Chris Green & reopening railways

[davetheguard]

When Chris Green was manager of Scotrail, he re-opened the then branch from Edinburgh to Bathgate.

After his move south to found Network South East, he re-opened Oxford to Bicester.

Look at these two routes now: one electrified and further extended to form a through route. The other has had a total rebuild and redouble, and is also due to be extended as part of East-West rail and be electrified.

I remember what an inspirational, positive, breath of fresh air Chris Green's management style was after years of managed decline, are these two lines the most successful railway re-openings so far?

 

[PHILIPE]

Chris Green was an old time proper railwayman.

 

[oldman]

Looking at Wikipedia it strikes me the timelags from Green's appointments at Scotrail and NSE and the two reopenings are quite short and I wonder whether he inherited rather than instigated the projects.

There was a documentary (unlikely to be repeated as if featured a certain J. Savile) about Peter Parker and the HST not long ago which also muddied the timelines a bit and implied Parker was responsible for the HST.

Parker and Green were inspirational figures but essentially marketing men and in that respect maybe not 'proper old-time' railwaymen.

 

[The Planner]

Not sure how it can be said Oxford Bicester was really successful, yes it re-opened and provided a useful service, but it was only a single line slow speed route, Islip came a little later. It would have had to be rebuilt much like the Bicester - Bletchley section even if it hadn't reopened.

 

[yorksrob]

Not sure how it can be said Oxford Bicester was really successful, yes it re-opened and provided a useful service, but it was only a single line slow speed route, Islip came a little later. It would have had to be rebuilt much like the Bicester - Bletchley section even if it hadn't reopened.

How else would you define successful ? We have lots of other routes that should be open, yet never seem to get anywhere. Against the lack of reopenings over the past decade and a half, Oxford Bicester has been wildly successful.
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Looking at Wikipedia it strikes me the timelags from Green's appointments at Scotrail and NSE and the two reopenings are quite short and I wonder whether he inherited rather than instigated the projects.

I'm not sure whether he instigated those particular reopenings, however, as a Director of those sectors, he would have been responsible for creating an ethos in which reopenings were possible.

This is a considerable departure from the Beeching mindset of pursuing closures at all costs which persisted in some parts railway until quite late.

 

[The Planner]

How else would you define successful ? We have lots of other routes that should be open, yet never seem to get anywhere. Against the lack of reopenings over the past decade and a half, Oxford Bicester has been wildly successful.

Note my use of "really" before you get excited, I didn't say it wasn't successful at all. It was re-opened with the most basic of infrastructure, single and slow speed with 2 car trains? Surely if it boomed massively then something would have been done in the 24 years since it reopened? Would you compare it with say Ebbw Vale which outstripped anything that anyone predicted within a few years?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Chris Green was one of the few railway managers who could handle the press.
Certainly an impressive manager, although his time outside the railway at English Heritage didn't go well.
On the other hand, I seem to remember him cutting VT services to Blackpool and Shrewsbury, and perform repeated cutbacks on the VXC network after Operation Princess.
The major decisions on VT rolling stock were taken before he arrived as MD.

According to Modern Railways at the time, the negotiations with Railtrack after the cancellation of 140mph plans for the WCML led to a Virgin demand for 9 extra Pendolinos to compensate for longer journey times, and new routes including a Euston-Sunderland via Huddersfield!
None of that happened.

I can't remember if he is still a Network Rail non-exec, but he did do the report on stations that identified the worst on the network, and which kicked off the upgrade of Manchester Victoria and Wakefield Kirkgate.

 

[Ianno87]

In recent years, the "popularity" of Oxford-Bicester is probably partly to do with the very low fare charged - currently £2.70 for a CDR (even without railcard) - very attractive given road congestion and cost of parking in Oxford, surely?

It would be interesting to see how low this fare stays once Chiltern get train services up and running again next year.

 

[yorksrob]

Note my use of "really" before you get excited, I didn't say it wasn't successful at all. It was re-opened with the most basic of infrastructure, single and slow speed with 2 car trains? Surely if it boomed massively then something would have been done in the 24 years since it reopened? Would you compare it with say Ebbw Vale which outstripped anything that anyone predicted within a few years?

Iwas under the impression that the line was being upgraded as we speak !

In many ways, you've highlighted the problem. We expect every reopening to be spectacular, but if it's steady rather than spectacular, it's judged not to be successful and becomes an excuse for not doing anything else.

 

[70014IronDuke]

...
In many ways, you've highlighted the problem. We expect every reopening to be spectacular, but if it's steady rather than spectacular, it's judged not to be successful and becomes an excuse for not doing anything else.

agree. Bicester used to be a decent sized village. Re-opening to Oxford would never be a bang! bang! bang! event - you'd have needed to close Bicester North and then reopen to get that.

Re-opening did make a statement, however. And were not the powers at be still hoping to close Bletchley-Bedford at the very same time? If not, it was only a few years earlier.

 

[The Planner]

Iwas under the impression that the line was being upgraded as we speak !

Which, again, wasn't what I said. It is being upgraded as part of a wider scheme not because of Bicester? Prior to East West and Bicester growing quite considerably in the years to that (it was never a "decent sized village" in the slightest it has always been more than that), nothing had been done to the route despite the reopening in 20+ years.

 

[Greenback]

The reopening to Bicester Town was, i seem to remember, pretty low key and basic. I think that there were only three services each way per day at the start, although my memory could have let me down again about that!

If I'm right, though, then things do seem to have improved after a sort of trial period, as I can remember more services than that running during the lat 90's.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Whilst NSE line re-openings were low - the number of stations opened - locally How Wood and Welham Green being 2 examples - along with a huge increase in services were one of the many good things that CEWG did with his team.

His return to the railway to put some discipline into the floundering WCML upgrade and the terrifying meltdown of Cross Country after Operation Princess were a significant challenge to say the very least. Things ,I suspect - would have been worse without his capable assistance.

 

[route:oxford]

In recent years, the "popularity" of Oxford-Bicester is probably partly to do with the very low fare charged - currently £2.70 for a CDR (even without railcard) - very attractive given road congestion and cost of parking in Oxford, surely?

It would be interesting to see how low this fare stays once Chiltern get train services up and running again next year.

The £225,000 annual funding by Bicester Village for three years between 2009-2012 resulted in a more intensive service and boosted the number of users over the period by 45,000 was also helpful.

Story in "The Oxford Mail"

http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/9611008.Improved_rail_link_survives_end_of_subsidy/

 

[Taunton]

Whilst NSE line re-openings were low

Well it did include Thameslink, surely the most successful reopening of all.

 

[Busaholic]

Looking at Wikipedia it strikes me the timelags from Green's appointments at Scotrail and NSE and the two reopenings are quite short and I wonder whether he inherited rather than instigated the projects.

There was a documentary (unlikely to be repeated as if featured a certain J. Savile) about Peter Parker and the HST not long ago which also muddied the timelines a bit and implied Parker was responsible for the HST.

Parker and Green were inspirational figures but essentially marketing men and in that respect maybe not 'proper old-time' railwaymen.

Sir Peter Parker I would put on a par with Sir John Harvey-Jones, he of the loud ties and ex-head of ICI i.e. one of the 'great and the good' who may have inspired others by their rhetoric but probably did nothing very tangible themselves.
Chris Green was in a different league and was responsible for initiating or bringing along many good projects at a time when the rail system was either under attack from politicians or being routinely ignored.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Well it did include Thameslink, surely the most successful reopening of all.

Just a bit - about 300 yards to relay - and what results ....( I remembered it as soon as I posted - but dinner called)

Travelled on the very first service train from Wimbledon - and have done over 25 years of commuting on the route)

 

[colchesterken]

Chris Green For fat controller ( he is quite thin actually ) but you all know what I mean

 

[davetheguard]

Well it did include Thameslink, surely the most successful reopening of all.

I'm not sure how I managed to overlook that one in my OP either!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Well it did include Thameslink, surely the most successful reopening of all.

Although Chris Green's Network South East certainly made Thameslink happen, with class 319s etc, I was under the impression that it was mainly an LT (GLC) initiative which promoted the project in the first place.

Apart from all the red, white and blue lamp-posts, wasn't the Networker programme conceived in Chris Green's time at NSE?
And Chiltern total route modernisation?
Integrating the London commuter networks north and south of the Thames under a single brand was a considerable achievement, both operationally and in terms of stations and ticketing.

 

[Bald Rick]

Although Chris Green's Network South East certainly made Thameslink happen, with class 319s etc, I was under the impression that it was mainly an LT (GLC) initiative which promoted the project in the first place.

Apart from all the red, white and blue lamp-posts, wasn't the Networker programme conceived in Chris Green's time at NSE?
And Chiltern total route modernisation?
Integrating the London commuter networks north and south of the Thames under a single brand was a considerable achievement, both operationally and in terms of stations and ticketing.

Correct on all points. Indeed, GLC paid for the early stages of work at Snow Hill.

Mr Green is still involved and working on rail matters in the SE, and is in as good form as ever.

 

[Trog]

He used to commute from Berkhampsted, one of the initiatives of his time at NSE was the introduction of the retro-reflective road style speed restriction boards for PSR's. Myself and a traction inspector named Phil (Surname redacted to protect the guilty) did a survey and agreed the location of the boards between St Pancras and Bedford. After they were up Chris Green decided he liked them and ordered them fitting to the whole of the rest of the NSE area at once. Needless to say the signs were rapidly about as easy to obtain as rocking horse dung.

Chris Green would then ring my Area Civil Engineer every couple weeks to ask why there was no progress, and I would be called down to the bosses office to explain. Needless to say I was not very keen on this. So one day Phil and myself obtained a spare sign left over from the Midland project and erected it for the UF speed restriction at the north end of the middle platform at Berkhamsted. So Chris Green could see at least the back of it while he waited for his train each morning. That one sign kept him quiet for weeks on end, until I was able to obtain the signs needed to do the rest of Euston to Northampton. It stayed up for years and if you knew you could see it was a slightly different design to all the other signs.

It just goes to show bull**** baffles brains.

 

[70014IronDuke]

He used to commute from Berkhampsted, one of the initiatives of his time at NSE was the introduction of the retro-reflective road style speed restriction boards for PSR's. Myself and a traction inspector named Phil (Surname redacted to protect the guilty) did a survey and agreed the location of the boards between St Pancras and Bedford. After they were up Chris Green decided he liked them and ordered them fitting to the whole of the rest of the NSE area at once. Needless to say the signs were rapidly about as easy to obtain as rocking horse dung.

Chris Green would then ring my Area Civil Engineer every couple weeks to ask why there was no progress, and I would be called down to the bosses office to explain. Needless to say I was not very keen on this. So one day Phil and myself obtained a spare sign left over from the Midland project and erected it for the UF speed restriction at the north end of the middle platform at Berkhamsted. So Chris Green could see at least the back of it while he waited for his train each morning. That one sign kept him quiet for weeks on end, until I was able to obtain the signs needed to do the rest of Euston to Northampton. It stayed up for years and if you knew you could see it was a slightly different design to all the other signs.

It just goes to show bull**** baffles brains.

ABSOLUTLEY BRILLIANT! Love it!

 

[Pinza-C55]

I worked at King's Cross in the Chris Green era and I can assure you that his name was the subject of much derision then. The famous red lamp posts were regarded as a safety hazard since you didn't paint things red because they could be misconstrued by a driver as a danger signal. But Mr Green wanted it so it happened and thousands of non standard old lamp posts were replaced by the new ones leading to a great deal of wasted expense. Then there were the seats; at the time many of the stations had ex GNR seats and a load of NSE red metal ones were delivered to King's Cross. A day later a few men came in a van and said to the nearest BR worker "we've come for the seats mate". "OK" he said and the seats were never seen again. As for the circular speed signs they were commonly known as "idiot boards" and I remember travelling in the cab with one driver who lamented how they had become covered in brake dust and were nearly illegible.

 

[davetheguard]

I worked at King's Cross in the Chris Green era and I can assure you that his name was the subject of much derision then. The famous red lamp posts were regarded as a safety hazard since you didn't paint things red because they could be misconstrued by a driver as a danger signal. But Mr Green wanted it so it happened and thousands of non standard old lamp posts were replaced by the new ones leading to a great deal of wasted expense. Then there were the seats; at the time many of the stations had ex GNR seats and a load of NSE red metal ones were delivered to King's Cross. A day later a few men came in a van and said to the nearest BR worker "we've come for the seats mate". "OK" he said and the seats were never seen again. As for the circular speed signs they were commonly known as "idiot boards" and I remember travelling in the cab with one driver who lamented how they had become covered in brake dust and were nearly illegible.

Clearly the optimism that many of us felt that the railways had finally "turned a corner" and were on the way back up again, didn't quite reach all parts of the NSE empire then......

 

[Taunton]

There was a documentary ... about Peter Parker and the HST not long ago which also muddied the timelines a bit and implied Parker was responsible for the HST.

Parker and Green were inspirational figures but essentially marketing men and in that respect maybe not 'proper old-time' railwaymen.

Well Sir Peter Parker was chairman 1976-83, which covered all the building and introduction of HST services across the country. I bet he was on all the first services. He may not have given the OK for the first batch to be built, but would have been in all the subsequent negotiations with the Min of T for the subsequent ones. And because of his character, his comments on arrival were more likely to get selected by the BBC news editor for that evening's programme.

It is true they were not "proper old railwaymen", but there were thousands of those to draw on as required; it was good to have someone with different and complementary skills on the team, but who nevertheless had complete respect for what the established team did and could do - something than not all high-level chiefs in industry have.

 

[70014IronDuke]

ABSOLUTLEY BRILLIANT! Love it!

EDIT: I should add here that my comment is in no way meant to imply that I think Chris Green needed to be taken down a peg or two, nor that I think he's a fool or any such.

I realise that many see him as a great railway manager - and I hope he was/is. I was away from the railways when he was around, so in truth, i know next to nothing of his achievements - or failures. So I am totally neutral on him personally.

I only liked this anecdote because - however good the boss may or may not be - every manager has 'bees in their bonnets' - it's the nature of the beast - and this story so beautifully illustrated how subordinates, with no ill-intent, almost inevitably 'find a way' round a non-critical problem in order to get on with other, more immediate or doable jobs and ease the pressure.

 

[Pinza-C55]

Clearly the optimism that many of us felt that the railways had finally "turned a corner" and were on the way back up again, didn't quite reach all parts of the NSE empire then......

Some of us sensed that this was the beginning of the road to privatisation. As it turned out we were right.

 

[Taunton]

EDIT: I should add here that my comment is in no way meant to imply that I think Chris Green needed to be taken down a peg or two, nor that I think he's a fool or any such.

It's actually a variation on something that Gerry Fiennes wrote (I can't remember if it was in 'I Tried to Run a Railway' or elsewhere), where he said that if there were questions about work not being started, something like a new welfare block agreed for staff at a marshalling yard, he would have someone sent over with a spade and wheelbarrow to just start digging, whereupon "it's started" would be noted by all and the awkward questions would be postponed. Some time later the contractors would arrive to start the proper work.

 

[davetheguard]

Some of us sensed that this was the beginning of the road to privatisation. As it turned out we were right.

You were absolutely right. But whether connected or not -and I'm certainly not advocating one view or the other- it was also the beginning of the railway becoming more important in the life of the nation again. That was the important thing.

We've now got a railway that is carrying a lot more passengers; one where generally the stations are a lot better maintained; and one where we are building and re-opening railways rather than closing them.

Do I want to go back to the shabby run down railway of the late 70's & early 80's where the governments of the day (both Tory & Labour) starved the industry of investment? No, I do not!