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Nationalisation - how does it benefit the passenger?

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ChiefPlanner

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Hmm - ever tried dealing rationally with local political (transport) bodies ?

Railways are best planned as a National - if not regional entity.
 
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yorksrob

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Hmm - ever tried dealing rationally with local political (transport) bodies ?

Railways are best planned as a National - if not regional entity.

To be fair, without the PTE's, there wouldn't be a railway worth speaking of around here.
 

tbtc

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Perhaps a London Buses - style, one basic 'National Rail' livery, though all private operators on tenders with a realistic fare structure could be a possibility - I know it's a simplistic view or idea but realistically getting rid of the TOC's would be disastrous.

For instance Arriva operate some of London buses in the same plain red livery (and small company logo) as Abellio London do - both operators (plus 9 more IIRC) are all under the same fare structure

Trains operate under the same fare structure too - tickets are available across all operators (TOCs and Open Access) on valid routes - that's something that I don't think we could have taken for granted when railways were privatised.

There are operator specific fares, sure, but there are always "inter-available" tickets.

A "realistic fare structure" sounds great, but I don't know how you'd introduce one, given that there are bound to be a lot of "losers".

Look at the recent "why are fares from Leicester to London not the same as from Birmingham to London" thread on here. If you decide that all places fifty miles from London ought to have the same prices of tickets (and identical "peak" periods/ day return options/ advanced ticketing) then that is going to mean some big hikes in prices (or restrictions)...

...unless you've found the money to bring everything down to the lowest fare (and shortest "peak" periods etc).

A uniform livery (or varying regional ones) would save painting trains into a variety of different colours every few years a franchise changes.

I really don't think we waste as much money on paint jobs as enthusiasts make out.

Given that a franchise lasts maybe seven/ ten/ fifteen years...

...and a train (or lamp post or foot bridge) needs repainting every few years anyway...

...I don't have a problem. To use the ScotRail example, there are still units running around in "First" colour schemes, seven years after the new livery was announced (http://www.scotsman.com/news/all-scotland-s-trains-to-get-saltire-livery-1-1083147) - First and Abellio having taken the reasonable decision not to repaint everything immediately and for units to wait until their scheduled maintenance until they get repainted.

Units now in the "Saltire" livery will still need repainting (or "revinyling", to be more accurate) every few years anyway - even if it's just a direct replacement of the current colour scheme - it's not a magic bullet.

(trouble is that we then get enthusiasts complaining about why some unit is still running around in the livery of a previous operator a long time after it was moved!)

I agree with both your points, but I'd like to see the investment, both for infrastructure and for operations, for regional services being dealt with at a regional level, at is now in various European countries. There is far too much evidence that Whitehall does not know best, despite its love for centralising control

I'd like to agree with you (as a Scot living in Yorkshire, I certainly don't think that Westminster is the answer to everything), but we don't currently have the levels of devolved governance to devolve railway decisions to.

It works fine in Scotland (qualms about the "patriotism" of putting the flag on the side of all trains aside...), but that's a pretty self contained network (a couple of VTEC/ XC services aside, most ScotRail services don't interact with other operators)...

...but the Welsh example hasn't encouraged me (e.g. finding the resources for a new service from Holyhead to Cardiff with a "Premier" coach/ catering for the great and good which stopped everywhere in north Wales but yet not at Hereford - i.e. great at looking after the "Wales" part of W&B but not very interested in the "Borders" bits)... makes me think that I don't trust devolved bodies to look after the "bigger picture".

For example, if there's a "Rail North" and a "West Midlands" equivalent (as well as a Welsh assembly) then those bodies will be interested in their areas which may well be to the detriment of journey opportunities from Wrexham to Birmingham/ Manchester because that doesn't fit neatly into their parochial focus.

Basically, devolution sounds great, but there aren't always places to devolve decisions to and there's a tendency for devolved bodies not to care about things further outside. Fine in theory, but less easy in practice.

Although I disagree with your first sentence because I think there are just too many flaws in the present franchising/ROSCO model, I agree very strongly with your second sentence.

I'm not defending the ROSCO situation, but (given that we've had many big Government investments - schools/ hospitals/ roads/ garrisons - paid for by PFI over the past twenty years - i.e. under Governments of different political colours)...

...I don't think that any future Government would find the money to buy trains directly/ cheaply from the manufacturer - governments seem addicted to buying things on the "never never" (costs a ridiculous amount more in the long term, but that's a problem for future administrations to pay for...).

Don't get me wrong, I'd rather that we stumped up the cash for things directly, but I can't believe that nationalisation would mean that the Government would give a "BR" the money to buy things properly (e.g. given it'll cost a couple of million pounds for every new coach).

Any new trains under a "public" BR will inevitably be funded through some stupidly expensive procurement (whether that's PFI, renting them from the manufacturer, paying a loan shark...). Wish it wasn't the case, but...
 

LateThanNever

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18 Jul 2013
Messages
1,029
Trains operate under the same fare structure too - tickets are available across all operators (TOCs and Open Access) on valid routes - that's something that I don't think we could have taken for granted when railways were privatised.

There are operator specific fares, sure, but there are always "inter-available" tickets.

A "realistic fare structure" sounds great, but I don't know how you'd introduce one, given that there are bound to be a lot of "losers".

Look at the recent "why are fares from Leicester to London not the same as from Birmingham to London" thread on here. If you decide that all places fifty miles from London ought to have the same prices of tickets (and identical "peak" periods/ day return options/ advanced ticketing) then that is going to mean some big hikes in prices (or restrictions)...

...unless you've found the money to bring everything down to the lowest fare (and shortest "peak" periods etc).



I really don't think we waste as much money on paint jobs as enthusiasts make out.

Given that a franchise lasts maybe seven/ ten/ fifteen years...

...and a train (or lamp post or foot bridge) needs repainting every few years anyway...

...I don't have a problem. To use the ScotRail example, there are still units running around in "First" colour schemes, seven years after the new livery was announced (http://www.scotsman.com/news/all-scotland-s-trains-to-get-saltire-livery-1-1083147) - First and Abellio having taken the reasonable decision not to repaint everything immediately and for units to wait until their scheduled maintenance until they get repainted.

Units now in the "Saltire" livery will still need repainting (or "revinyling", to be more accurate) every few years anyway - even if it's just a direct replacement of the current colour scheme - it's not a magic bullet.

(trouble is that we then get enthusiasts complaining about why some unit is still running around in the livery of a previous operator a long time after it was moved!)



I'd like to agree with you (as a Scot living in Yorkshire, I certainly don't think that Westminster is the answer to everything), but we don't currently have the levels of devolved governance to devolve railway decisions to.

It works fine in Scotland (qualms about the "patriotism" of putting the flag on the side of all trains aside...), but that's a pretty self contained network (a couple of VTEC/ XC services aside, most ScotRail services don't interact with other operators)...

...but the Welsh example hasn't encouraged me (e.g. finding the resources for a new service from Holyhead to Cardiff with a "Premier" coach/ catering for the great and good which stopped everywhere in north Wales but yet not at Hereford - i.e. great at looking after the "Wales" part of W&B but not very interested in the "Borders" bits)... makes me think that I don't trust devolved bodies to look after the "bigger picture".

For example, if there's a "Rail North" and a "West Midlands" equivalent (as well as a Welsh assembly) then those bodies will be interested in their areas which may well be to the detriment of journey opportunities from Wrexham to Birmingham/ Manchester because that doesn't fit neatly into their parochial focus.

Basically, devolution sounds great, but there aren't always places to devolve decisions to and there's a tendency for devolved bodies not to care about things further outside. Fine in theory, but less easy in practice.



I'm not defending the ROSCO situation, but (given that we've had many big Government investments - schools/ hospitals/ roads/ garrisons - paid for by PFI over the past twenty years - i.e. under Governments of different political colours)...

...I don't think that any future Government would find the money to buy trains directly/ cheaply from the manufacturer - governments seem addicted to buying things on the "never never" (costs a ridiculous amount more in the long term, but that's a problem for future administrations to pay for...).

Don't get me wrong, I'd rather that we stumped up the cash for things directly, but I can't believe that nationalisation would mean that the Government would give a "BR" the money to buy things properly (e.g. given it'll cost a couple of million pounds for every new coach).

Any new trains under a "public" BR will inevitably be funded through some stupidly expensive procurement (whether that's PFI, renting them from the manufacturer, paying a loan shark...). Wish it wasn't the case, but...

Interesting as ever.. But we now have a possible alternative funding programme which is People's Quantitive Easing - explanation in link here http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2015/08/03/chris-leslie-has-got-corbynomics-wrong/ and that could be a game changer for all capital investment and would get us out of the City of London trap!
 
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