Add-on fare to use Off-peak return in peak.

[AM9]

My wife has to travel from St Albans to Deal one evening next week and back the next afternoon. ending up on Thameslink in the peak (16:30 to 19:01). Ticket with NSE card is £26.65 via HS1, (with restriction 4F).
I would be grateful if somebody can help with the following:
Can she buy a single ticket from Elstree to SAC to allow travel home in the peak?
What type is it (excess, outboundary etc.) where should she buy it SAC, STP or at SAC gate?
Is there a way that she can avoid having to get a slow train that stops at ELS?

 

[Hadders]

Restriction code 4F is quite nasty as it restricts travel out of St Pancras in the evening peak by virtue of us having to refer to code 7E.

I can't see any suitable splitting opportunities to get round the time restriction. I'm assuming your wife hasn't got a season ticket of any description.

You'll need an Anytime Day Single from St Pancras to St Albans costing £11.50 to travel from St Pancras during the evening peak. The return portion of a St Albans to Deal ticket is not valid to leave St Pancras during the evening peak - Elstree is not relevant here.

An alternative is to buy a St Albans-Deal off-peak return not valid on HS1 which is £26.55. This ticket has no evening peak restrictions from St Pancras. You could either suffer the longer journey time or purchase a High Speed Upgrade allowing it to be used on the HS service.

I'm not an expert on HS upgrades and I can't find any pricing information on Southeastern's website but looking at BR Fares a single upgrade appears to be £5.80 each way (there is an off peak return upgrade at £5.50 but I think this the return has to be made on the same day as the outward).

I'm reasonably certain that the Network Card minimum fare doesn't apply to HS upgrades. Perhaps someone with better knowledge of HS upgrades could confirm.

 

[talldave]

HS1 upgrades can't be discounted with a railcard in my experience. No idea why, since every other ticket for use on HS1 can have a railcard discount applied.

But Hadders' suggestion of the slower ticket with HS1 upgrades looks like a good workaround.

 

[AM9]

Thanks for the tips guys, I'll pass them on. It seems that NRE is now saying that an 18:00 departure from SAC needs an anytime ticket (presumably because of HS1 peak restrictions).
It might end up as an operation stack avoiding jaunt along the M20!
I thought that returns from outside the travelcard zone weren't subject to the northbound peak restrictions. I wonder if the Thameslink TOC will still insist on these restrictions when the full Thameslink service is running with all the additional capacity that the 700s will bring?

 

[Hadders]

I thought that returns from outside the travelcard zone weren't subject to the northbound peak restrictions. I wonder if the Thameslink TOC will still insist on these restrictions when the full Thameslink service is running with all the additional capacity that the 700s will bring?

This only applies to fares that are set by Thameslink. Unfortunately St ALbans to Deal is set by Southeastern.

I think the restriction from St Pancras on the outward leg in the evening peak is unintended from what I can see. The restriction comes from the reference to restriction 9J which appears to be to restrict journeys on the Midland Mainline rather than the High Speed line. The restriction was not an issue in the pre-HS days but now HS trains depart from St Pancras it's had the effect of restricting them too which I suspect was not the intention.

They won't remove evening peak restrictions when the 700's come in - they will lose too much money if they do.

 

[clagmonster]

Looking at this I think I would buy the following:
St Albans City - Deal saver return, route not HS1 £26.55
Alternate route excess on OUT portion to Any Permitted, which costs half the difference
between the fares, so (£26.65-£26.55)/2=£0.05
Deal - London Terminals HS Upgrade single £3.90

Total £30.50

 

[Hadders]

Looking at this I think I would buy the following:
St Albans City - Deal saver return, route not HS1 £26.55
Alternate route excess on OUT portion to Any Permitted, which costs half the difference
between the fares, so (£26.65-£26.55)/2=£0.05
Deal - London Terminals HS Upgrade single £3.90

Total £30.50

Excellent suggestion! I think you might need to persist to get the excess issued given that it's only 10p more for any Any Permited (although the reason here is the timing restrictions!)

I was at Stratford International earlier so did some enquiring about HS supplements. You can get a discount with a Network Railcard but only at weekends as it's subject to the £13 minimum fare on weekdays. So, the OP's wife would need to pay £2 more than the price quoted above.

I would try and get the excess issued at St Albans then get the HS supplement at Deal on the return. I think they sell them on-board (perhaps the OP's wife could ask on the outward journey)

 

[bb21]

Given that the supplement was intended as a quicker alternative to issuing a proper change of route excess, minimum fare being applicable is a disgrace.

 

[Hadders]

Given that the supplement was intended as a quicker alternative to issuing a proper change of route excess, minimum fare being applicable is a disgrace.

I agree. Particularly as you can get a Network Railcard discount on a Plusbus ticket on a weekday (within the Network Area of course!).

The clerk I spoke to thought you could get the discount but when I asked her to pull it up on her screen for a weekday it showed a minimum fare of £13.

 

[AM9]

Looking at this I think I would buy the following:
St Albans City - Deal saver return, route not HS1 £26.55
Alternate route excess on OUT portion to Any Permitted, which costs half the difference
between the fares, so (£26.65-£26.55)/2=£0.05
Deal - London Terminals HS Upgrade single £3.90

Total £30.50

That sounds better although as you say, getting an excess may be difficult. Would the SAC gate be better acquainted with the rules than the booking office?
Interestingly, the HS1 ticket with its 4F restriction also then includes the 7E and 9J restrictions. The 'not HS1' ticket only has a 4J restriction.

 

[clagmonster]

I think what I would be tempted to do is purchase the three tickets in three separate transactions, that way when requesting the excess and the supplement, the clerks can't insist on just issuing the any permitted ticket.

 

[Hadders]

I think what I would be tempted to do is purchase the three tickets in three separate transactions, that way when requesting the excess and the supplement, the clerks can't insist on just issuing the any permitted ticket.

That's good advice. I'd buy the ticket on-line then there are then effectively four places you can get the change of route excess:

1. St Albans ticket office
2. Thameslink ticket office at St Pancras
3. East Midlands Trains ticket office at St Pancras. If you're still struggling then try...
4. VTEC ticket office across the road at Kings Cross

In theory the excess is available on board at no extra cost although I suspect the on-board manager will want to sell an upgrade rather than an excess.

The HS Supplement for the return should be a far easier thing to purchase. I suspect Deal ticket office would do it without question, alternatively the on-board manager could do it.

 

[talldave]

So why no Gold Card discount on HS1 supplements?

 

[Hadders]

You can get a Gold Card discount but not a Network Card discount as it has a £13 minimum fare on weekdays. The discount is allowed at weekends.

 

[talldave]

You can get a Gold Card discount but not a Network Card discount as it has a £13 minimum fare on weekdays. The discount is allowed at weekends.

Not at a St Pancras Southeastern TVM I can't :cry:

And BR Fares "removes" the upgrade from the single tickets list when I select Annual Gold Card?

 

[Hadders]

Not at a St Pancras Southeastern TVM I can't :cry:

And BR Fares "removes" the upgrade from the single tickets list when I select Annual Gold Card?

Interesting. I will do some digging next time I'm passing.

Out of interest I couldn't even find the HS upgrades on the TVM at St Pancras. How do you get them to show?

 

[talldave]

Interesting. I will do some digging next time I'm passing.

Out of interest I couldn't even find the HS upgrades on the TVM at St Pancras. How do you get them to show?

Hmmm trying to remember. I select STP to GRV, then High Speed, single, and the upgrade is offered as an alternative to a full price ticket; it's £4.10 but no railcard discount is allowed. And of course it doesn't work the barriers.

 

[paul1609]

If a Gold Card discount was available on hs supplements a lot of people would swap from full price hs seasons to not hs seasons and use the supplements on the way home. Me included.