Jeremy Corbyn would consider women-only rail carriages

[meridian2]

I think it's fundamentally sexist idea.

 

[Tetchytyke]

of course it is illegal (prima facie): they are limiting entry to one part of the service to all but one section of the customer base.

If this is done for the purpose of alleviating disadvantage for one (or more) groups of people with protected characteristics then it is not illegal.

From the Equality and Human Rights Commission guidance on the Equality Act:

You are allowed to provide separate services for men and women where providing a joint service (ie one where men and women are provided with exactly the same service) would not be as effective. You are also allowed to provide separate services for men and women in different ways or to a different level where:
• providing a joint service would not be as effective, and
• the extent to which the service is required by one sex makes it not reasonably practicable to provide the service except in the different ways or to the different level.

In each case, you need to be able to objectively justify what you are doing.

You are allowed to provide single-sex services (services just for men or just for women) where this is objectively justified and:
• only men or only women require the service, or
• there is joint provision for both sexes but that is not enough on its own, or
• if the service were provided for men and women jointly, it would not be as effective and the extent to which each sex requires the service makes it not reasonably practicable to provide separate services for each sex, or
• the services are provided in a hospital or other place where users need special care, supervision or attention (or in parts of such an establishment),
• the services may be used by more than one person at the same time and a woman might reasonably object to the presence of a man (or vice versa), or
• the services may involve physical contact between a user and someone else and that other person may reasonably object if the user is of the opposite sex.

For example:
• At a commercial gym and swimming pool, women-only swimming sessions
could be provided as well as mixed sessions.
• Separate services for men and women could be provided by a beauty
therapist where intimate personal health or hygiene is involved.
• A healthcare provider can offer services only to men or only to women, such as particular types of health screening for conditions that only affect men or only affect women.

Generally, a business which is providing separate services or single-sex services should treat a transsexual person according to the sex in which the transsexual person presents (as opposed to the physical sex they were born with), as it is unlawful to discriminate against someone because of gender reassignment. Although a business can exclude a transsexual person or provide them with a different service, this is only if it can objectively
justify doing so.

http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/...ts/EqualityAct/service_providers_business.pdf

There's nothing to prevent male-only areas either.

As I've said, it is probably an unworkable and unrealistic plan, but that doesn't make it unlawful.

 

[trainophile]

I wasn't treating trannies as a joke. There's one working in a local branch of a well-known store, and he/she is an extremely nice person, although it's a bit disconcerting not knowing if the individual is male or female.

Apologies for any unintentional offence caused .

 

[Tetchytyke]

I wasn't treating trannies as a joke

S'ok, I didn't think you were, I could tell yours was a serious point

FWIW, and to add (and not to the quote either), I think it's a stupid idea and will just encourage people to be abusive towards people outside the "safe carriage". And you'll just get the victim blaming if something happens, "well if she was in the safe carriage it wouldn't have happened". Sorting out the attitude that it's OK to grope someone on the tube, or OK to stalk them or insult them as "just being friendly", is far more important.

 

[Howardh]

Haven't read the full thread so don't know if this situation has occured;
two-carriage train, one open and one for women. (OK< that probably is so impractical it wouldn't happen, but just because something is impractical doesn't stop laws being made....another story).
It's the last train of the day...and a big football game has ended, mostly attended by men. The open carriage is completely full and ther is simply no room for 100 fans outside waiting to get on. But the womwn's carriage has 10 in it and 100-odd empty seats.
Pity the poor guard trying to stop the fans entering the women's only area, or even throwing them out!!
Bottom line, it wouldn't work and would create more problems than it solves. No, can that Mr. Corbyn move on and discuss the economy, migrants, our crumbling transport infrastructure, schools, NHS, why I can't get a dentist......just a thought.

 

[Aldaniti]

Looking at the state of some of the female inhabitants of my own town, particularly on Friday and Saturday evenings, Men Only coaches might have their uses in some areas.....

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

Apparently many people have rather jumped the gun ....some clarification copied from JC's facebook page:

Jeremy Corbyn for Labour Leader
2 hrs · Edited ·

It's to be expected, but the policy consultation launched this morning on the issue of street harassment has been skewed by some of the press reporting - which has focused on one part: that of women-only carriages. The key point is that these are *consultations*, not policy prescriptions. A spokesperson for the campaign has reiterated:

"This is one of seven policy ideas that have arisen from issues raised by women, asking women for their views on how best to deal with harassment in public spaces. These policies are all driven by the knowledge that we must tackle harassment by changing men's behaviour, not blaming or penalising women - this is why they include proposals for better holding men to account, for ensuring women can report incidents without fear of being dismissed, and for better equipping public officials to prevent harassment. At last we are having a national debate about the problem of harassment in our society - it has been overlooked by the political and media establishment for too long. Our policy in this area will be driven by the views of women."

The policy statement reads:

"Some women have raised with me that a solution to the rise in assault and harassment on public transport could be to introduce women only carriages. My intention would be to make public transport safer for everyone from the train platform, to the bus stop to on the mode of transport itself. However, I would consult with women and open it up to hear their views on whether women-only carriages would be welcome - and also if piloting this at times and modes of transport where harassment is reported most frequently would be of interest."

 

[Howardh]

Looking at the state of some of the female inhabitants of my own town, particularly on Friday and Saturday evenings, Men Only coaches might have their uses in some areas.....

Drunk/sober coaches
Smelly/clean people
With/without dogs
Football/non-football fans
Optimistic/pessimistic
Heavy rock/EMO's
....etc etc!

 

[Greenback]

So, it's not JC's idea at all, nothing to do with him, he's only bringing up some of the ideas that have been put to him. The press have ganged up on him, too.

Forgive me being cynical, but it's just the sort of response I'd expect once some of the many and rather obvious flaws have been pointed out.

 

[Howardh]

Apparently many people have rather jumped the gun ....some clarification copied from JC's facebook page:

Jeremy Corbyn for Labour Leader
2 hrs · Edited ·

It's to be expected, but the policy consultation launched this morning on the issue of street harassment has been skewed by some of the press reporting - which has focused on one part: that of women-only carriages. The key point is that these are *consultations*, not policy prescriptions. A spokesperson for the campaign has reiterated:

"This is one of seven policy ideas that have arisen from issues raised by women, asking women for their views on how best to deal with harassment in public spaces. These policies are all driven by the knowledge that we must tackle harassment by changing men's behaviour, not blaming or penalising women - this is why they include proposals for better holding men to account, for ensuring women can report incidents without fear of being dismissed, and for better equipping public officials to prevent harassment. At last we are having a national debate about the problem of harassment in our society - it has been overlooked by the political and media establishment for too long. Our policy in this area will be driven by the views of women."

The policy statement reads:

"Some women have raised with me that a solution to the rise in assault and harassment on public transport could be to introduce women only carriages. My intention would be to make public transport safer for everyone from the train platform, to the bus stop to on the mode of transport itself. However, I would consult with women and open it up to hear their views on whether women-only carriages would be welcome - and also if piloting this at times and modes of transport where harassment is reported most frequently would be of interest."

So basically it's just a special-interest group away from being policy. That's how it reads to me?

 

[Greenback]

It simply means that some advisors came up with this half baked scheme and I was too dumb to realise it's completely unworkable.

 

[Howardh]

It simply means that some advisors came up with this half baked scheme and I was too dumb to realise it's completely unworkable.

To be fair to all concerned, it would make a darned good "Yes Minister" special!

 

[Greenback]

To be fair to all concerned, it would make a darned good "Yes Minister" special!

I think it could easily fall under that old chestnut 'You couldn't make it up'

 

[Howardh]

I think it could easily fall under that old chestnut 'You couldn't make it up'

Hacker returns from a women's group meeting with votes in his eyes.
Calls in Sir Humphrey with his plans for "women only" carriages.
Let battle commence.....

 

[sarahj]

I wonder, would groups of drunk, cackling and general utterly unpleasant hen parties and such be allowed into these dainty little "I'm a Laydeee" carriages??

Or is it unacceptable to mention that such women exist now?!

Jesus Christ...

It depends on not if they have an inflatable penis with them. Being on a Southampton to Brighton service on a friday afternoon with sometimes 3 separate groups can make the two hours go so slow. And one group will have an inflatable penis (yawn)!!!



As a slight aside. There was a plan a few years ago to get rid of the ladies toilet in a mess room and replace it with a shower. 'Where were we to go?' I asked. Oh female staff can use the public toilets on the platform. Err no.
You can either have one for both, or one each, not one for one and rest can go somewhere else. A few words in the right place and plan shelved.

 

[Howardh]

It depends on not if they have an inflatable penis with them. Being on a Southampton to Brighton service on a friday afternoon with sometimes 3 separate groups can make the two hours go so slow. And one group will have an inflatable penis (yawn)!!!

As a passenger at least we've a chance to get out of the way - on an aircraft that simply isn't possible!

Seriously, if a passenger was so bothered by hen/stag do's on trains, would they invalid thier ticket if they got so fed up they got off the train at a stop and simply caught the next one and continued - or would the guards/collecters understand and empathise with the situation?

 

[muddythefish]

Seems to me the idea is fundamentally impractical.

Take a packed 4-car commuter train. Probably 7 out of 10 passengers will be men - are they expected to be standing in the aisles, or worse, not even be able to board, while the women-only carriage has empty seats ?

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

So basically it's just a special-interest group away from being policy. That's how it reads to me?

I'm not sure why everyone is becoming so worked up about this...it is one - small - area concerning issues around preventative measures to end harassment of women on the street (including public transport). What on earth is wrong with floating such ideas?

 

[Tetchytyke]

What on earth is wrong with floating such ideas?

Nothing. There weren't complaints when a Conservative MP suggested it.

Funny that.

 

[sarahj]

As a passenger at least we've a chance to get out of the way - on an aircraft that simply isn't possible!

Seriously, if a passenger was so bothered by hen/stag do's on trains, would they invalid thier ticket if they got so fed up they got off the train at a stop and simply caught the next one and continued - or would the guards/collecters understand and empathise with the situation?

Well i'm a guard, can you tell if I might empathise with the situation.

I've been sexually assaulted on a train by a drunk passenger. My only escape was the rear cab*. On late night trains a womans only coach would be impossible to police on my own. Some single females do sit close to where I am and I have kept my eye on a few when some males were being a bit naughty, checking they were alright. And on some late trains a womans only coach might attract some woman who would not make the area decent.


* one of the good bits was watching the person being dragged off the train by armed police at Gatwick. CCTV of his actions was shown in court and was damming even before I tried to tell him and his mates to calm down. He was jailed.

 

[misterredmist]

Corbyn is probably doing a "Micheal O'Leary" publicity stunt - what next , the women will have to wear burkas ?

surely an absolute joke -

anyway, if the Moroccan Jihadi on the AMS-PAR Thalys is anything to by, we'll need more than same sex carriages ......

 

[507021]

I just can't see it working without extra BTP on trains in the evenings to actually enforce it

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

Nothing. There weren't complaints when a Conservative MP suggested it.

Funny that.

Indeed!

 

[HH]

This is not a new idea. I believe it was floated by TS some time ago, for instance. I also attended a meeting a few years ago where it was proposed by a woman (can't recall what group she represented).

It's not unworkable. You don't have it on every train, just selected trains - mainly late evening. You would require additional security presence (probably one person on board plus BTP at the originating station), which adds cost of course, but the theory is that more women would use the train after a night out. The security presence would have knock-on benefits.

I haven't seen one decent argument against so far, but I have seen a lot of tosh, like it's illegal. If it was illegal then how come the Garrick Club still exists as a male only preserve?

 

[Greenback]

I'm not sure why everyone is becoming so worked up about this...it is one - small - area concerning issues around preventative measures to end harassment of women on the street (including public transport). What on earth is wrong with floating such ideas?

Because it's so obviously unworkable and impractical? And of no real benefit? Anyone with any sense can see that, so it's a bit worrying that anyone can float such an idea with any seriousness if they hope to lead a party and perhaps one day become PM.

JC is just trying a bit too hard to be seen as different from other politicians in all probability. He is hoping to stand out from the crowd, but this will make him do that for all the wrong reasons.

 

[Geezertronic]

Maybe they should forget about female only coaches on a service as it would be a logistical nightmare and suggest female only rail services crewed by a female driver and female TM...

 

[HH]

Just to show that there's nothing new under the sun: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34061094

 

[amcluesent]

Justing wonder at what age male children accompanying women travellers would have to sit alone in a different carriage - 10, 12, 14 ? Easy picking for pederasts.

 

[KnapweedMartha]

I wasn't treating trannies as a joke. There's one working in a local branch of a well-known store, and he/she is an extremely nice person, although it's a bit disconcerting not knowing if the individual is male or female.

So.

The word "tranny" is offensive because it is disrespectful, it is often used as a term of abuse, and is at times the last word that a trans woman hears before she is murders.

"he/she" is also very offensive, because it's used as a term of abuse in the same way. If you don't know, use singular "they", just as you would for a hypothetical person whose gender you don't know.

Note that whether or not you intend to use a word as abuse at a given time, if it frequently is used that way then you should avoid it. Just as you wouldn't say 'paki' even if you meant it in a purely descriptive way, because it's most often used in a racist context.

And I don't see what's disconcerting about this. Why do you need to know? Indeed, what do you wish to know? Are you interested in who they are, or are you interested in what their genitals look like?

 

[Antman]

Nothing. There weren't complaints when a Conservative MP suggested it.

Funny that.

It's a ridiculous idea whoever is suggesting it