Continual cancellations of railtours

[crewmeal]

I have booked 5 railtours this year only to have 3 of them cancelled so far. The excuses are usually low bookings. The latest being the City of Glasgow explorer next weekend.

I now find that looking at the list of cancellations on railway herald that it seems to be certain Companies (no names mentioned) who do cancel. Surely this will have a negative affect on any future tours that they might plan for fear of last minute cancellations. For one I would avoid using these operators in the future.

The only decent operator I have used time and time again is Pathfinder, who do not cancel for low bookings, probably because they have decent tours and pay attention to the meticulous detail when planning them

What do you think??

 

[theblackwatch]

The only decent operator I have used time and time again is Pathfinder, who do not cancel for low bookings, probably because they have decent tours and pay attention to the meticulous detail when planning them

I would disagree with that statement, this quote comes directly from the Pathfinder website:

Trains & Boats & Planes
Hauled by Class 47 diesels July, Saturday 19th, 2008
THIS EXCURSION HAS BEEN CANCELLED - SORRY. LACK OF BOOKINGS.

Pathfinder also cancelled a steam hauled tour in May due to lack of bookings.

One thing I do agree with is that far too many trips are being cancelled, and it is hardly going to inspire people to book on trains, particularly if you have to buy advance purchase tickets or book accommodation in connection with the trip.

 

[yorkie]

There are too many trips being organised, some of them have uninspiring traction that are not going to attract many enthusiasts.

 

[Meld]

Then there are the cancellations made due to NR's inability to provide the requested paths.

I wonder how many tours have been canceled this year for that reason

 

[D306]

http://www.railtourinfo.co.uk/diesel.html

Just look at all the red they've got there

 

[1D53]

Then there are the cancellations made due to NR's inability to provide the requested paths.

I wonder how many tours have been canceled this year for that reason

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Then there are the cancellations made due to NR's inability to provide the requested paths.

I wonder how many tours have been canceled this year for that reason

I think this is the main reason, Network Rail playing with paths every ten minutes!

 

[theblackwatch]

There are too many trips being organised, some of them have uninspiring traction that are not going to attract many enthusiasts.

This is only really a problem if operators rely too heavily on the fickle enthusiast market - unless a tour is particularly outstanding, you aren;'t going to fill it with cranks. Probably the most successful tour operator is John Farrow, formerly Hertfordshire and now UK Railtours. Very rarely does he specify any particular motive power for his trains, yet a large number a fully booked months in advance.

 

[87015]

The only decent operator I have used time and time again is Pathfinder, who do not cancel for low bookings, probably because they have decent tours and pay attention to the meticulous detail when planning them

What do you think??

What do I think - are you mad?? Pathfinder are one of the worse, just for pure overcharging if nothing else. Interesting how now they have a bit of competition they have started to reduce their prices...

Seem to have just as many capings / postponements / changes from what was advertised as anyone else if not more aswell.

 

[P156KWJ]

I've only ever been on one railtour, and I get worried when booking a new one. It was back in december 2005, was 45122 TnT with a Fragon***t 31, some exAnglia / Virgin mk2/3s and was an hour late when I caught it, broke down at Nottingham, Barrow on Soar, loughborough, Leicester, and Leicester again
we got our money back (eventually)

 

[alex57601]

There are too many trips being organised, some of them have uninspiring traction that are not going to attract many enthusiasts.

That comes to blows when several tours clash on the one day, even more so if there are two tours with the same traction. You are spot on about the amount of tours, and if you ask me there are one or two areas of the market that are over saturated.

Deltic 22 (55022 Royal Scots Grey) for example, there are nine tours between now and the end of the year with it, and it makes you wonder why the DPS pulled D9009 and 55019 off the mainline after a disastrous 2005 programme and as such are unlikely to see them running about on rails that are not on a preserved railway in the future. As much as I like Deltic's the situation would've been eased if the remainder of this year's planned Deltic tours were split between two or three different engines (example, D9016, 55019 and 55022).

Please bear in mind I am not ranting about seeing RSG out on the mainline time and time again and I have nothing but praise for Martin Walker to the amount of time, money and energy invested into it, especially when a lot of things went wrong during 2006/2007.

I think this is the main reason, Network Rail playing with paths every ten minutes!

The situation doesn't help if the promoter requests (and then advertises) timings that, although sound civilised, are way too ambitious and result in early starts + late finishes.

This also puts promoters in a no-win situation sometimes as if this is them they have to make trade-offs, be it through a reduced break at the destination or the uncivilised timings. Either way there will be complaints, and they will mostly come from daytrippers and nine times out of ten you will be lucky if the daytrippers that complain book on another tour. But having said that it isn't really advisable to not aim tours towards daytrippers as you will need them to help fill the train if the cranks don't come in their masses as originally intended, and vice versa.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I've only ever been on one railtour, and I get worried when booking a new one. It was back in december 2005, was 45122 TnT with a Fragon***t 31, some exAnglia / Virgin mk2/3s and was an hour late when I caught it, broke down at Nottingham, Barrow on Soar, loughborough, Leicester, and Leicester again
we got our money back (eventually)

Who was the promoter for that tour? Don't let situations like that put you off from booking on to a railtour.

 

[crewmeal]

Vintage trains have now cancelled the Edinburgh trip at the end of September, great another Birmingham tour bites the dust!!! What went wrong this time?

 

[Donny Dave]

Given the timespan between now and when the VT tour was suppose to run, I presume that is NR saying there is no paths available because of engineering works or a similar reason. This isn't the first tour that has been cancelled that was supposed to run over the northern part of the WCML, so I presume there is a few blockades planned for that part of the route in September.

With regards to other tour operators, I've been booked on a Pathfinder tour that has been cancelled dur to low bookings (37 hauled no less), and other companies will cancel for various reasons.

Spitfire have been unlucky off late, as NR have changed paths and timings [1] at short notice, leading to reduced time at the destination, and even an alternative outward route.

[1] Jolly Fisherman. It was supposed to run next weekend, but NR said the other day it had to go via Manchester Victoria on the outward leg as there was no paths through Manchester Piccadilly. This then clashed with an EMT service between Boston and Skegness which would have meant there would only be approx 90 minutes there instead of the advertised 4 hours.

 

[RJ]

Tour promoters need to stop advertising tours with specific traction when the traction has not yet been agreed and confirmed for it. I thought one of the key ideas in business is that you don't take unnecessary risks. I booked on a tour a while back, under the illusion that it was being hauled by DRS 37s. When it ran, it was EWS 37s - not what I paid £75 for, and no explanation whatsoever from the promoter. Some cancellations are perfectly avoidable by not advertising them with specific traction in the first place unless it has been guaranteed.

 

[87015]

Tour promoters need to stop advertising tours with specific traction when the traction has not yet been agreed and confirmed for it. I thought one of the key ideas in business is that you don't take unnecessary risks. I booked on a tour a while back, under the illusion that it was being hauled by DRS 37s. When it ran, it was EWS 37s - not what I paid £75 for, and no explanation whatsoever from the promoter. Some cancellations are perfectly avoidable by not advertising them with specific traction in the first place unless it has been guaranteed.

And the tour operator was..... (I think i can guess but wouldn't want to be accused of any bias)

 

[37402]

Tour promoters need to stop advertising tours with specific traction when the traction has not yet been agreed and confirmed for it. I thought one of the key ideas in business is that you don't take unnecessary risks. I booked on a tour a while back, under the illusion that it was being hauled by DRS 37s. When it ran, it was EWS 37s - not what I paid £75 for, and no explanation whatsoever from the promoter. Some cancellations are perfectly avoidable by not advertising them with specific traction in the first place unless it has been guaranteed.

You had ample time from notification of change of motive power to date of running to cancel or amend your booking so quit complaining. Plus you got at least one winning tractor on that tour (never thought that would be possible for anyone with /4s). hock:

 

[37412]

You had ample time from notification of change of motive power to date of running to cancel or amend your booking so quit complaining. Plus you got at least one winning tractor on that tour (never thought that would be possible for anyone with /4s). hock:

Also the one I think you a referring to there Mr 402 was never booked for DRS machines but 31's which was the amended to EWS 37's, the tour on March the 8th was originally booked for DRS 37's but this was switched to EWS when DRS said the were unable to resource locos for that date.

(never thought that would be possible for anyone with /4s). hock:

431 guv?

 

[RJ]

Also the one I think you a referring to there Mr 402 was never booked for DRS machines but 31's which was the amended to EWS 37's, the tour on March the 8th was originally booked for DRS 37's but this was switched to EWS when DRS said the were unable to resource locos for that date.

100%, I decided to do the Spitfire tour instead which had the traction I was after advertised from the outset.

You had ample time from notification of change of motive power to date of running to cancel or amend your booking so quit complaining.

I'm not complaining about that one. I booked on that both for the route and to be hauled by locos I like the sound of and to be honest I wasn't disappointed at the motive power change. If it was the other way round

Plus you got at least one winning tractor on that tour (never thought that would be possible for anyone with /4s). hock:

I did, yes - everybody has to start somewhere and it was 2007 for me.

 

[37412]

I did, yes - everybody has to start somewhere and it was 2007 for me.

I never had 22 last year Think it only did two tours though.

 

[alex57601]

Tour promoters need to stop advertising tours with specific traction when the traction has not yet been agreed and confirmed for it. I thought one of the key ideas in business is that you don't take unnecessary risks. I booked on a tour a while back, under the illusion that it was being hauled by DRS 37s. When it ran, it was EWS 37s - not what I paid £75 for, and no explanation whatsoever from the promoter. Some cancellations are perfectly avoidable by not advertising them with specific traction in the first place unless it has been guaranteed.

If you divulge into the T&Cs of most promoters you will find that they reserve the right to run the tour with any traction they like.

What you must remember is that most promoters plan their tours around specific traction (exception of course is UK Railtours), and they will endeavour to run the tour on the day with the advertised traction with the co-operation of all parties involved. If for whatever reason they can not run the tour with the advertised traction then the next priority will be to run the tour with whatever is available, be it the same class from a different operator (like in your case EWS 37s vice DRS 37s) or a completely different class.

Cancelling the tour because the traction specified is unavailable for whatever reason is not the way forward because a loss is made on cancelling it and refunding all booked passengers. Also on some tours you need to specify traction to attract the punters, and then the promoter can hide behind the T&Cs if the specified traction is not available.

There is a lot of risk in business, some of which is indeed unnecessary. But more often than not some of the unnecessary or plain mad risks are those that have the potential to be able to reap a lot of reward from them.

 

[87015]

What you must remember is that most promoters plan their tours around specific traction (exception of course is UK Railtours), and they will endeavour to run the tour on the day with the advertised traction with the co-operation of all parties involved. If for whatever reason they can not run the tour with the advertised traction then the next priority will be to run the tour with whatever is available, be it the same class from a different operator (like in your case EWS 37s vice DRS 37s) or a completely different class.

The point was nothing to do with on the day availability, but about advertising something (say blue or yellow 37s) you never actually requested. Most high street stores would get done for false advertising...

 

[theblackwatch]

I hope you hadn't booked to go to Eastbourne Airshow with Pathfinder on August 16th!

 

[CraigS]

I hope you hadn't booked to go to Eastbourne Airshow with Pathfinder on August 16th!

Its still running though according to Pathfinder's website. However the latest RAIL magazine suggests that it has been cancelled and would've had 2x47s on it and not 40145. I believe a tour for the Farnborough Airshow has been cancelled and the traction for that was 2x47s so maybe theres been a mix-up. It seems it anyway.

 

[matt]

http://cfpsnews.wordpress.com/2008/07/04/eastbourne-more-bad-news/


Vintage Trains are also running a Birmingham to Eastbourne the same day with 47s.

 

[RJ]

Cancelling the tour because the traction specified is unavailable for whatever reason is not the way forward because a loss is made on cancelling it and refunding all booked passengers. Also on some tours you need to specify traction to attract the punters, and then the promoter can hide behind the T&Cs if the specified traction is not available.

Thats exactly what they've done with today's tour which was meant to be a 66 and 2 NR 37s. Sorry but if I need do anything more than use my 16+ Oystercard on the bus to get me to the tour then I'm not pre-booking unless I see that they stop cancelling their tours!

 

[crewmeal]

Vintage trains reply to the cancellation of the Edinburgh trip 27th Sept:

The Edinburgh trip was cancelled due to a Network Rail engineering blockage on the west coast main line between Crewe and Preston which would have meant being diverted and diesel hauled via Stoke, Manchester and Bolton in each direction. This would have made for an extremely early start and late finish with a much reduced time in Edinburgh.

With the continual ongoing engineering works on the WCML at weekends and continuing until at least the end of the year would it not be better for operators to plan trips avoiding this route in the first place, thus avoiding disappointment.

 

[Donny Dave]

Network Rail only announce engineering work on a T-12 schedule. IE. 12 weeks in advance. A tour can be planned for upto a year in advance, but the operator won't know until 3 months before hand if the route is available.

In this case, NR have announced a blockade 3 months in advance, and it has had the unfortunate effect of a tour having to be cancelled.

 

[1VWC]

But more often than not some of the unnecessary or plain mad risks are those that have the potential to be able to reap a lot of reward from them.

Quite, and this is the route that PF seem to be going down for a lot of "crank orientated" (as opposed to general day out) tours.

The mindset appears to be "If it comes off, great, but if it doesn't then never mind, they'll be back". People will moan and groan until the cows come home, but PF seem to enjoy a unique position where people who may have been caught out by the cancellation will generally go back to them once they offer something else 'appealing', which they no doubt will do.

Previously, this may have been to do with the fact there was very little in the way of direct competition but with the advent of Spitfire, IMO, PF are be getting a little worried about whether people will actually keep coming back and to win this battle, may be taking ever increasing risks with regard to advertising non-confirmed (or even non-booked) traction and/or routing.

 

[CraigS]

http://cfpsnews.wordpress.com/2008/07/04/eastbourne-more-bad-news/

Thats a shame, was rather looking forward to seeing a class 40 in Eastbourne.

 

[Andrew Tiffin]

I think you should tell the company who cancelled it off.

 

[P156KWJ]

easier said than done