Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[47802]

I think the line length of the Stourbridge branch is rather less than other suggested lines for the Vivarail product to so traverse.

This whole business of where they might run is completely wild speculation anyway.

We know where it will be tested and probably where it will be trialled, beyond that it needs someone to actually place an order, assuming of course it doesnt turn out to be an unreliable poor performing piece of junk.

If Northern do get some new trains and for a reasonable price then it might blow the D train out of the water, with the only use for the D train as possible stopgap for definite or very likely Electrification projects that wouldn't be completed before the 2020 deadline.

The other thing is people have tried to make estimates of how many DMU's will be needed to replace the Pacer fleet and meet future requirements? that seems to me to be somewhat difficult to quantify at present, What's the revised electrification plan from network rail going to be? How many of the eventually spare around 49 HST's sets could and will be reused and where? How many Duracell 387's on GWR will be used and how many extra turbo units might that free up? How much allowance for growth will the DFT allow on the franchises which are coming up for renewal etc etc.

 

[jimm]

Having ridden on a 142 pacer up the WCML from Preston to Arnside and recently on a D78 from Richmond to Gunnersbury, I know which one gives a better ride at low speed and it's not one of Newton Heath's finest... At 75mph (I know D78 won't reach this mark) the ride between Preston and Lancaster was very lively.

Would be happy to see a couple of D78s working Moreton-in Marsh shorts from Oxford to improve the service at Shipton & Ascott-under-Wychwood as well as the more regularly served stops. I do appreciate that this would require more redoubling south of Hanborough to provide sufficient paths.

No need to provide any 230s at all. Current plans for the Cotswold Line see a two-car Class 165 allocated to the line post-electrification, which - on the basis of IEP/AT300s covering the main hourly services and peak extras - would have all of two jobs per day, the stopper into Oxford in the morning and a late-afternoon return. While the single line can't realistically handle more peak trains, off-peak it is perfectly feasible to run more services right now for most of the day with the existing infrastructure.

That said, with the best will in the world I doubt the Wychwoods could justify more than a train every couple of hours and if you were going to go after more custom, you would have to take a long hard look at the facilities, or lack thereof, at Shipton in particular, with no proper parking and a long hike round via the mill yard and road bridge to cross the line if you have left a car earlier in the day. At Ascott custom is mostly walk-up from the village and that's not likely to change even if there were more trains.

 

[northwichcat]

No need to provide any 230s at all. Current plans for the Cotswold Line see a two-car Class 165 allocated to the line post-electrification

Plans may need to be revised if you try to get up to 75 D-Trains in to operation. It appears FGW will be taking on a D-Train to trial and more could follow if it's successful. Although, the FGW Direct Award envisaged with electrification and subsequent cascades they would be taking on they'll be able to release diesels (143s, 150/1s, 153s and 180s) without taking on 'new' diesels. Maybe FGW would be interested in replacing their 26 x 2 car 150/2s with a similar number of 3 car D-Trains - a nice capacity increase at the same time leaving 158s, 165s and 166s for diesel services where a D-Train would not be suitable?

 

[Buttsy]

No need to provide any 230s at all. Current plans for the Cotswold Line see a two-car Class 165 allocated to the line post-electrification, which - on the basis of IEP/AT300s covering the main hourly services and peak extras - would have all of two jobs per day, the stopper into Oxford in the morning and a late-afternoon return. While the single line can't realistically handle more peak trains, off-peak it is perfectly feasible to run more services right now for most of the day with the existing infrastructure.

That said, with the best will in the world I doubt the Wychwoods could justify more than a train every couple of hours and if you were going to go after more custom, you would have to take a long hard look at the facilities, or lack thereof, at Shipton in particular, with no proper parking and a long hike round via the mill yard and road bridge to cross the line if you have left a car earlier in the day. At Ascott custom is mostly walk-up from the village and that's not likely to change even if there were more trains.

I wasn't thinking of anything much more than 2-hourly (without re-connecting to Chipping Norton), but it could remove the need to stop at Shipton from the daytime trains and offer more Park & Ride opportunities from Kingham & Hanborough as I know a fair number of people from Chippy & Burford use the former and Witney the latter. The stops at Shipton & Ascott were more to to with providing a local service as the time penalty is not going to be huge if terminating at Moreton.

If a 165 is to be used, I would have thought a D78 would be a better bet as then the 165 could be used more productively elsewhere, such as the proposed half-hourly Exmouth - Paignton service.

 

[jimm]

Plans may need to be revised if you try to get up to 75 D-Trains in to operation. It appears FGW will be taking on a D-Train to trial and more could follow if it's successful. Although, the FGW Direct Award envisaged with electrification and subsequent cascades they would be taking on they'll be able to release diesels (143s, 150/1s, 153s and 180s) without taking on 'new' diesels. Maybe FGW would be interested in replacing their 26 x 2 car 150/2s with a similar number of 3 car D-Trains - a nice capacity increase at the same time leaving 158s, 165s and 166s for diesel services where a D-Train would not be suitable?

Replacing a lot of trains in the West Country, with 230s allocated en masse to a single depot is one thing, allocating a penny packet elsewhere, such as Reading, would be pretty odd, given that they would certainly not be suitable for Reading-Gatwick - the key reason for the residual Turbo fleet at Reading - and pathing a 90mph Turbo on a main line stock move to Oxford or Maidenhead will be a sight easier than something that can hit 60 with a following wind, while on the Cotswold Line, a 60mph unit would eat up precious capacity on the single line between Wolvercot and Charlbury, where the speed limit is 100mph. And the lowest speed limit between Oxford and Worcester (other than Aston Magna curve) is 75mph, so a 60mph unit would not be any more welcome even if the entire route were redoubled, both for the impact on pathing and on journey times - the Turbos run on their 90mph limit for big chunks of journeys right now, so I seriously doubt that it, or routes with similar characteristics, were ever on Vivarail's radar. West Country branches and Northern stoppers are another matter.

As for a capacity increase, a three-car 'commuter' or 'country' 230 with 2+2 seats and a toilet will accommodate 156-160 seats (including tip-ups), while a two-car GW-spec 150/2, according to Porterbrook, seats 133. So not that many more seats for quite a lot more train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It isn't as simple as that, of course - the Vivarail prototype looks quite low density, while the fGW 150s are quite high density?

 

[Camden]

Plans may need to be revised if you try to get up to 75 D-Trains in to operation. It appears FGW will be taking on a D-Train to trial and more could follow if it's successful. Although, the FGW Direct Award envisaged with electrification and subsequent cascades they would be taking on they'll be able to release diesels (143s, 150/1s, 153s and 180s) without taking on 'new' diesels. Maybe FGW would be interested in replacing their 26 x 2 car 150/2s with a similar number of 3 car D-Trains - a nice capacity increase at the same time leaving 158s, 165s and 166s for diesel services where a D-Train would not be suitable?

A D78 beats a 150 any day of the week imo.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A D78 beats a 150 any day of the week imo.

Certainly a 150/1 with the original layout where precisely no seats align with the windows.

 

[jimm]

It isn't as simple as that, of course - the Vivarail prototype looks quite low density, while the fGW 150s are quite high density?

That is the official seating capacity of the 150/2s, with 2+2 seats, referred to by jcollins, which are going to stay with FGW. I said nothing about the ex-LM 150/1s with 3+2 seats, which are all due to leave.

Are a couple of dozen extra seats in a 230, for another 14 metres of train, with more bogies, engines and drive train to maintain, good value?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are a couple of dozen extra seats in a 230, for another 14 metres of train, with more bogies, engines and drive train to maintain, good value?

They may be or they may not be. It is not that simple.

 

[northwichcat]

It isn't as simple as that, of course - the Vivarail prototype looks quite low density, while the fGW 150s are quite high density?

The ex-Wessex 150s have a low seating density by the time they have 2+2 seating and tables, it's only the ex-LM ones which have a high seating density. Although, on countless occasions there's been postings on here about how much those high density 150s are hated by people used to the Wessex Trains configuration.

I suggested 3 car D-Trains replacing 2 car 150s. Vivarail say their 3 car D-Trains can provide up to 168 seats, which is more seats than the high density ex-LM 150s provide.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And the lowest speed limit between Oxford and Worcester (other than Aston Magna curve) is 75mph, so a 60mph unit would not be any more welcome even if the entire route were redoubled, both for the impact on pathing and on journey times - the Turbos run on their 90mph limit for big chunks of journeys right now, so I seriously doubt that it, or routes with similar characteristics, were ever on Vivarail's radar.

Well yes keep the Turbos and 158s on the routes which need 75/90mph running and don't cascade Turbos to stopping services in the west, as planned.

As for a capacity increase, a three-car 'commuter' or 'country' 230 with 2+2 seats and a toilet will accommodate 156-160 seats (including tip-ups), while a two-car GW-spec 150/2, according to Porterbrook, seats 133. So not that many more seats for quite a lot more train.

Remember the ex-Wessex Trains won't have 133 seats and an accessible toilet, the Vivarail 'Country' interior will have 156 seats and an accessible toilet.

 

[Bletchleyite]

something that can hit 60 with a following wind

I think that is very unfair; the marketing of the D-train is that while it is a 60mph rather than 75mph unit (the 14x and 15x series mostly being the latter) it gets to 60mph far more quickly.

It may just be marketing, of course, but until one is fully completed and on the rails in service we have no choice but to take that at face value.

 

[jimm]

I suggested 3 car D-Trains replacing 2 car 150s. Vivarail say their 3 car D-Trains can provide up to 168 seats, which is more seats than the high density ex-LM 150s provide.

168 seats with no toilet, so no use whatever for the West Country, therefore you would need a 156 or 160-seat variant.

Well yes keep the Turbos and 158s on the routes which need 75/90mph running and don't cascade Turbos to stopping services in the west, as planned.

Well most of the Turbos are going to need to be cascaded to somewhere from the Thames Valley - and they offer better seating capacity and superior acceleration to 143s or 150s, which won't hurt around the Bristol area, and will be able to hit 90mph on routes they will be working further out from the city.

Remember the ex-Wessex Trains won't have 133 seats and an accessible toilet, the Vivarail 'Country' interior will have 156 seats and an accessible toilet.

And, as I said, lots more bits to maintain...

I think that is very unfair; the marketing of the D-train is that while it is a 60mph rather than 75mph unit (the 14x and 15x series mostly being the latter) it gets to 60mph far more quickly.

It may just be marketing, of course, but until one is fully completed and on the rails in service we have no choice but to take that at face value.

A 230 may well get to 60mph in a shorter time, but it will still be no use for the likes of the Cotswold Line, with higher speed limits all the way, or cluttering up GWML relief lines to get to and from a depot, when even the Freightliners can go faster...

 

[Bletchleyite]

A 230 may well get to 60mph in a shorter time, but it will still be no use for the likes of the Cotswold Line, with higher speed limits all the way, or cluttering up GWML relief lines to get to and from a depot, when even the Freightliners can go faster...

With the glacial acceleration of the 16x, I really don't see that that is going to be a problem.

 

[northwichcat]

And, as I said, lots more bits to maintain...

Well if the West Country are happy with 40m trains with seats removed to allow for accessibility improvements and don't want 55m trains which would have additional seats and accessibility improvements.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It may just be marketing, of course, but until one is fully completed and on the rails in service we have no choice but to take that at face value.

I am somewhat reminded of the disciple of Jesus who would not believe it was Jesus after the crucifixion until he could see the wounds.

 

[northwichcat]

All these people complaining about subsided services not deserving new trains and yet over in Iran they have introduced brand new trains where anyone can travel for free for the first 3 months of service: http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/news/asia/single-view/view/tabriz-metro-opens.html

 

[Domh245]

All these people complaining about subsided services not deserving new trains and yet over in Iran they have introduced brand new trains where anyone can travel for free for the first 3 months of service: http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/news/asia/single-view/view/tabriz-metro-opens.html

1) It is an entirely brand new system.
2) It is a trial of said system serving 5 stations.

To me, it sounds like they are just trying to make people aware of it and encourage it's use through free rides around the shortened system, that way, when it opens, there is already an established customer base of sorts. They might also be using the trial to validate their usage estimates so that they can finalise ticket costs.

 

[Class377/5]

All these people complaining about subsided services not deserving new trains and yet over in Iran they have introduced brand new trains where anyone can travel for free for the first 3 months of service: http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/news/asia/single-view/view/tabriz-metro-opens.html

Political decisions in two countries are not a fair way of comparing services in the UK. After all you can ony plan to current situation not flights of fancy.

 

[route:oxford]

I am somewhat reminded of the disciple of Jesus who would not believe it was Jesus after the crucifixion until he could see the wounds.

Oh goodness. Now we are bringing religion into discussions of this unit..

So Paul. Do you think Jesus hates the D78s?

What about the other faiths?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Is 230 what their TOPS class number will be?

 

[northwichcat]

1) It is an entirely brand new system.
2) It is a trial of said system serving 5 stations.

To me, it sounds like they are just trying to make people aware of it and encourage it's use through free rides around the shortened system, that way, when it opens, there is already an established customer base of sorts. They might also be using the trial to validate their usage estimates so that they can finalise ticket costs.

Political decisions in two countries are not a fair way of comparing services in the UK. After all you can ony plan to current situation not flights of fancy.

I was trying to provide an alternative view as this thread is just going around in the usual circle - Northerners wanting new trains and Southerners telling them they can't have them and have to make do with something cascaded or recycled.

 

[D365]

Is 230 what their TOPS class number will be?

Yes, Class 230 has been confirmed for a while. And it seems to rather make sense.

 

[northwichcat]

Is 230 what their TOPS class number will be?

Yes. Two different companies looked at rebuilding D-Trains as mainline trains and Vivarail reserved 230 and the other reserved 278 but Vivarail secured the trains so it'll be 230.

 

[yorksrob]

Of course it wouldn't and Id be happy for that to happen. However, is there anyone out there who has got the money and foresight to do this? Vivarail is a private enterprise risking its own money - why hasn't anyone put their head above the parapet for the 442s?Costs? Practical? More work to widen the doors to provide access proving too much of a problem?

I do wonder why Vivarail chose the underground trains rather than the 442's. I think you could probably reuse more of the existing interiors for a start.

As for the door width, I don't think it's unduly narrow on any of the Mk2 or Mk3 stock, so the only issue would be fitting plug doors for those carriages that don't have them.

 

[northwichcat]

Oh goodness. Now we are bringing religion into discussions of this unit..

So Paul. Do you think Jesus hates the D78s?

What about the other faiths?

Yes the D-Train is in the Bible

For amazement had seized him and all his companions because of the catch of fish which they had taken; and so also were James and John, sons of Zebedee, who were partners with Simon. And Jesus said to Simon, "Do not fear, from now on you will be catching men." When they had brought their boats to land, they left everything and followed him, where he led them to an old Underground train, which they boarded and to their utter amazement it moved forward despite the absence of a live rail.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Oh goodness. Now we are bringing religion into discussions of this unit..

Have the courtesy to read the posting that I made response to, where I used a comparison.

The rest of your posting is not worthy of comment.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The D-Train is in the Bible

Of all the posts that show a need for RUK Forums to have a "like" button, this one takes the cake...

 

[3141]

I do wonder why Vivarail chose the underground trains rather than the 442's. I think you could probably reuse more of the existing interiors for a start.

As for the door width, I don't think it's unduly narrow on any of the Mk2 or Mk3 stock, so the only issue would be fitting plug doors for those carriages that don't have them.

Lighter weight, aluminium therefore less corrosion, recently-replaced bogies, shorter therefore can be used more widely, more doors more evenly spaced, more D stock available than 442s......

 

[yorksrob]

Lighter weight, aluminium therefore less corrosion, recently-replaced bogies, shorter therefore can be used more widely, more doors more evenly spaced, more D stock available than 442s......

In which case, one wonders why they're being replaced on the District line now !

Are they of monocoque construction ?