Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[yorksrob]

There are also already a load of Mk3-based "DEMUs". They're called HSTs, and they are going to get tarted up and deployed on Scottish InterCity services for many years to come.

Having 9 carriages and 2 power cars makes the HST's (much as I love them) not really suitable for most of our routes. I don't think that Scottish Inter City services will by any means keep all of them occupied, and that's without considering all the Mk 3's that aren't in HST's and will be unoccupied.

As for our 442's, I know it's been done to death, but would converting them be any more peculiar than converting an underground train ?

156s are not suitable for commuter services, having an end-doored layout. They are fine for branch lines and for regional expresses, but that is not the only requirement for rolling stock for the North.

I think that the end door thing is very much overstated.

As someone who uses busy trains in the North a lot, I end up getting on and off a lot of very crowded 156's, 153's, 155's and 144's/142's (I know the pacer carriages are shorter, but there's only one door for both the inner carriage ends, so these are nearer to the end door layout of a full length carriage than suburban layout). I don't think the difference in unloading between those and a 150 (the only diesel units in the Northern area with a suburban door layout) is that great.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As for our 442's, I know it's been done to death, but would converting them be any more peculiar than converting an underground train ?

The ageing ex-REP traction equipment and older steel bodyshells may present a challenge, but in principle I don't see why it would.

I think that the end door thing is very much overstated.

Thus spake the person who never saw the chronically overcrowded 0749 Liverpool to Norwich attempting to unload at Manchester Oxford Road and taking 10 minutes to do so!

 

[yorksrob]

I suppose we have been talking about these as stopgaps mainly in the expectation that, eventually, the long awaited electrification programme and resultant cascades will eliminate them alongside most of the ageing DMU fleet, and the rest will be replaced as they expire by new build (possibly with alternative self-powered technology by then).

The way things are going, though, you may have a point. Delayed electrification projects may get delayed further or cancelled, while increasing demand keeps raising pressure to provide new capacity. So these might end up lasting longer than 10 years - which is OK provided they are up to it. If those who make the decisions were convinced this would happen, a different solution might be more appropriate - but in the absence of that, these might be as good as we get.

My question about stopgaps was a genuine one to see if anyone could think of any examples. Maybe a subject for another thread, though, this one is long enough!

Indeed.

Of course, the other alternative would be to build brand new DEMU's with a view to stripping out the engine compartment and converting them to electric when the juice comes. (This was also tried as a stop gap with the 205's, however, as we know they remained DEMU's for the next 50 years, to be replaced by DMU's !).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The ageing ex-REP traction equipment and older steel bodyshells may present a challenge, but in principle I don't see why it would.



Thus spake the person who never saw the chronically overcrowded 0749 Liverpool to Norwich attempting to unload at Manchester Oxford Road and taking 10 minutes to do so!

Ah, but that's a long distance regional service anyway, so not suitable for mid saloon doors !

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of course, the other alternative would be to build brand new DEMU's with a view to stripping out the engine compartment and converting them to electric when the juice comes. (This was also tried as a stop gap with the 205's, however, as we know they remained DEMU's for the next 50 years, to be replaced by DMU's !).

I am very interested to see what Stadler's offering to the table will be. The GTW is basically coaches with a mini locomotive pushing and pulling, all in a slick articulated package and would be ideal for this approach.

Ah, but that's a long distance regional service anyway, so not suitable for mid saloon doors !

It's a string of regional expresses joined together for operational convenience and passenger convenience, and the Class 170s were just about perfectly suited to it (and 185s aren't bad) - IC standard seating but regional door layout.

 

[yorksrob]

I am very interested to see what Stadler's offering to the table will be. The GTW is basically coaches with a mini locomotive pushing and pulling, all in a slick articulated package and would be ideal for this approach.

I've not heard of it so I await with interest.

It's a string of regional expresses joined together for operational convenience and passenger convenience, and the Class 170s were just about perfectly suited to it (and 185s aren't bad) - IC standard seating but regional door layout.

It's a tricky one, given that they tend to have a mix of long and shorter distance passengers.

I suppose at least with our less prestigious regional trains, we only get the big empty-out at the end of the line during turn-around, rather than half way along the line.

 

[HSTEd]

Southern Region.......

ACTIVATE!

All rolling stock will be rebuilt into multiple units.

ALL STOCK!

 

[Haydn1971]

I suppose at least with our less prestigious regional trains, we only get the big empty-out at the end of the line during turn-around, rather than half way along the line.

Hmm... Sometimes - Liverpool-Norwich has big passenger changes at Manchester and Sheffield, similarly Leeds-Nottingham has big changes at Wakefield, Barnsley and mostly Sheffield

 

[yorksrob]

Southern Region.......

ACTIVATE!

All rolling stock will be rebuilt into multiple units.

ALL STOCK!

They used to think it was a battle between the LNER and LMR.

Little did they know that it was the Southern that would take over the world !
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Hmm... Sometimes - Liverpool-Norwich has big passenger changes at Manchester and Sheffield, similarly Leeds-Nottingham has big changes at Wakefield, Barnsley and mostly Sheffield

I had Liverpool - Norwich down as one of the more prestigious regional services !

 

[NorthernSpirit]

What appeals to me in particular is the possibility that, if they do really turn out to be a dog's dinner, it won't be at the taxpayer's expense. Unless, of course, the clever marketers at Vivarail manage to flog them to someone anyway, of course!

If it flops then Vivarail could always sell them to Cuba so that they can replace their steam stock.

 

[gazthomas]

If it flops then Vivarail could always sell them to Cuba so that they can replace their steam stock.

Or Iran now that we're best mates again.

 

[Darren R]

Or Iran now that we're best mates again.

Why are we best mates with Iran again? Have they finally forgiven us for selling them our old Pacers then?

 

[Philip C]

Errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrm

http://www.hastingsobserver.co.uk/news/business/proposed-recycled-trains-to-help-overcrowded-east-sussex-service-1-6911736

This has already surfaced at posting #1864 on this thread and subsequent postings #1868, #1870, #1871, #1891 and #1902. I rest my case that this is a silly and non-implementable proposal, but will have enabled a couple of gullible persons (one an MP) to drink some of Herr Shooter's Plonk.

 

[HSTEd]

They used to think it was a battle between the LNER and LMR.

Little did they know that it was the Southern that would take over the world !

Now I just need to work out how to get powered bogies into a Mark 3.

Would a pair of 750hp engines and a traction converter for four-axles fit into a relatively small part of the Mark 3 compartment, for example into a TGS?

Of course we could get one new-build four-powered-axle vehicle to splice into a 4-car formation

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

This has already surfaced at posting #1864 on this thread and subsequent postings #1868, #1870, #1871, #1891 and #1902. I rest my case that this is a silly and non-implementable proposal, but will have enabled a couple of gullible persons (one an MP) to drink some of Herr Shooter's Plonk.

What I viewed as somewhat amusing was the strategically placed group of six men in the newspaper image which effectively hid from view the side image of the unit.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Now I just need to work out how to get powered bogies into a Mark 3.

Somebody already did.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/2407_at_Moreton,_Dorset.JPG

 

[HSTEd]

Somebody already did.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/2407_at_Moreton,_Dorset.JPG

As I recall 442 Motor Vehicles are not standard sets however.

 

[JaJaWa]

Worth noting there that there doesn't appear to be much meaningful done to the interior of this one. If you look, there's even still a District Line stations strip stuck on.

That's definitely not a District line map!

 

[Clip]

Having 9 carriages and 2 power cars makes the HST's (much as I love them) not really suitable for most of our routes. I don't think that Scottish Inter City services will by any means keep all of them occupied, and that's without considering all the Mk 3's that aren't in HST's and will be unoccupied.

As for our 442's, I know it's been done to death, but would converting them be any more peculiar than converting an underground train ?

.

Of course it wouldn't and Id be happy for that to happen. However, is there anyone out there who has got the money and foresight to do this? Vivarail is a private enterprise risking its own money - why hasn't anyone put their head above the parapet for the 442s?Costs? Practical? More work to widen the doors to provide access proving too much of a problem?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Of course it wouldn't and Id be happy for that to happen. However, is there anyone out there who has got the money and foresight to do this? Vivarail is a private enterprise risking its own money - why hasn't anyone put their head above the parapet for the 442s?Costs? Practical? More work to widen the doors to provide access proving too much of a problem?

I would venture the opinion, for what it is worth, that private equity backing is not normally forthcoming for speculative projects.

 

[HSTEd]

One new carriage for about £2m - we could get economies of scale due to the shear number of available mark 3s.
Then fitting a cab into one mark 3 per set and toilet retention tanks - disability can be handled by fitting the new vehicle with the trains disabled facility.

How many mark 3s are available, 3 to a set.

 

[northwichcat]

Whereas, conversely, you appear to reject anything that isn't brand new regardless of the economics of the situation

If you check my previous posts in this thread I said I'd be happy getting 170s released by Scotrail on my local line.

 

[eastwestdivide]

Wake me up when there's some more news. The signal to noise ratio on this thread is deteriorating badly.

 

[northwichcat]

Haven't visited this thread for a while and I'm glad the Mid Cheshire line has been mentioned as I was worried it had been mothballed along with a quick mention about Paul's residence in an overrated part of Cheshire and Class 323s.... Moving along...

Apologies if asked but any word on when these green beautiful things are due out on mainline for testing, I'm very intrigued on the ride quality at 60mph!

I didn't actually specifically mention it was be the Mid-Cheshire line the points I made are with regards to line speed are almost as relevant to the Buxton line, while the point I made about negative effects to splitting up services is just as relevant to the Southport line.

With regards to your point about ride quality it's worth remembering a Pacer travelling at 75mph on good track provides a reasonable ride quality (provided nothing goes past it at speed) whereas travelling at 50mph over a rural section where there are farmer's crossings provides a bumpy ride. With D-Trains I imagine the ride quality will also depend on the track as well as the speed.

 

[Buttsy]

Having ridden on a 142 pacer up the WCML from Preston to Arnside and recently on a D78 from Richmond to Gunnersbury, I know which one gives a better ride at low speed and it's not one of Newton Heath's finest... At 75mph (I know D78 won't reach this mark) the ride between Preston and Lancaster was very lively.

Would be happy to see a couple of D78s working Moreton-in Marsh shorts from Oxford to improve the service at Shipton & Ascott-under-Wychwood as well as the more regularly served stops. I do appreciate that this would require more redoubling south of Hanborough to provide sufficient paths.

 

[47802]

Wake me up when there's some more news. The signal to noise ratio on this thread is deteriorating badly.

Indeed its just generating into nonsense.

As far as Northern goes from the ITT you would expect some new trains plus a refurb of existing sprinters and a cascade of Sprinters/170's from elsewhere.

I think that would be acceptable to most people, and unless the ITT gets adjusted would seem the most likely outcome.

Now i'm not stupid enough to think that there is no possibility that some D trains will end up on Northern or any other parts of the Network but lets just wait and see, we don't even know if this train is going to work as well as Vivarail claim as yet.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Now i'm not stupid enough to think that there is no possibility that some D trains will end up on Northern or any other parts of the Network but lets just wait and see, we don't even know if this train is going to work as well as Vivarail claim as yet.

Indeed. We won't know how good it is until they have built one and it's running somewhere.

Worth noting that the Parry People Movers were comprehensively rubbished....and now two are in service in Stourbridge and doing the job perfectly well.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Indeed. We won't know how good it is until they have built one and it's running somewhere.

Worth noting that the Parry People Movers were comprehensively rubbished....and now two are in service in Stourbridge and doing the job perfectly well.

I think the line length of the Stourbridge branch is rather less than other suggested lines for the Vivarail product to so traverse.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the line length of the Stourbridge branch is rather less than other suggested lines for the Vivarail product to so traverse.

I don't see why that is in the slightest bit relevant; they are very different types of unit. (Though a 2-car D78 would no doubt work fine on the Stourbridge branch should the rubber band irrevocably break )

 

[jopsuk]

If the bit about them testing on the line as far as Evesham is rue, then I would think this is likely to be the next we officially here about it?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If the bit about them testing on the line as far as Evesham is rue, then I would think this is likely to be the next we officially here about it?

Where you show the word "rue" in your posting, is that in the same sense as "rue the day"...