Londoners don't want to drive buses

[notadriver]

http://www.itv.com/news/london/upda...rs-dont-want-to-drive-buses-says-bus-company/

A bus company has reportedly said it is having to look abroad to recruit drivers - because not enough people in the capital are interested in the job.

Go-ahead, which is the largest operator in London, has employed 39 people from Romania because it has been unable to fill the positions, which pay £10.50 an hour.

The new recruits are currently receiving training.

How can bus companies be discouraged from recruiting overseas? Why doesn't this happen in the rail industry?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Londoners don't want to drive buses for 20 grand a year given how stressful the job is in London traffic? No great surprise, and it isn't enough to encourage commuters in.

Perhaps they simply need to pay more?

 

[notadriver]

This is at odds with that TV show 'double decker driving school' which claims 'thousands apply every year' become London bus drivers.

 

[455driver]

This is at odds with that TV show 'double decker driving school' which claims 'thousands apply every year' become London bus drivers.

How many of those 'thousands applying' are suitable though?

 

[jon0844]

We now have an Eastern European driver on our route and I wanted to say he's no different to any other, but so far he's hit the centre of a roundabout and clipped the kerb, nearly smashed into a car and slammed his brakes on so much a woman went flying and hit a pole, and due to a problem with another bus, had no idea if he had a radio or how to use it.

Obviously the last problem is down to poor training, but why wouldn't he have asked?

He also speaks very little English, which is a bit more of a problem outside of London as he actually needs to speak to people wanting to buy tickets, rovers etc.

 

[Bertie the bus]

This is at odds with that TV show 'double decker driving school' which claims 'thousands apply every year' become London bus drivers.

Did that programme feature Go-Ahead? The kind of statement made by Go-Ahead is usually used by employers who pay low wages and want to keep those wages low by employing people from other countries who are prepared to work for them. I'd suggest it has little to do with Londoners not wanting to drive buses and far more to do with Go-Ahead not wanting to employ them so they can keep their wages as low as possible.

 

[Tetchytyke]

This is at odds with that TV show 'double decker driving school' which claims 'thousands apply every year' become London bus drivers.

They do...from Romania and Poland.

The problem is that the pay isn't good enough to be able to afford to live in London and support a family. Rather than pay enough to let bus drivers support themselves in London, Go-Ahead's fat cat directors would rather pay less and keep the difference for themselves.

 

[455driver]

Arrival Yorkshire did a similar thing several years ago and gave the foreign drivers a phrase book of translations so they could (sort of) understand what people were asking them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

He also speaks very little English, which is a bit more of a problem outside of London as he actually needs to speak to people wanting to buy tickets, rovers etc.

This is the only problem I have here. Bus drivers are customer facing staff. They must be able to speak English to an acceptable extent to drive buses in England wherever they are from (and I know there are English people who would fail that ). It wouldn't be accepted in a call centre (even one based outside the UK)!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The average pay rate for a driver in London is £10.18. Go Ahead pay more than that in year one (£10.50) and considerably more with a few years service.

Before anyone picks out margins, a few little pointers. They make better margins because they can spread their overheads over a larger business before anyone picks that out. Also, their margin is 9.3% in London. RATP Group who work almost exclusively in the regulated world (globally) make 10.3%. CDG's London ops have an 8% margin.

So you want to pay more - see how many wish to pay higher taxes to make that happen as profits are not excessive in London

I might add that my driver yesterday morning in Bath was of eastern European origin. He drove respectfully and with skill and his English was arguably as good as some Baffonians I've heard.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So you want to pay more - see how many wish to pay higher taxes to make that happen as profits are not excessive in London

That is certainly a quandary, but if you can't get people of acceptable quality at the price you're paying...

I might add that my driver yesterday morning in Bath was of eastern European origin. He drove respectfully and with skill and his English was arguably as good as some Baffonians I've heard.

I have a Polish friend, he speaks better English than me. But I do *really* object to not being understood when speaking clear English in a customer service setting when in England. That said, that goes both ways, I also think English people abroad should make more effort and not just shout English at people.

I don't care where the member of staff I'm dealing with originates, but I do care about the ability to communicate. Arriva's phrasebook example is utterly unacceptable - proper English courses should be being provided, with proper examinations to ensure competence before allowing drivers out alone with passengers.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I know this is niether the time or place to go off on a racist sounding rant about Easten Euro Bus Drivers and others but we have far to many of same round here and they are universally crap. In contrast however the various Polish Self Employed workers Iv hired (electrician, handyman and various cleaners) to do work for me at home have been generally good if a bit limmited linguisticly. As to whether they or indeed anyone else wants to drive London Buses, if driving them is as slow, time consuming and frustrating an experience for the drivers as the pax then I dont blame them. I consider all alternatives before taking a bus in the smoke for anything other than a 5-10 minute journey.

 

[radamfi]

According to what they tell me on Dutch forums, there isn't that much of a gulf between bus and train drivers pay over there. Bus drivers get paid substantially more there compared to the UK but train drivers less.

 

[Tetchytyke]

So you want to pay more - see how many wish to pay higher taxes to make that happen as profits are not excessive in London

8% margin may or may not be "excessive", it's a matter of opinion (and most people know what mine is) but an extra 8% on driver wages would certainly help.

Go-Ahead are by no means the worst payers in London- last time I checked that was Arriva- but it's a recurring issue. And not a new one either, given how much of LT's recruitment during the 50s and 60s was in the Carribbean.

As for nationality, I couldn't care less if they drive well. I've had some very good and some very bad Polish drivers; I've had some very good and some very bad English drivers.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

That is certainly a quandary, but if you can't get people of acceptable quality at the price you're paying...
.

Appreciate that but at some point, you get what you pay for. I don't begrudge bus drivers getting paid more but companies must also make their money.

Put bluntly, every £1k per person that Go Ahead London pay is about £7m. In fact, it isn't because you have to put employment costs such as NI on that so really it's about £1k per person is actually about £8.25m.

The idea that there are huge pots of cash slopping around with "fat cat" bosses may appeal to Corbynistas. Some simple calcs illustrate it otherwise and pretty quickly.

Short answer is if you want to pay your london bus driver more, then you have to increase funding centrally (via taxation and grant) or locally (via the farebox).

 

[radamfi]

If I recall there was a substantial hike in bus wages in the early Ken Livingstone days to address recruitment issues.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

If I recall there was a substantial hike in bus wages in the early Ken Livingstone days to address recruitment issues.

In the late 1970s, the problem was endemic in many areas. I guess Ken probably just put up the rates to fund it?

 

[Blindtraveler]

I dont know but Id have thought that London Buses would be at their most lucrative in terms of whats coming in now that its all cashless and they dont have the presumably high costs of handling cash?

 

[AB93]

Did that programme feature Go-Ahead? The kind of statement made by Go-Ahead is usually used by employers who pay low wages and want to keep those wages low by employing people from other countries who are prepared to work for them. I'd suggest it has little to do with Londoners not wanting to drive buses and far more to do with Go-Ahead not wanting to employ them so they can keep their wages as low as possible.

No.
It was Arriva.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Put bluntly, every £1k per person that Go Ahead London pay is about £7m. In fact, it isn't because you have to put employment costs such as NI on that so really it's about £1k per person is actually about £8.25m.

The idea that there are huge pots of cash slopping around with "fat cat" bosses may appeal to Corbynistas. Some simple calcs illustrate it otherwise and pretty quickly.

Short answer is if you want to pay your london bus driver more, then you have to increase funding centrally (via taxation and grant) or locally (via the farebox).

But to put that into context Go-Ahead do pay out over £35 million/year in dividends.

However, it isn't just bus companies that import labour to keep wages down. Hotels, restaurants, agriculture and others also do it. And when you add to that the companies who can't import labour but export jobs, again to keep wages down, it is a significant section of the economy.

 

[Bletchleyite]

However, it isn't just bus companies that import labour to keep wages down. Hotels, restaurants, agriculture and others also do it. And when you add to that the companies who can't import labour but export jobs, again to keep wages down, it is a significant section of the economy.

And I will admit I am equally dissatisfied with being misunderstood by people in those industries[1] who cannot properly understand and speak English as well. But that is a matter of selecting the ones who can (or providing quality language training) rather than just employing the first person at the cheapest wage as some do.

But the consumer is to a fair extent at fault as well - we all want the cheapest everything.

[1] OK, not agriculture

 

[HSTEd]

The cheaper solution in manufacturing is simply to only recruit people from Poland, Romania or similar.
For instance at one agency job I was the only one on the line who was not a manager and could speak fluent English.

 

[455driver]

The cheaper solution in manufacturing is simply to only recruit people from Poland, Romania or similar.
For instance at one agency job I was the only one on the line who was not a manager and could speak fluent English.

The other half used to work for Ranco in Plymouth and when they wanted a supervisor one of the requirements was that they had to speak fluent Polish, although anyone could apply for the job, equal opportunities and all that.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Put bluntly, every £1k per person that Go Ahead London pay is about £7m.

Put bluntly, Go Ahead London could give everyone working for them a £500 wage increase from the amount of dividends paid to one single person: Diana Ballinger, who happens to be the widow of the ex-chairman of Go-Ahead (and no doubt holds some of his shareholding for tax efficiency reasons after his death).

Chin chin.

No fat cats here, no siree, and bus company profits are good for pensions (the family of the late Martin Ballinger's, not mine, but that's a trifling little detail).

 

[LateThanNever]

The cheaper solution in manufacturing is simply to only recruit people from Poland, Romania or similar.
For instance at one agency job I was the only one on the line who was not a manager and could speak fluent English.

Quite, and all of this does tend to depress wages for the majority.
See How Immigration Affects the UK economy http://www.3spoken.co.uk/2014/06/how-immigration-affects-uk-economy.html?m=1 for the real info!

 

[Busaholic]

Go Ahead own London General. For years, prior to its takeover by Go Ahead, Plymouth Citybus acted as an agent for LG in training drivers and allowing LG's own training vehicles to use their depot facilities at Milehouse. In the 1970s in particular London Transport found it hard to recruit drivers in West London due to the competition from Heathrow and in East London from Ford's, Dagenham. Prior to that, it was the West Indies that was a recruiting ground, facilitated by the Minister for Health, one J. Enoch Powell!

 

[notadriver]

This is the only problem I have here. Bus drivers are customer facing staff. They must be able to speak English to an acceptable extent to drive buses in England wherever they are from (and I know there are English people who would fail that ). It wouldn't be accepted in a call centre (even one based outside the UK)!

Surely it can't be safe to allow drivers who can barely speak English behind the controls of a bus. In an emergency situation how are they supposed to communicate with the emergency services for example ?

 

[Busaholic]

The short TV series I saw on becoming a bus driver was based at London Central's Camberwell Garage, the same place where John Major failed his application to become a bus conductor. London Central is most definitely a Go Ahead company!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Put bluntly, Go Ahead London could give everyone working for them a £500 wage increase from the amount of dividends paid to one single person: Diana Ballinger, who happens to be the widow of the ex-chairman of Go-Ahead (and no doubt holds some of his shareholding for tax efficiency reasons after his death).

Chin chin.

No fat cats here, no siree, and bus company profits are good for pensions (the family of the late Martin Ballinger's, not mine, but that's a trifling little detail).

Put it bluntly....Martin Ballinger was a qualified management accountant whereas the the drink appears to have affected you....

She has 2,061,663 shares (http://www.sharecast.com/quotes/nmx/go-ahead-group-gog/director_deals.html) As for the terminally ill Martin Ballinger bequeathing his shareholding to his wife....not certain what is unusual or wrong in that?

Share dividend for 2014 was 84.50p per share for the full year (http://www.hl.co.uk/shares/shares-search-results/g/go-ahead-group-ordinary-10p/dividends)

So total dividend paid was £1,742,105 which divided by the 7000 employed by Go Ahead London is just over £248 or, based on a 39 hour week is about £0.12 an hour.

Some of us do have to rely on private pension schemes. Take it you don't...? You appear to be Head of Corbynomics....

 

[LateThanNever]

Put it bluntly....Martin Ballinger was a qualified management accountant whereas the the drink appears to have affected you....

She has 2,061,663 shares (http://www.sharecast.com/quotes/nmx/go-ahead-group-gog/director_deals.html) As for the terminally ill Martin Ballinger bequeathing his shareholding to his wife....not certain what is unusual or wrong in that?

Share dividend for 2014 was 84.50p per share for the full year (http://www.hl.co.uk/shares/shares-search-results/g/go-ahead-group-ordinary-10p/dividends)

So total dividend paid was £1,742,105 which divided by the 7000 employed by Go Ahead London is just over £248 or, based on a 39 hour week is about £0.12 an hour.

Some of us do have to rely on private pension schemes. Take it you don't...? You appear to be Head of Corbynomics....

That's rather unfair. Corbynomics is based on People's Quantitive Easing which will very much include your pension! As a primer (noting that NIB means National Investment (aka Infrastructure) Bank) see http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2015/08/30/corbynomics-four-weeks-on/