London Midland/Northern EMU changes speculation

[D365]

i have seen a couple of 319's in white assumed they were on trial/test running from wolverton, makes sense they are being operated by LM, I was told that Northamptons remaining 321 fleet are going to scotland, taking on 319's makes sense, as they are very cheaper to operate, have a good toe on acceleration in both modes, as for crew training its probably only a day/half day familiarisation with them, braking is the same etc, only difference is they are GTO operation, and have the GEC traction Package.

Thanks for your update, however I am surprised to not find it posted in the LM 319 Cascade Progress topic. The thread you have posted in here is for forum speculation, the Class 319 transfer (for the initial four/seven units at least) is most certainly confirmed

just to add the class 320 fleet is now uprated to 90mph so having the 321 augmentation will add to strengthen/lenghthen jobs

Am I correct in assuming that the seven Class 321s will be compatible with the existing Class 318/320 fleet? If so they may likely be used in a common pool, if shortened to 3-car units.

 

[northwichcat]

Thanks for your update, however I am surprised to not find it posted in the LM 319 Cascade Progress topic. The thread you have posted in here is for forum speculation, the Class 319 transfer (for the initial four/seven units at least) is most certainly confirmed

What is confusing is when the moderators merged 3 threads in to 2, they put all the ones relating to Northern giving up the 323s in this thread but left the opening post about LM getting 319s to replace 321s, which was long since confirmed.
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Well this morning DfT have indicated 4 car formations will be used on North TPE 'semi-fast' services and 8 car formations on North TPE 'inter urban' services. However, for Manchester-Preston they've just indicated 'longer trains' so no indication of what the maximum length formations will be.

http://maps.dft.gov.uk/northern-powerhouse/index.html

 

[Class377/5]

Works are planned at Huddersfield Station to allow for additional capacity for eight-car trains to operate on cross-Pennine inter-urban services, and four-car trains to/from Leeds and Manchester and three-car trains between Huddersfield and Sheffield.

I read that 8 car TPE, 4 car Northern with 185s on the Sheffield trains.

 

[northwichcat]

I read that 8 car TPE, 4 car Northern with 185s on the Sheffield trains.

I don't. From December 17 Northern won't be running those services, unless DfT mean 4 cars on Huddersfield-Bradford-Leeds which seems unlikely. While I think 185s on Penistone Line services is as likely as 175s transferring to Northern.

When Network Rail drew up their CP5 plans it looks like 4 car 170s (or equivalent) were intended to be used on TPE semi-fast services between Manchester and Leeds (at least initially) as well as on Hope Valley stoppers

Platform lengthening at the stations identified :
 4x 24m car length at Mossley Down, Greenfield Down, Marsden, Slaithwaite, Mouldsworth, Delamere, Cuddington, Greenbank, Plumley Down, Ashley Down, Hathersage and Grindleford
 4 x 23m car length at Dove Holes, Chapel-en-le Frith, Middlewood, Woodsmoor, Humphrey Park, Glazebrook Down, New Lane, Bescar Lane, Moses Gate, Hall i’th’wood, Darwen, Ramsgreave & Wilpshire, Langho, Whalley and Clitheroe
 6 x 24m car length at Liverpool South Parkway Up and Down fast platforms, Widnes, Warrington Central and Newton-le-Willows
 3 x 23m car at Bamber Bridge Up

 

[Class377/5]

I don't. From December 17 Northern won't be running those services, unless DfT mean 4 cars on Huddersfield-Bradford-Leeds which seems unlikely. While I think 185s on Penistone Line services is as likely as 175s transferring to Northern.

When Network Rail drew up their CP5 plans it looks like 4 car 170s (or equivalent) were intended to be used on TPE semi-fast services between Manchester and Leeds as well as on Hope Valley stoppers

Because they won't be then won't think things will change. You've put things changing, doesn't mean they won't again.

 

[FordFocus]

Much earlier I said there were advantages over using 350s over 319s after you dismissed any benefits of using 350s over 319s, that doesn't mean it's "my solution." It certainly wasn't me who started speculation about 350s going to Northern! For all we know it could be the ROSCOs themselves circulating stories as if TOCs think there's a lot of interest in the stock they currently have they might be willing to pay more to keep it.

Hmm. Okay, I've made my point though on 350s though

Is it not probable that some TPE crews (who sign 185s and 350s) will transfer to Northern as work transfers which initially will include working 185 operated services?

Depends on the ITT. I suspect Blackpool and Barrow will transfer to Northern so there will be some form of 185 competency floating around. It's a case of what trains are used. I was referring to the potential 350 training as electric traction for drivers is a different package to DMUs. It's messy affair.

As the Pacers go Northern are likely going to have to train more drivers on additional types of Sprinters, as well as Turbostars and a new type of DMU, so is EMU training really such a big deal in the grand scheme of things?

Yes. It's a different package between EMUs and DMUs but I was referring to the idea of 350s in addition to 319s instead of just 319s for the extra training days.. Whilst on the subject Turbostars share some minor similarities to early Sprinters with transmission principle, controls (3 step, 7 power notches), train wires, isolations, air systems will differ and be in different locations but it's quite easy to get familiar with. Electrics are different and require more days if you've never signed EMUs.

 

[childwallblues]

Your solution to a tiny problem is to bring in 350s which is a more expensive stock to lease, probably can't be maintain as Allerton as they won't be able to do the work because of the amount of 319s going to Northern, so you have to look elsewhere.

Allerton already maintains 28 x Class 156 units.

 

[FordFocus]

They need to be shifted to somewhere. New depot mooted for Buxton or Blackburn to maintain them but that will be for the new franchise holder to decide.

 

[northwichcat]

New depot mooted for Buxton

Interesting given that will require more ECS mileage than keeping them at Allerton and also considering Buxton-Hazel Grove was on Rail North's list of priorities for future electrification projects (which DfT are supposed to be considering.)

 

[FordFocus]

Just as a servicing depot for light maintenance, probably to free up Allerton, NH and Longsight.

Allerton are getting loads of 319s coming.

 

[northwichcat]

Allerton are getting loads of 319s coming.

Only 20 confirmed for certain. Even keeping those post-2016 isn't 100% confirmed until the agreement for the next franchise is signed.

free up Allerton, NH and Longsight

NH should be off-loading all it's 142s in the next few years. Although, they may get the diesel replacements in lieu.

 

[BurtonM]

A depot in Buxton is pretty pie in the sky IMO. Rather remote place.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

A depot in Buxton is pretty pie in the sky IMO. Rather remote place.

I am unsure of what I remember, but do any of the tunnels from Buxton to Manchester pose a problem for certain classes of rolling stock?

 

[childwallblues]

Interesting given that will require more ECS mileage than keeping them at Allerton and also considering Buxton-Hazel Grove was on Rail North's list of priorities for future electrification projects (which DfT are supposed to be considering.)

ECS not required if the 156 are diagrammed to the Manchester Oxford Road to Liverpool Lime Street service.

 

[northwichcat]

ECS not required if the 156 are diagrammed to the Manchester Oxford Road to Liverpool Lime Street service.

There's still a short amount of ECS required but like I said I would imagine it would be less (on average) if they were kept at Allerton than at Buxton.

 

[davyp]

And at least 5 (probably up to 7) 2 car sets stabled at Buxton between 12.30 am and 6.00 am. Why not use the down-time to do the more simple maintenance?
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And in addition, the empty stock movements to New Mills Central and Chinley (curently from either Stockport or Newton Heath) could also be stabled at any Buxton "depot.

 

[Bevan Price]

They need to be shifted to somewhere. New depot mooted for Buxton or Blackburn to maintain them but that will be for the new franchise holder to decide.

Or even an upgraded Springs Branch, according to one version I heard.............

 

[brick60000]

Saw a news article relating to the 323s on BBC today: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-34040948

 

[D365]

Saw a news article relating to the 323s on BBC today: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-34040948

A dedicated thread for discussing matters relating to the Class 323 withdrawal/transfer has been created earlier in the day.

 

[northwichcat]

Not sure if TfGM know something new or if they've made an educated guess

Rolling Stock Cascade – loss of Class 323 units
4.1 It was announced on 24 August 2015 by Porterbrook Rail Leasing that 17
Class 323 electric units which are currently operated by Northern Rail will
transfer to the London Midland franchise from 1 April 2016 (the start of the
new franchise). Class 323 trains currently provide the majority of services
on the following routes:
• Manchester-Stoke-on-Trent (stopping);
• Manchester-Crewe (stopping);
• Manchester-Hadfield; and
• Manchester-Manchester Airport (stopping).
4.2 The rationale given by the leasing company is that it will represent better
value for money having all Class 323 units in one single geographic area.
There is concern over the type of train units which may replace the 323s,
however the next Northern franchise includes requirements for significant
investment in new rolling stock.
4.3 The three bidders for the Northern franchise have been aware of the
situation with the 323 units for some time and will therefore have had time
to make the necessary amendments to their rolling stock and timetable
proposals. The winning franchise bidder will be announced in December
2015 when rolling stock proposals will be outlined to the public.
4.4 TfGM will work with winning bidders to ensure that replacement rolling
stock would meet requirements of the timetable and would not impact
negatively on journey times.

http://www.transportforgreatermanch...mittee_-_25_september_2015_-_meeting_papers_-

 

[BurtonM]

2.10 Praise received by Northern Rail’s passengers almost doubled in Period 4
and also saw a 133% increase year on year.

Ah good, people have started being nice to Northern passengers.

 

[FordFocus]

A depot in Buxton is pretty pie in the sky IMO. Rather remote place.

It was a serious suggestion at one point by Northern and representatives from DfT attending and examining.

There are more suitable places I'll admit for it but it was an option because of the availability of cheap stabling space and potential fuelling facilities. A drivers depot at the site too to allow for shunting movements. This would have freed up space at Newton Heath for more exams and some of the displaced DMUs from Allerton.

 

[Hophead]

from the TfGM quote:
The rationale given by the leasing company is that it will represent better value for money having all Class 323 units in one single geographic area.

To be honest, I'm not at all sure what business it is of the train owners to be deciding on what represents "value for money". The DfT funds the railway and it is up to them to pay for whatever unit allocations they deem appropriate.

It's entirely possible, of course, that the department wishes to make the change but is continuing to pretend that rolling-stock allocations are nothing to do with them and so hides behind the apparently "independent" decisions of the railway industry.

 

[northwichcat]

To be honest, I'm not at all sure what business it is of the train owners to be deciding on what represents "value for money". The DfT funds the railway and it is up to them to pay for whatever unit allocations they deem appropriate.

It's entirely possible, of course, that the department wishes to make the change but is continuing to pretend that rolling-stock allocations are nothing to do with them and so hides behind the apparently "independent" decisions of the railway industry.

The thing that doesn't make sense with relation to the 323s is Porterbrook seem to have decided they want all the 323s together but not at Northern. While they might like one agreement for leasing all the 323s trying to get LM to take on all the 323s might be harder than getting Northern to take them all on. The historic plan for the Northern 323s to go to LM means little now that LM have received additional 350s in lieu.

Also doing that does not guarantee that Northern will take on more of Porterbrook's off-lease 319s. While 319s are for some North West services it could DfT agree with franchise bidders that trying to put 319s on certain services isn't viable and look an alternative cascade or new build. Network Rail have even said the continued use of 6 car DMUs (like doubled 185s) may provide better value for money on peak time Manchester to Preston services post-electrification than 8 car 319s but of course Network Rail aren't saying a 6 car 185 would be better than a 6 car 323.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Network Rail have even said the continued use of 6 car DMUs (like doubled 185s) may provide better value for money on peak time Manchester to Preston services post-electrification than 8 car 319s but of course Network Rail aren't saying a 6 car 185 would be better than a 6 car 323.

Do you have a source for that ?

 

[northwichcat]

Do you have a source for that ?

I have posted the exact quote numerous times on here before but haven't got time to dig it out again. It was in the hundreds of pages they released to accompany their Ordsall Chord plans.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I have posted the exact quote numerous times on here before but haven't got time to dig it out again. It was in the hundreds of pages they released to accompany their Ordsall Chord plans.

Northern RUS from May 2011 possibly ?

 

[WatcherZero]

Well early on the Ordsall Chord was only going to support 6x23m now thankfully it will support 8x20m max length formations.

 

[Class 170101]

A depot in Buxton is pretty pie in the sky IMO. Rather remote place.

Probably no more remote than Machynlleth for ATW I would have thought.

 

[Whistler40145]

Buxton isn't just a remote location, there's also a restriction on which Classes of DMU can work this line.