberdeen get 40 year old HST sets, the central belt gets brand new trains. I know HST's are good comfortable trains but by the time we get them even with refurb they are knocking on a bit.

But good enough eh?

2025 a fastest journey time of 2:45. Forgive me for not getting excited that my regular journey on this service is about to get better

 

[NotATrainspott]

Firstly in line with the overwhelming number of Highlanders I do not speak gaelic and none of my ancestors ever have. I come from a part of the Highlands where Norse would be our historic language. However we are quite happy speaking our native tongue English.

The A9 work at Crubenmore was organised before the SNP came to power. In the 8 years they have been in power there have been no improvements to the A9. In fact they haven't even kept up with filling the potholes.

I am fully aware of the commitments to an hourly service on the HML, however as with most things from the SNP it hasn't actually happened. So I will wait until it is real. At best the first tangible improvements we will see will 10+ years after the SNP came to power. So excuse me for not getting over excited. Or grateful.

My point here is not made through rage, I am resigned to the fact that devolution of power stops firmly at Edinburgh and Edinburgh rule looks very similar to Westminster rule from the Highlands.

Transport policy in Scotland is not really planned. We need an integrated transport system that is properly thought through with investment targeted to that end. It is not a big country, it isn't difficult. Instead we have a notch pitch of quick fixes and populist schemes.

Have you any understanding of the way in which rail services are provisioned in Scotland?

The new ScotRail franchise agreement is a binding contract between the Scottish Ministers (read: the SNP Government) and Abellio ScotRail, and it stipulates all the requirements they have set and when they need to be delivered. The journey time improvements aren't possible immediately because they rely on the availability of the new refurbished HSTs, trains which are still in use on the Great Western Main Line right now and won't be freed up until the new Hitachi IEP trains are delivered in 2017. The binding contractual agreement is the most they can do right now and that binding contractual agreement means that it has to be delivered, or Abellio ScotRail will be fined heavily.

 

[Altnabreac]

Firstly in line with the overwhelming number of Highlanders I do not speak gaelic and none of my ancestors ever have. I come from a part of the Highlands where Norse would be our historic language. However we are quite happy speaking our native tongue English.

The A9 work at Crubenmore was organised before the SNP came to power. In the 8 years they have been in power there have been no improvements to the A9. In fact they haven't even kept up with filling the potholes.

I am fully aware of the commitments to an hourly service on the HML, however as with most things from the SNP it hasn't actually happened. So I will wait until it is real. At best the first tangible improvements we will see will 10+ years after the SNP came to power. So excuse me for not getting over excited. Or grateful.

My point here is not made through rage, I am resigned to the fact that devolution of power stops firmly at Edinburgh and Edinburgh rule looks very similar to Westminster rule from the Highlands.

Transport policy in Scotland is not really planned. We need an integrated transport system that is properly thought through with investment targeted to that end. It is not a big country, it isn't difficult. Instead we have a notch pitch of quick fixes and populist schemes.

So you're just ignoring all the evidence posted refuting your claims then?

Ironically one of the documents I linked to was the Strategic Transport Projects Review (STPR) which is exactly the integrated transport plan you say is lacking above.

That process analysed the transport needs across Scotland over a 30 year timeframe and is now forming the basis for delivery of both road and rail projects.

Massive investment is underway in both the north east and the Highlands although assuming you're from Caithness there is less direct investment there but you'll benefit from both A9 and A96 dualling plus HML and A2I rail projects.

 

[matchmaker]

The easier route by far is Dunblane to Perth, but will need resignalled as it's still semaphore signalled in areas.

Why? Semaphore signals are not incompatible with electrification.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Why? Semaphore signals are not incompatible with electrification.

Semaphore signals, as currently installed, are almost always incompatible with 25kV OLE in some way. They can be made to be compatible, but it's not something that's generally done unless it's absolutely unavoidable.

I can't think of anywhere that's going to retain semaphore signalling within the current programs, though I'd be unsurprised if there's a few special locations.

The signal has to be in a position of safety away from the overhead wires and any part of the cantilever structure not insulated, or it needs to be fitted with safety mesh grids to physically prevent S&T staff or their equipment from coming within 600mm of the nearest part of a structure which is energised. That's a bit of a nuisance when there are different designs from the many different railway companies and suppliers.

Sighting issues also come into play and generally are more awkward to deal with as you're not just having to allow sighting of a series of colour lights, but of a semaphore arm and light.

It's also quite surprising how many signal boxes themselves cause a headache for the electrification design teams, thanks to balconies, bay windows and unusual access arrangements.

 

[kevin5025]

So you're just ignoring all the evidence posted refuting your claims then?

Ironically one of the documents I linked to was the Strategic Transport Projects Review (STPR) which is exactly the integrated transport plan you say is lacking above.

That process analysed the transport needs across Scotland over a 30 year timeframe and is now forming the basis for delivery of both road and rail projects.

Massive investment is underway in both the north east and the Highlands although assuming you're from Caithness there is less direct investment there but you'll benefit from both A9 and A96 dualling plus HML and A2I rail projects.

I'll let Highlander speak for him/herself, but the presence of these documents doesn't mean much. Newsletters of the Friends of the Far North line list broken promises. When the politicians say '2019', 2025, 2030, in my mind they might as well save their breath. I'll beleive it when I see it, in place, and completed.

They speak of integrated and planned transport, but it is sadly not being delivered. We have had Glasgow and Edinburgh airport rail links cancelled, and practically nothing done to the HML - yet. Bus links to the Scrabster ferry are gone, as are bus links from Dingwall to Ullapool. And a vauge promise has been made about a station for Inverness airport, the new terminal for which has been built on the wrong side of the runway. I don't see progress on the ground. A lot of this is due to planning ( I mean in terms of buildings and construction) which makes it increasingly difficult to have a good public transport system.

 

[Highland37]

I'll let Highlander speak for him/herself, but the presence of these documents doesn't mean much. Newsletters of the Friends of the Far North line list broken promises. When the politicians say '2019', 2025, 2030, in my mind they might as well save their breath. I'll beleive it when I see it, in place, and completed.

They speak of integrated and planned transport, but it is sadly not being delivered. We have had Glasgow and Edinburgh airport rail links cancelled, and practically nothing done to the HML - yet. Bus links to the Scrabster ferry are gone, as are bus links from Dingwall to Ullapool. And a vauge promise has been made about a station for Inverness airport, the new terminal for which has been built on the wrong side of the runway. I don't see progress on the ground. A lot of this is due to planning ( I mean in terms of buildings and construction) which makes it increasingly difficult to have a good public transport system.

Yes and it's going to get a whole lot worse with the cuts to come. Do you really expect that more investment will follow by supporting people who have said they want to spend less?

The point is, the Scottish budget is being cut. It's being cut by the Tories. The Tories are able to cut the Scottish budget due to the No vote last year despite them having only one MP in Scotland. Now you could argue that within that smaller budget the priorities are wrong but smaller it is and it will be even smaller in the future. That's the reason rail services are the way they are. Not some paranoid belief that people have it in for the Highlands.

What "Highlander" says is nonsense and based on paranoia. A quick look at Calmac shows that millions have been spent and are being spent on public services in the north.

The dualling work has started on the A9. I saw it myself this morning.

Oh and the small matter of the rail freight grants being maintained. It's a small grant certainly but it's still there.

 

[najaB]

We have had Glasgow and Edinburgh airport rail links cancelled...

The thing is that EARL was a poor design - flat junctions in tunnels under a runway all for £650M? GARL I'm not as familiar with but I understand it wasn't good value for money either.