Scotrail Turbostars moving to Southern

[physics34]

As a passenger I cant comment on the differences between a Class 170 and 171 however the service on the Uckfield line has been awful recently and as said one of the big issues has been short formed units. Its not quite so bad when the units are shortformed in the morning as those south of Hurst Green can at least get on the train, in the evening they often cant fit on the train and can have up to an hour wait for the next train.

In addition the difficulties of boarding and leaving the train add significantly to dwell times at the stations.

Twitter is full of complaints from passengers although Southerns response is less than satisfactory as they give the impression of not really caring, well to be precise its down to management failure. A number of staff are excellent are at trying to keep passengers informed. For example it invariably falls to a driver (who's not far away!) to tweet about short formations, and to give explanations as to why they are short.

Whilst all this is happening Southern have 2 3 coach trains which presumably they are paying to hire sitting around doing nothing which has to be daft.

I bet one of the main reasons they wont run them as they are is because they are in First livery.... it gets as picky and political as that... unless the DfT force them to run them (which they should) (although i know there are 377s and 319s running around in FCC livery)...

There is a perfect diagram for them too.. The 06.38 LBG to Uckfield, 08.04 Uckfield to LBG, 09.30 LBG to Selhurst Depot. (timings are just off the top of my head.).. currently a 4 car, making that 4 car spare..or lengthening one of the other services. Fitting them in in the PM peak would be a bit more difficult cos of the limitations of Oxted Bay platform, there would need to be more jigging around with the formations.

 

[Southern Dvr]

Don't see how the livery can be a big deal, there's loads of stuff running about in defunct liveries and if they cite that as a reason then its a total contempt for the passengers.

The diagram you mention starts out of oxted bay at 04+40 so that would be no good for a 6 car. The best diagram would involve the 0702 1008 1308 1608 1908 & 2226 (ECR) departures from London Bridge. That way you free up a 4 car and a 2 car. It's worth noting that the 0702, 1008 & 1308 are all formed of a single 2 car which would then be freed up. The 1608, 1908 & 2226 services would free up a 4 car unit as well for the evening peak.

But this is all fictional because the 'can do' attitude of other companies, those using LHCS to combat their unit shortages and what have you doesn't seem to apply to DFT-GTR

 

[fgwrich]

Don't see how the livery can be a big deal, there's loads of stuff running about in defunct liveries and if they cite that as a reason then its a total contempt for the passengers.

But this is all fictional because the 'can do' attitude of other companies, those using LHCS to combat their unit shortages and what have you doesn't seem to apply to DFT-GTR

Indeed - look at all the different liveries FGW has had when their 150s arrived, no storage until repainted there! Unfortunately it seems to be a typical case of lack of govia willpower. All faf to get ithemselves looking good, but sod the passengers with an easier solution in the meantime.

 

[Blindtraveler]

meanwhile in Scotland we've got a new railway opening soon which should have been run with refurbished 158s. A number of things have made these late but having 4 170s more might be handy at the mo. Im saddened the Southern GTR arnt acting better on this.

 

[physics34]

Don't see how the livery can be a big deal, there's loads of stuff running about in defunct liveries and if they cite that as a reason then its a total contempt for the passengers.

The diagram you mention starts out of oxted bay at 04+40 so that would be no good for a 6 car. The best diagram would involve the 0702 1008 1308 1608 1908 & 2226 (ECR) departures from London Bridge. That way you free up a 4 car and a 2 car. It's worth noting that the 0702, 1008 & 1308 are all formed of a single 2 car which would then be freed up. The 1608, 1908 & 2226 services would free up a 4 car unit as well for the evening peak.

But this is all fictional because the 'can do' attitude of other companies, those using LHCS to combat their unit shortages and what have you doesn't seem to apply to DFT-GTR

Oh of course Yeh, I forgot that that 06.38 from London bridge is the one that is bertged in oxtedbay.

I just remember being told that they didnt wanna run 171730 which was converted from 170392 until it had been repaintedfrom swt colours

 

[Stats]

GTR Southern's latest word from the July MTM
www.southernrailway.com/your-journey/customer-services/meet-the-manager-july-2015/

Our commitment is to introduce 10-carriage trains onto the Uckfield line when the platforms have been lengthened by Network Rail. In the meantime, the plan for the additional 12 diesel carriages, which we have now received, is to put them through a multi-million pound internal and external overhaul to make them compatible with our current fleet, and fit for purpose.

We are currently doing a detailed engineering assessment of these trains to understand all of the work required. When this is done, we will be able to programme in the work, some internally at our depots and some by external suppliers.

This will include work on the engines and wheelsets, as well as modifications to make the trains compatible with our existing diesel fleet, such as changes to the door mechanisms, driver’s cab system and new electronics to allow the additional units to 'communicate' with our current trains which at the moment they are unable to. This is a complex task as the trains we have received, whilst looking similar to our existing fleet, are technically very different and require a major overhaul.

 

[Southern Dvr]

The thing is, they are not doing these modifications on 2 out of the 3 units. They are looking at 1 unit and working on it. My point being that meanwhile there are 2 units collecting dust, not moving, presumably they are being started up or the batteries will be dead by now, and the best thing to have done would have been to operate them as a fixed 6 car formation until such time as they decide what they are going to do with them.

The other option would be to get a 73/1 and a 442 and use that!
(I am fully aware why they can't!)

 

[physics34]

The thing is, they are not doing these modifications on 2 out of the 3 units. They are looking at 1 unit and working on it. My point being that meanwhile there are 2 units collecting dust, not moving, presumably they are being started up or the batteries will be dead by now, and the best thing to have done would have been to operate them as a fixed 6 car formation until such time as they decide what they are going to do with them.

The other option would be to get a 73/1 and a 442 and use that!
(I am fully aware why they can't!)

Well the 16.08 and 19.08 LBG to ucks were 2 vice 6 last night for the second time this week. Anything will do!

 

[childwallblues]

Well the 16.08 and 19.08 LBG to ucks were 2 vice 6 last night for the second time this week. Anything will do!

One occasion when I actually feel sorry for some travellers down south. When Northern received 150s from the Midlands in some cases we had two car 150s in two different liveries in service.

 

[Minstral25]

Well the 16.08 and 19.08 LBG to ucks were 2 vice 6 last night for the second time this week. Anything will do!

I think Southern and Thameslink are having a lot of stock problems at the moment as its not just the Uckfield line with short forms, we are getting a lot down the Redhill Route too. Normal 12's or 8's appearing as 4's and also a lot of cancellations being blamed on Staff missing. Fortunately its summer so the trains are lightly loaded at peak otherwise a lot more would be left behind

 

[Southern Dvr]

It's all down to staff shortage.

A lot less engineers, guards & drivers doing overtime this time of year.

 

[delt1c]

It's all down to staff shortage.

A lot less engineers, guards & drivers doing overtime this time of year.

I can see staff shortages causing cancelations , but not short formations as there should be stock available to strengthen from the canceled services. Unless the shortage is maintenence staff

 

[Minstral25]

It's all down to staff shortage.

A lot less engineers, guards & drivers doing overtime this time of year.

Thanks - Yes I guessed that - Maintenance staff aren't obviously not there like drivers and guards but lack of means less trains available

 

[tsr]

Thanks - Yes I guessed that - Maintenance staff aren't obviously not there like drivers and guards but lack of means less trains available

Many of the morning peak short formations and cancellations on the Redhill line this week have been down to driver or conductor sickness meaning many trains have had to be completely removed from service or diverted some way away - in other words, displaced.

 

[Yabbadabba]

The thing is, they are not doing these modifications on 2 out of the 3 units. They are looking at 1 unit and working on it. My point being that meanwhile there are 2 units collecting dust, not moving, presumably they are being started up or the batteries will be dead by now, and the best thing to have done would have been to operate them as a fixed 6 car formation until such time as they decide what they are going to do with them.

The other option would be to get a 73/1 and a 442 and use that!
(I am fully aware why they can't!)

If the three units sitting around were are technically useable then why not put them on three of the four Brighton-Ashford diagrams or maybe the third one on the Rye-Ashford diagram then at least it would free up 3x2 cars that are compatible with the rest of the Uckfield stock for strengthening. It's got to better than to have them sitting around being non productive, but I bet the bean counters have already poo-pood any such ideas.

 

[Southern Dvr]

If the three units sitting around were are technically useable then why not put them on three of the four Brighton-Ashford diagrams or maybe the third one on the Rye-Ashford diagram then at least it would free up 3x2 cars that are compatible with the rest of the Uckfield stock for strengthening. It's got to better than to have them sitting around being non productive, but I bet the bean counters have already poo-pood any such ideas.

There's only 2, as one is in bits in Selhurst shed. Safer to put them together as a 6 so you've got suitable rescue already there if it goes wrong. Remember this would only be a temporary fix until they can start actually refurbishing the things. But it won't happen because there's no such thing as a 'can do' attitude down here anymore!

 

[Yabbadabba]

There's only 2, as one is in bits in Selhurst shed. Safer to put them together as a 6 so you've got suitable rescue already there if it goes wrong. Remember this would only be a temporary fix until they can start actually refurbishing the things. But it won't happen because there's no such thing as a 'can do' attitude down here anymore!

They sent down four units so where's the fourth one then?

 

[physics34]

think the second one made it to selhurst depot.... correct me if i am wrong
.

 

[Yabbadabba]

think the second one made it to selhurst depot.... correct me if i am wrong
.

That would explain it, thanx for the update.

 

[Chrisgr31]

As they are planning to make the 3 car trains in to 2's and 4's, they need to work on two of the 3 coach units at once hence why 2 are in Selhurst.

Incidentally I wonder if they are not paying rent on the units until they are in service, and so therefore no incentive to actually bring them in early?

 

[HLE]

So scotrail 170's are being acquired by southern and chiltern are gaining TPE's units....

Two franchises with overloaded trains and they lose trains for other franchises, one of which currently has no work for those trains as the line is still being built.....

So who's getting shafted?

The rest of us who don't live in the south. Passengers and staff alike.

 

[47271]

Meanwhile, on the main line between Glasgow and Edinburgh...

http://m.heraldscotland.com/news/13621503.Packed_Edinburgh_train_like__last_plane_out_of_Saigon

It's quite a long piece featuring the usual suspects, but the two paras below tell us all we need to know:

A ScotRail spokeswoman said: "New electric trains will provide additional capacity and cleaner, greener journeys from 2017 as part of the wider electrification project.

"In the meantime we seek to make best use of train carriages at our disposal and match demand with supply as far as possible."

 

[Blindtraveler]

Not gone through all this yet however this line has always been prone to a few overloaded trains, esp when as now the Scottish Schools have gone back, most people are once again at work and the festival is on in Edinburgh. Interesting that during the upgrade work earlier in the summer the other 3 routes handled demand quite well but yet we get this once the forth, and admittedly main route reopens?
It is still a shame that we had to lose the sets when we did however it cant I guess be helped.

 

[387star]

when are these in service?

 

[Blindtraveler]

I think late next year??

 

[physics34]

Not sure we'll see them before Xmas! Work on 170422 is taking place at selhurst but at a slow pace

 

[Class377/5]

They will be in service next year prior to platform extensions being completed (no longer trains tho).

 

[physics34]

as mentioned in an earlier post the other three units should really be overhauled quickly and bought back into passenger service until they get the full refurbishment, fitting dellners to them quickly (for rescue purposes and in multiple with themselves) would obviously be needed. 170422 got fitted quickly enough.

Not good seeing stock sitting around for months while they are so desperately needed.

 

[paul1609]

If the three units sitting around were are technically useable then why not put them on three of the four Brighton-Ashford diagrams or maybe the third one on the Rye-Ashford diagram then at least it would free up 3x2 cars that are compatible with the rest of the Uckfield stock for strengthening. It's got to better than to have them sitting around being non productive, but I bet the bean counters have already poo-pood any such ideas.

Do the Scottish 170s have selective door opening within unit? Three Oaks and Doleham are 1 coach platforms Winchelsea & Appledore are 2. (not sure about Ham Street). Id guess the Southern SMS probably doesn't allow for 1 door operation at these stations and there won't be the stop boards etc for 3 car operation. There are 5 diagrams for Brighton-Ashford, the Rye Shuttles aren't self contained.

 

[Fincra5]

as mentioned in an earlier post the other three units should really be overhauled quickly and bought back into passenger service until they get the full refurbishment, fitting dellners to them quickly (for rescue purposes and in multiple with themselves) would obviously be needed. 170422 got fitted quickly enough.

Not good seeing stock sitting around for months while they are so desperately needed.

I believe there's a bit of work to do with them to make them compatible and up to standards with the SN 171 fleet.. even without a full refurb.