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AT300s confirmed for South West services by DfT

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Philip Phlopp

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Yes, I think there's a good chance of that, and I think it would be a very good thing indeed, particularly bi-modes that can run under wires part of the way and switch to diesel.

It arguably makes electrification easier too, as it removes the requirement for an entire route to be energised at the same time.

If you don't need to energise the whole route, you can do the engineering work in a more flexible manner, fitting in and around other possessions, which if done properly, should drive down the Schedule 4 and Schedule 8 payments.
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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Which probably means we could well see AT300 ordered to replace HST's and provide extra capacity on XC and MML.

Alstom, Siemens and Bombardier might disagree with that.
At some point these things have to go to open tender.
XC and MML can't claim compatibility with what they've got.
But I agree Hitachi has the product just now.
Not that it is in service yet.
 

HSTEd

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It arguably makes electrification easier too, as it removes the requirement for an entire route to be energised at the same time.

If you don't need to energise the whole route, you can do the engineering work in a more flexible manner, fitting in and around other possessions, which if done properly, should drive down the Schedule 4 and Schedule 8 payments.

It also makes electrification harder by eliminating the network effect.
 

Philip Phlopp

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It also makes electrification harder by eliminating the network effect.

It doesn't necessarily make electrification harder, that would depend on your feeding and ATF arrangements. The sort of scenarios I'm looking at would see out of sequence electrification and rolling extensions of existing electrification where feeder capacity exists.

I'm not expecting to see discontinuous electrification, with the speed and acceleration limitations placed on bi-mode units, we will always want to electrify complete routes, but during the electrification process itself, with the railways being as busy as they are, it could save a lot of money and keep routes open if we electrify non sequentially.
 

jimm

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And all the extras that were bolted on, remember the construction of the factory that the government paid for in the original deal would be the equivalent of at least two dozen carriages, and the research costs that were amortised on the first deal (since government commissioned and paid for the R&D) mean they don't have to be paid for on the later orders making those cheaper.

Of course there are up-front costs to factor in, but they simply don't account for that yawning gap in the likely monthly operating costs between doing it the DfT way and a more usual lease arrangement - the fault for that lies squarely at the door of the DfT.
 
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HSTEd

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I'm not expecting to see discontinuous electrification, with the speed and acceleration limitations placed on bi-mode units, we will always want to electrify complete routes, but during the electrification process itself, with the railways being as busy as they are, it could save a lot of money and keep routes open if we electrify non sequentially.

The speed and acceleration restrictions on electrodiesels are not going to stop their employment on most of the currently unelectrified lines on the network - those lines have lower performance profiles as it is.

Everything that would be electrified without the network effect is effectively electrified already.
 

NotATrainspott

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The speed and acceleration restrictions on electrodiesels are not going to stop their employment on most of the currently unelectrified lines on the network - those lines have lower performance profiles as it is.

Everything that would be electrified without the network effect is effectively electrified already.

Except for the fact that no one wants to build lots of DMUs forever more to run the local services. It may have been more economic in the past to run a two car 170 twice an hour on a route but if the demand is now there for more carriages, more frequently, then the cost of running diesels increases to the point where at the moment, it's considered better to electrify and run standard EMUs. With the plans for enhanced local rail services across the country, that means a lot of electrification which won't be affected by bi-mode long distance and freight operations whatsoever.

Once you've got wires on the local and suburban lines around South Wales, Bristol, Birmingham, Derby/Nottingham, Sheffield, Leeds, Teesside and Tyneside then you've done enough work to justify filling in the gaps, even if the trains running between them can run on diesel power. There's a pretty compelling case to electrify the steepest sections of the rail network, like the Devon Banks, so that freight can be electrically hauled and run significantly more efficiently, so there's even more of the network which can justify electrification even with the existence of bi-mode long distance and freight.
 

HSTEd

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Except for the fact that no one wants to build lots of DMUs forever more to run the local services.
It may have been more economic in the past to run a two car 170 twice an hour on a route but if the demand is now there for more carriages, more frequently, then the cost of running diesels increases to the point where at the moment, it's considered better to electrify and run standard EMUs. With the plans for enhanced local rail services across the country, that means a lot of electrification which won't be affected by bi-mode long distance and freight operations whatsoever.
Standard EMUs haven't been built since BR really - even the supposedly uniform Class 377s are a mess of different designs bodged to work together.
The only reason electrification is going anywhere is because of the massive surplus of Mark 3 derived EMUs. This is not going to continue forever - after all the current programme is in sufficiently dire straights that most of them will be being converted into razor blades.

After that we will be back to hard nose economics - and diesels turn out to be cheap to own and operate.
The amount of track to be electrified per EDMU replaced is enormous once the main lines are complete - and thus the lines won't be electrified is because it will be cheaper to simply run diesels for ever.
This is essentially the situation that prevailed between 1993 and 2008.
Once you've got wires on the local and suburban lines around South Wales, Bristol, Birmingham, Derby/Nottingham, Sheffield, Leeds, Teesside and Tyneside then you've done enough work to justify filling in the gaps, even if the trains running between them can run on diesel power.

But half of those places are not going to be electrified - there has been and will be no attempt to electrify the lines on Tyneside and Teeside that are not already electrified - the MML programme is dying on its feet and Birmingham-Derby will have its case obliterated by HS2.
There's a pretty compelling case to electrify the steepest sections of the rail network, like the Devon Banks, so that freight can be electrically hauled and run significantly more efficiently, so there's even more of the network which can justify electrification even with the existence of bi-mode long distance and freight.

Electrically hauled freight has been dying, slowly and painfully, since BR was dismantled.
Loco changes or electrodiesels will almost certainly be more expensive than simply hauling a second 66 or 70 around, DiT until the steep section.
 

NotATrainspott

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Standard EMUs haven't been built since BR really - even the supposedly uniform Class 377s are a mess of different designs bodged to work together.
The only reason electrification is going anywhere is because of the massive surplus of Mark 3 derived EMUs. This is not going to continue forever - after all the current programme is in sufficiently dire straights that most of them will be being converted into razor blades.

Standard meaning not a bi-mode or battery-powered unit. Basically an EMU which could be tagged onto whatever order is going, like how the TransPennine 350s were the option on the London Midland order or the new Gatwick Express 387s are on the normal 387 order. Your interpretation of my use of the word is bizarre.

After that we will be back to hard nose economics - and diesels turn out to be cheap to own and operate.
The amount of track to be electrified per EDMU replaced is enormous once the main lines are complete - and thus the lines won't be electrified is because it will be cheaper to simply run diesels for ever.
This is essentially the situation that prevailed between 1993 and 2008.

But half of those places are not going to be electrified - there has been and will be no attempt to electrify the lines on Tyneside and Teeside that are not already electrified - the MML programme is dying on its feet and Birmingham-Derby will have its case obliterated by HS2.

You seem to have completely missed the point here. Passenger numbers are growing across the entire network and rail travel is becoming more and more important across city regions the length and breadth of the country. When passenger numbers grow so strongly, it doesn't matter whether there's a current surplus of Mk3 EMUs or not, as the economics of electrification improve and the economics of not electrifying get worse. The economics of electrifying a line seeing two 2-car Class 170s every hour aren't going to be very good, since there's such a high capital cost and the marginal cost of running them as diesel services is low. When that line starts seeing four 4-car or 6-car DMUs an hour to cope with increased demand, along with additional station calls to serve new markets, the economics of electrification improve dramatically. The capital cost of electrification is the same, but the costs are spread across a much larger passenger market and the marginal cost of running those extra services on electric power is much reduced. The marginal cost of running them as diesel services increases, since every extra carriage has another diesel engine rumbling away and every extra station call means another wasteful deceleration and acceleration taking more time than an electric equivalent would.

The very first services to be electrified were local services because the economic case for doing so is so slam-dunk. The intensity of these local services is only going to go up, and there's no real alternative to running these on proper electric power rather than going for bi-mode or battery power. Both these options make sense for short extensions of electrified services onto non-electrified lines, but the sorts of services I'm talking about are ones which don't do this. There's no point running a bi-mode train on the Tees Valley Line since it only touches the wires at Darlington. There is a huge demand for such improved local services all across the country, especially since they are necessary now for housing developments as road networks are mostly at capacity.

Electrically hauled freight has been dying, slowly and painfully, since BR was dismantled.
Loco changes or electrodiesels will almost certainly be more expensive than simply hauling a second 66 or 70 around, DiT until the steep section.

Electrically hauled freight makes sense when there's enough of a network to make entire freight flows electric. Would total electrification be justified by freight flows alone? No. What I'm arguing is that the need for electric local services makes a case for more electric long distance services using the wires which fill the gaps between stations (remember, electric local services means you have to electrify the complicated bits in and around the major stations, where most of the expensive bridges and signalling works need done). Once the core mainline network has been electrified, the case for wiring the final miles to freight terminals becomes reasonable since it is more economical to run an electric locomotive than a 66 on a long distance freight service, especially on a busy line where the increased performance of an electric makes pathing easier.
 
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Philip Phlopp

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Standard EMUs haven't been built since BR really - even the supposedly uniform Class 377s are a mess of different designs bodged to work together.
The only reason electrification is going anywhere is because of the massive surplus of Mark 3 derived EMUs. This is not going to continue forever - after all the current programme is in sufficiently dire straights that most of them will be being converted into razor blades.

After that we will be back to hard nose economics - and diesels turn out to be cheap to own and operate.
The amount of track to be electrified per EDMU replaced is enormous once the main lines are complete - and thus the lines won't be electrified is because it will be cheaper to simply run diesels for ever.
This is essentially the situation that prevailed between 1993 and 2008.

Could I trouble you for some figures to back up this argument before going any further ?

Please include your figures that confirm purchase and operation costs for DMUs including 'hidden' costs such as fuel distribution, bunding and pollution control measures.

I also don't see the relevance of your comment about the Class 377s - British Rail created several versions of the Mk.3 EMU family with different traction motors and control equipment, but they're all broadly compatible with each other. Diesel units under British Rail didn't fare quite so well, and under the private railway have been grossly mismanaged.
 

jimm

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Could I trouble you for some figures to back up this argument before going any further ?

Please include your figures that confirm purchase and operation costs for DMUs including 'hidden' costs such as fuel distribution, bunding and pollution control measures.

I also don't see the relevance of your comment about the Class 377s - British Rail created several versions of the Mk.3 EMU family with different traction motors and control equipment, but they're all broadly compatible with each other. Diesel units under British Rail didn't fare quite so well, and under the private railway have been grossly mismanaged.

Doubt you'll get any figures, this is just a repetition/variation of one of HSTEd's favourite hobbyhorses about IEPs, going back over several years, which basically boils down to something along the lines of having bi-modes is the end for electrification schemes.
 

47802

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Alstom, Siemens and Bombardier might disagree with that.
At some point these things have to go to open tender.
XC and MML can't claim compatibility with what they've got.
But I agree Hitachi has the product just now.
Not that it is in service yet.

On the current proposed franchise schedule for XC it will require a Direct Award or return to DOR and the letting of the new franchise is so close to the 2020 deadline that the decision on HST's is going to have to be made in that Direct Award period, no doubt with some involvement by the Dft. On that basis I doubt It would be a big order so that would put Hitachi in the driving seat if it isn't already, unless there was interest in moving some voyagers to current 170 workings and freeing up some 170's for use elsewhere. Alternatively they could just go for making the HST's compliant given there aren't many and then leaving it to the franchise bidders to propose longer term solutions.

I would have thought there ought to be fairly strong case for some Bi-modes on XC as even with present electrification there are significant sections which could go electric, but on the other hand I don't really see voyagers being moved off XC as much as some people might like that idea.

With the MML there is more time but even that is pushing it a bit for potential new train delivery so maybe the Dft will make the decision on both and come up with a joint order, or just HST compliance for both.
 
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Emblematic

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The window for ordering replacement stock to avoid conversion work for PRM-TSI is already tight. The GW AT300 order will be delivered in the second half of 2018, and that is only being met by manufacture at Kansai rather than Newton Aycliffe. We would really need to see orders being placed this year to be certain of delivery and entry to service before the 2020 cutoff.
XC would look to be a reasonable fit for a follow-on AT300 order; their small requirement would be hard to meet with a stand-alone order, but they could also look to follow on the Scotrail HST conversion programme. The fit for MML is less obvious, whichever way the electrification decision goes, and the possible availability of Mk4 stock may give a low-cost alternative to Mk3 rebuilds.
 

455driver

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Isn't it 'fumny' how it was shouted from the rooftops about the jobs on Britain this would create etc, many of us said it was all hot air and about the only 'manufacturing' that would be done in this Country was bolting on the handrails, and now it has been announced that the initial small order will be built in Britain but the main order will be built in Japan.
Gosh I hate being right! ;) :lol:
 
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Haydn1971

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When that line starts seeing four 4-car or 6-car DMUs an hour to cope with increased demand, along with additional station calls to serve new markets, the economics of electrification improve dramatically.


HSTEd makes a very valid point, the only reason we were seeing wires going up was to make use of EMU cascades. Once the DfT realised that they had firstly destroyed the wiring industry that badly in the two decades earlier through lack of work, and secondly that there are only so many hours in the dark between the last train and first to do wiring work, the penny dropped and we are were we are now.

There are only so many cascaded EMU's created by the "next gen" Class 345/700/707 deliveries and some of these EMU's have a limited life span moving forward. Throwing up wires now and using end of life stock that isn't really that suitable for the services they will deliver, so need funds for reconfiguration, and then needing replacing with new EMU's in 10-15 years could well be more costly in the medium term than ordering a new flexible fleet of DMU's now that have 30-35 years life in them and deliver exactly is needed by customers and operators. Taking the long term view, wires is the way to go, but without the resource to put the wires up, new DMU's are the way to go.

The lack of new DMU's has been more about lack of new orders, rather than any technological problem that's been so popularised in these forums, issue an order for 120 carriages and the problem over fitting euro xx gear under a carriage will simply disappear. I really like the Bi-mode concept, I see bi-mode commuter and regional units are the stop gap to fill the resourcing issues that will continue onwards for the next couple of decades.

The 120 carriage order for Northern is just the start - once the DfT have got their heads around the wiring resourcing and programming issues moving forward and become realistic about the future, I'd put money on a big order of bi-mode commuter/regional units that will finally put the ageing 14x & 15x fleets to bed and ultimately see the 165/166 fleets retired within the next decade.
 

sprinterguy

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Isn't it 'fumny' how it was shouted from the rooftops about the jobs on Britain this would create etc, many of us said it was all hot air and about the only 'manufacturing' that would be done in this Country was bolting on the handrails, and now it has been announced that the initial small order will be built in Britain but the main order will be built in Japan.
Gosh I hate being right! ;) :lol:
Although the AT300s are being built in Japan, the Newton Aycliffe plant will have plenty of work on its hands building the main tranche of class 800s and 801s for the Great Western and East Coast main lines (as well as Scotrails AT200 EMUs): Three pre-production and ten production sets are initially being built in Japan but the remainder of the order will be built at Newton Aycliffe.

Building the AT300s in Japan allows them to be delivered earlier than would be the case if they were added to the queue at Newton Aycliffe.
 
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Kettledrum

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That contract info reminds me that this order avoids expensive upgrades to the HSTs.
That must reduce the likelihood of these trains being reused elsewhere, as the cost/timing of any upgrade will devolve to a new TOC (eg XC, EMT).

If this means the HSTs are re-used elsewhere, then they will still need upgrading (e.g. plug doors). The needs of XC are most acute, with problems of overcrowding and smelly trains. Even though the HSTs that are being displaced are not ideal for XC, they would be hugely welcomed by passengers if some of them do go there....of course XC don't use all their existing HSTs, so that's another issue.....
 

455driver

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Although the AT300s are being built in Japan, the Newton Aycliffe plant will have plenty of work on its hands building the main tranche of class 800s and 801s for the Great Western and East Coast main lines (as well as Scotrails AT200 EMUs): Three pre-production and ten production sets are initially being built in Japan but the remainder of the order will be built at Newton Aycliffe.

Building the AT300s in Japan allows them to be delivered earlier than would be the case if they were added to the queue at Newton Aycliffe.

Which is the same as I wrote with a bit of 'spin" about getting the trains into service quicker to make it sound like a positive thing. Whereas what it means is the Government have sat on their hands until the last possible minute and are now going to pay through the nose (with our money) to try and fix the delay.

You can be as optimistic as you like, I will stick to being a pessimistic old git!;)
 

Kettledrum

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XC would look to be a reasonable fit for a follow-on AT300 order; their small requirement would be hard to meet with a stand-alone order, but they could also look to follow on the Scotrail HST conversion programme. The fit for MML is less obvious, whichever way the electrification decision goes, and the possible availability of Mk4 stock may give a low-cost alternative to Mk3 rebuilds.

How small would a XC follow on order be? Very small if you just replaced the existing HST's, but the other XC stock is too short and would need to be reformed, so a follow on XC order could be a bit like a piece of string.
 

sprinterguy

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Which is the same as I wrote with a bit of 'spin" about getting the trains into service quicker to make it sound like a positive thing. Whereas what it means is the Government have sat on their hands until the last possible minute and are now going to pay through the nose (with our money) to try and fix the delay.

You can be as optimistic as you like, I will stick to being a pessimistic old git!;)
You stated that "the main order" would be built in Japan, though, and while it's true that these 29 trains are being built in Japan, no less than 866 carriages will be built, well, assembled from a kit of parts admittedly, at Newton Aycliffe.
 

Haydn1971

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How small would a XC follow on order be? Very small if you just replaced the existing HST's, but the other XC stock is too short and would need to be reformed, so a follow on XC order could be a bit like a piece of string.


Reform the 220/221 fleet into 90/100mph regional diesels - derate the power, refurb inside to get shut of the passenger crash space in the end carriages (not required in 100mph units), bin the huge baggage spaces, ditch first, reconfigure to provide more table seats and replace the XC/VT Voyager fleets with a modern fleet of bi-mode units from whoever gives the best deal and ensure that joining/splitting can be done rapidly to ensure double formed units are the norm in the core routes through the peaks.
 

455driver

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You stated that "the main order" would be built in Japan, though, and while it's true that these 29 trains are being built in Japan, no less than 866 carriages will be built, well, assembled from a kit of parts admittedly, at Newton Aycliffe.
So none will actually be 'built' in this Country in the true sense of the word, they will merely be stuck together like an Airfix kit with all the bits being built in Japan and shipped across to Newton Aycliffe.
Not exactly great for British jobs is it where the main employment is in the outside companies supplying all the parts, something which won't be happening at all in this case.
 
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jimm

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HSTEd makes a very valid point, the only reason we were seeing wires going up was to make use of EMU cascades.

Really, so the need to replace HSTs on the GWML had nothing to do with it then?

The lack of new DMU's has been more about lack of new orders, rather than any technological problem that's been so popularised in these forums, issue an order for 120 carriages and the problem over fitting euro xx gear under a carriage will simply disappear. I really like the Bi-mode concept, I see bi-mode commuter and regional units are the stop gap to fill the resourcing issues that will continue onwards for the next couple of decades.

Another point that I, and others, have kept on making in these forums whenever new dmus get a mention is that no one is going to give the leasing companies the money to build them unless they know that they are going to be working long enough to pay for themselves and deliver a return on the initial investment. There will obviously be a long-term life for a limited number of dmus in places where wiring just isn't cost-effective but that's just the point, a limited number - which is what the 120 vehicles for Northern looks like to me.

Bi-modes are clearly going to have a role to play but hopefully, once someone has got a grip on electrification, we may not need that many of them anyway - there are already indications that TPE wiring is going to be reactivated at some point before the end of the year anyway, even if the finish date is later than initially hoped and a 185 cascade delayed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
So none will actually be 'built' in this Country in the true sense of the word, they will merely be stuck together like an Airfix kit with all the bits being built in Japan and shipped across to Newton Aycliffe.
Not exactly great for British jobs is it where the main employment is in the outside companies supplying all the parts, something which won't be happening at all in this case.

No, all the bits will not be built in Japan, but don't let the facts get in the way of your rant. A lot of the bits will have to be shipped to Japan and then back again.

See these two diagrams

http://www.hitachirail-eu.com/medialibrary/2015/03/18/81ca9b2b/Class 800 Suppliers - UK.pdf

http://www.hitachirail-eu.com/medialibrary/2015/03/18/360e66ec/Class 800 Suppliers - European.pdf
 
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sprinterguy

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So none will actually be 'built' in this Country in the true sense of the word, they will merely be stuck together like an Airfix kit with all the bits being built in Japan and shipped across to Newton Aycliffe.
Not exactly great for British jobs is it where the main employment is in the outside companies supplying all the parts, something which won't be happening at all in this case.
Not much different to how things are done at Bombardier in Derby, then, and I can't imagine that the 700 people being employed by Hitachi at Newton Aycliffe are complaining about the nature of their work: It's brought a valuable source of employment to an area of the country that has suffered from high levels of unemployment for many years.

Plus, various bits of the AT300 trains are being manufactured in the UK, if not the obvious structural components:
http://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/write/MediaUploads/iep-hitachi.jpg
 

NotATrainspott

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HSTEd makes a very valid point, the only reason we were seeing wires going up was to make use of EMU cascades. Once the DfT realised that they had firstly destroyed the wiring industry that badly in the two decades earlier through lack of work, and secondly that there are only so many hours in the dark between the last train and first to do wiring work, the penny dropped and we are were we are now.

There are only so many cascaded EMU's created by the "next gen" Class 345/700/707 deliveries and some of these EMU's have a limited life span moving forward. Throwing up wires now and using end of life stock that isn't really that suitable for the services they will deliver, so need funds for reconfiguration, and then needing replacing with new EMU's in 10-15 years could well be more costly in the medium term than ordering a new flexible fleet of DMU's now that have 30-35 years life in them and deliver exactly is needed by customers and operators. Taking the long term view, wires is the way to go, but without the resource to put the wires up, new DMU's are the way to go.

The lack of new DMU's has been more about lack of new orders, rather than any technological problem that's been so popularised in these forums, issue an order for 120 carriages and the problem over fitting euro xx gear under a carriage will simply disappear. I really like the Bi-mode concept, I see bi-mode commuter and regional units are the stop gap to fill the resourcing issues that will continue onwards for the next couple of decades.

The 120 carriage order for Northern is just the start - once the DfT have got their heads around the wiring resourcing and programming issues moving forward and become realistic about the future, I'd put money on a big order of bi-mode commuter/regional units that will finally put the ageing 14x & 15x fleets to bed and ultimately see the 165/166 fleets retired within the next decade.

A valid point maybe but you've again completely missed the point of my argument. It's not economical for Northern or TransPennine Express or whoever else to run diesel trains as intensively as they're going to need to run them in future. If TP North is going to have to be run with 6tph of 6 to 8 carriage trains at 100mph with hill-climbing performance, that means huge running costs over the life of the trains which electrics wouldn't need. If the upfront capital cost of electrification can be paid back with efficiency savings faster, it's far more likely to happen quickly.
 

455driver

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Not much different to how things are done at Bombardier in Derby, then, and I can't imagine that the 700 people being employed by Hitachi at Newton Aycliffe are complaining about the nature of their work: It's brought a valuable source of employment to an area of the country that has suffered from high levels of unemployment for many years.

Plus, various bits of the AT300 trains are being manufactured in the UK, if not the obvious structural components:
http://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/write/MediaUploads/iep-hitachi.jpg

What happens to those 700 people once these orders are complete?
Either they will all be made redundant or Hitachi will use them as political pawns to get another (expensive) contract out of our moronic government.
 

Haydn1971

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Really, so the need to replace HSTs on the GWML had nothing to do with it then?

GWML was well underway before the MML & TPE announcements, which were both designed to make use of 100's of cascades that came out of the introduction of the 345/700 fleets.

Another point that I, and others, have kept on making in these forums whenever new dmus get a mention is that no one is going to give the leasing companies the money to build them unless they know that they are going to be working long enough to pay for themselves and deliver a return on the initial investment. There will obviously be a long-term life for a limited number of dmus in places where wiring just isn't cost-effective but that's just the point, a limited number - which is what the 120 vehicles for Northern looks like to me.


120 DMU's yes, bi-modes no... I'd suspect that some back room discussions have revealed the 120 carriage order would be worthwhile and deliverable quickly - I doubt anyone at the DfT has got their head around the farce that we are in right now in that we need newer/more trains, but haven't the infrastructure to buy EMU's.

Bi-modes are clearly going to have a role to play but hopefully, once someone has got a grip on electrification, we may not need that many of them anyway - there are already indications that TPE wiring is going to be reactivated at some point before the end of the year anyway, even if the finish date is later than initially hoped and a 185 cascade delayed.


Indications from where ? All indications are towards electrification being dropped in preference to doing HS3
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A valid point maybe but you've again completely missed the point of my argument. It's not economical for Northern or TransPennine Express or whoever else to run diesel trains as intensively as they're going to need to run them in future. If TP North is going to have to be run with 6tph of 6 to 8 carriage trains at 100mph with hill-climbing performance, that means huge running costs over the life of the trains which electrics wouldn't need. If the upfront capital cost of electrification can be paid back with efficiency savings faster, it's far more likely to happen quickly.


TP North isn't the solution - 6x 8 car units is all that electrification will offer, that is enough in the short term, but not the medium to long term, 6x 8 car units taking 50 minutes to travel 40 miles is not good enough, which is why HS3 will ultimately win out as the preferred solution for cross Pennine services.
 

Carntyne

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Was there not a commitment to bring full manufacturing to Newton Aycliffe depending on the amount of orders Hitachi received. (tech for stir-welding was mentioned)
 

455driver

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Was there not a commitment to bring full manufacturing to Newton Aycliffe depending on the amount of orders Hitachi received. (tech for stir-welding was mentioned)

There was but that was just hot air to make it sound like GBuk was getting a better deal than was actually the case.
I would put money on the fact that Hitachi had no intention of increasing the assembly work that would be done in the UK, and just said whatever was needed to get the order, once the order is signed there is nothing anyone can do about it because I am sure Hitachi would have made sure the contract gave them enough leeway to wiggle out of anything they didn't want to do.
 
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