W Driver Only Operated Trains (DOO) discussion

[455driver]

I have even bolded the important bit and you still missed it.:roll:

 

[bramling]

So in post #1755 you said that FGW have been silent on competencies for on train staff. When they send out a letter saying Train Managers will keep all their safety competencies and the trains will not run without a competent Train Manager that is apparently misleading. There's no satisfying some people I guess.

I read it as saying all current TMs will remain refreshed on their current training and keep T&Cs, but it doesn't seem to make any promise about what 'competent' means with regard to any new recruits.

Where I am there was a reorganisation a few years ago. Existing staff kept all their old competence (and pay), those new to the (technically new) grade weren't required to know or be capable of doing half of what the old people did. At the end of the day it was actually the company and its scorecards which took the hit.

 

[Jonfun]

It's not quite that blatant a difference as ive met onboard staff who said they do receive training in various safety and emergency procedures relating to the trains they work, but not route knowledge

This is the case for many (most?) TOCs who wouldn't dream of letting staff near a train without safety and emergency procedure training, but opinions in this thread from staff who work at the company suggests that FGW's onboard staff training leaves a lot to be desired. Make what of that you will when considering the large number of new staff they propose to train up...

 

[Robertj21a]

This is the case for many (most?) TOCs who wouldn't dream of letting staff near a train without safety and emergency procedure training, but opinions in this thread from staff who work at the company suggests that FGW's onboard staff training leaves a lot to be desired. Make what of that you will when considering the large number of new staff they propose to train up...

I'm getting [even more] confused now.....

If many/most TOCs provide safety and emergency procedure training - and other TOCs are already DOO anyway - are we saying in effect that this whole DOO issue is really much more related to just FGW's internal systems ?
.

 

[A-driver]

So the various letters I have had from FGW say that they are employing 100 extra on board staff. Some are Train Managers and some are Customer Hosts. So what they are saying is they are employing more Train Managers. The letter I got yesterday said the Train Managers would keep all their operational competencies.



So what I have in writing suggests there will be more trained staff not fewer.

Ah, well if managements propaganda letters during strike action say that then it must be gospel...I believe the daily mail and evening standard published something similar as well in response to the strike so I'll just blindly believe what management say without bothering to think for myself!

 

[Carlisle]

I'm getting [even more] confused now.....

If many/most TOCs provide safety and emergency procedure training - and other TOCs are already DOO anyway - are we saying in effect that this whole DOO issue is really much more related to just FGW's internal systems ?
.

No it's got virtually nothing to do with FGWs methods , simply the RMT has in recent times opposed any move towards DOO plans in the UK by all means available to them , with mixed success depending on ones viewpoint

 

[BestWestern]

I'm getting [even more] confused now.....

If many/most TOCs provide safety and emergency procedure training - and other TOCs are already DOO anyway - are we saying in effect that this whole DOO issue is really much more related to just FGW's internal systems ?
.

Both the RMT and Aslef are opposed to any extension of Driver Only Operation. In addition to the increased risk inherent with DOO operation, Aslef believe, quite rightly, that the Driver should drive the train, and the process of passengers boarding and alighting should be the responsibility of the Guard. There is a very significant addition to a Driver's workload when he is also undertaking door and train dispatch duties, there is also a risk of distraction by things such as in-cab CCTV screens for observing doors.

The RMT are concerned with jobs of those in the Guard grade. Whilst FGW promise no job losses, no reduction in pay and just about everything else they can think of short of the one request the Union are actually making, the fact is that if a Guard is no longer an essential item the future begins to look bleak. Nobody is buying the above promises, for one simple reason - if Guards are to stay, to keep their pay, to retain their competencies and to be on every single train, why go through all of this grief and remove door operation in the first place?! It's also worth remembering that most of the above was not what the company first offered, it was brought only through strike action. It still is not sufficient though; the general consensus is that once the new franchise begins in a few short years, the job grade will suffer.

 

[455driver]

How many TOCs customer service Staff are fully trained in emergency procedures?
This does not include those who are 'trained' to follow instructions given to them by a driver or guard!

 

[Carlisle]

The RMT are concerned with jobs of those in the Guard grade. Whilst FGW promise no job losses, no reduction in pay and just about everything else they can think of short of the one request the Union are actually making, the fact is that if a Guard is no longer an essential item the future begins to look bleak. Nobody is buying the above promises, for one simple reason - if Guards are to stay, to keep their pay, to retain their competencies and to be on every single train, why go through all of this grief and remove door operation in the first place.

so where do you think this will all end up? total victory for the union on health and safety grounds, a compromise or defeat amidst claims it's mostly a canny reinvention of 1970s style restrictive practices trade unionism

 

[455driver]

How can there be a compromise where there are only 2 possible outcomes?

 

[Captain Chaos]

How can there be a compromise where there are only 2 possible outcomes?

Draw up a manning agreement?

 

[Robertj21a]

How can there be a compromise where there are only 2 possible outcomes?

Well both parties will want to save face, so a 'fudge' may well result - somehow or other. It looks unlikely that either party will 'win' outright.

 

[Jonfun]

How many TOCs customer service Staff are fully trained in emergency procedures?
This does not include those who are 'trained' to follow instructions given to them by a driver or guard!

What is "fully trained", though? If all TOCs trained their RPIs or Ticket Examiners to have the same training as a Guard, then they'd be... a Guard. The Guard's skill and training is management of the emergency situation. Should every member of staff onboard sign the routes they will work over? Should every onboard staff member be trained to dispatch? Should every member of onboard staff hold PTS despite the high likelihood being they wouldn't use it once, outside of training?

Don't take this as a dig in any way - I'm genuinely interested to know views on how much safety training other folk feel staff working onboard should receive.

 

[craigybagel]

What is "fully trained", though? If all TOCs trained their RPIs or Ticket Examiners to have the same training as a Guard, then they'd be... a Guard. The Guard's skill and training is management of the emergency situation. Should every member of staff onboard sign the routes they will work over? Should every onboard staff member be trained to dispatch? Should every member of onboard staff hold PTS despite the high likelihood being they wouldn't use it once, outside of training?

Don't take this as a dig in any way - I'm genuinely interested to know views on how much safety training other folk feel staff working onboard should receive.

Well if they're going to be the only staff on board then yes, they should be trained in all of the above. Which would make them a guard, which is as it should be!

Being less pedantic though, VTWC Catering staff are trained on how to evacuate a train (including filling the carriages at the training centre with smoke) and get a basic course on track safety, as well as first aid training. That seems like a good benchmark to me.

 

[Carlisle]

IJ

What is "fully trained", though? If all TOCs trained their RPIs or Ticket Examiners to have the same training as a Guard, then they'd be... a Guard. The Guard's skill and training is management of the emergency situation. Should every member of staff onboard sign the routes they will work over? Should every onboard staff member be trained to dispatch? Should every member of onboard staff hold PTS despite the high likelihood being they wouldn't use it once, outside of training?

Don't take this as a dig in any way - I'm genuinely interested to know views on how much safety training other folk feel staff working onboard should receive.

You've more or less answered your own question, ie as ideas and opinions for change on all sides can so easily become entrenched its a minefield most have simply avoided. A meaningful high level industry debate on this kinda thing has probably never happened until very recently

 

[Robertj21a]

Being less pedantic though, VTWC Catering staff are trained on how to evacuate a train (including filling the carriages at the training centre with smoke) and get a basic course on track safety, as well as first aid training. That seems like a good benchmark to me.

Sounds eminently sensible, and probably more than I expected.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sounds eminently sensible, and probably more than I expected.

Maybe the airline influence, where all staff on board are safety critical?

Personally I agree it is a good idea. I also think all on-board/customer-facing staff, in whatever role, should be required to have basic first aid training.

 

[BestWestern]

so where do you think this will all end up? total victory for the union on health and safety grounds, a compromise or defeat amidst claims it's mostly a canny reinvention of 1970s style restrictive practices trade unionism

The short answer....

Depends on Aslef!

 

[Jonfun]

Maybe the airline influence, where all staff on board are safety critical?

There's the oft quoted phrase "safety critical" again.
A member of staff is "safety critical" because they carry out a safety critical duty. Maybe there would be benefits for staff to be trained in every duty in terms of safety and flexibility, but realisitically, for now, a travelling cleaner isn't likely to need - or, in many cases, want - to know how to dispatch a train, for example. Indeed many staff on the railway are in catering/revenue/cleaning roles because they aren't allowed to carry out safety critical work due to medical conditions or such.

 

[thelongestroad]

Well, another strike has been and gone.

I think the major test for FGW was providing a service over the last weekend; with the bank holiday and various major events in the South East to contend with.

It appears they've done a reasonable job (AFAIK, anyway) at doing so.

So I'm guessing when the RMT announces the next strike over a wet weekend in October with half the number of travellers FGW will be laughing?

As a paid up member of the RMT, it makes you wonder "what next?"....

 

[the sniper]

Maybe the airline influence, where all staff on board are safety critical?

On a 747 you can have something like 17 members of crew, many of whom are 'safety critical'.

Here on the railway people are being sick in their mouths at the prospect of having more than one safety critical member of staff on board a train... As such I can't see all staff on the train becoming safety critical.

 

[FordFocus]

The short answer....

Depends on Aslef!

I've got faith in ASLEF on this issue, particularly with the increased PTIs and meetings with the RMT. I hear that there are a lot of vocals members that are saying they don't want doors and they see First Group/DfT eventual idea of getting rid of the Train Manager grade when they threw in that it can run DOO during disruption.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

On a 747 you can have something like 17 members of crew, many of whom are 'safety critical'.

Here on the railway people are being sick in their mouths at the prospect of having more than one safety critical member of staff on board a train... As such I can't see all staff on the train becoming safety critical.

One safety critical member on an axle counter line sat in a crumple zone on a 125mph train.

And some people on here want more DOO. Scary.

 

[455driver]

As a paid up member of the RMT, it makes you wonder "what next?"....

Smart money would be on an overtime ban and refusal to help out, much more effect than an out and out strike plus the membership don't lose any money except their overtime.

 

[SkinnyDave]

Smart money would be on an overtime ban and refusal to help out, much more effect than an out and out strike plus the membership don't lose any money except their overtime.

That should have been their opening gambit and I hope it is Aslef's when we join the party!

 

[ainsworth74]

One safety critical member on an axle counter line sat in a crumple zone on a 125mph train.

Forgive me but what's the relevance of axle counters?

 

[Carlisle]

The short answer....

Depends on Aslef!

Aren't ACAS involved by now , and if not why ?

 

[FordFocus]

Forgive me but what's the relevance of axle counters?

If you derail and are blocking the other line(s) there is a chance you could damage the track circuit to return the signal to danger to help prevent a head on collision. With axle counters the circuits are removed and a lot of reliance on GSM-R Emergency Call feature to stop all trains in the area. Two points with this, the driver maybe unavailable to stop trains and if there is a guard in the train (not some RPI with no operational knowledge) they can contact the controlling signaller with their phone or go the old fashion way of clips if the GSM-R is down. That could be a for another discussion though, my main point is the only safety critical person with operational experience on a DOO train is sat in a crumple zone.

 

[ainsworth74]

That could be a for another discussion though, my main point is the only safety critical person with operational experience on a DOO train is sat in a crumple zone.

Oh I got that, I was just confused about the axle counter bit but you explained it perfectly thank you

 

[regulation9]

If you derail and are blocking the other line(s) there is a chance you could damage the track circuit to return the signal to danger to help prevent a head on collision. With axle counters the circuits are removed and a lot of reliance on GSM-R Emergency Call feature to stop all trains in the area. Two points with this, the driver maybe unavailable to stop trains and if there is a guard in the train (not some RPI with no operational knowledge) they can contact the controlling signaller with their phone or go the old fashion way of clips if the GSM-R is down. That could be a for another discussion though, my main point is the only safety critical person with operational experience on a DOO train is sat in a crumple zone.

Probably best not to encourage the use of track circuit clips if it was a derailment in an axle counter area...

 

[bnm]

That should have been their opening gambit and I hope it is Aslef's when we join the party!

Industrial action and causing disruption to the travelling public is a party is it? That attitude will endear you to the public and get them on side I'm sure. :roll: