Engineering trains collide during possession near Cumnock in Ayrshire

[Baxenden Bank]

How on earth did we manage without 1000T cranes?

When I first started work on the railway I knew a man who reinstalled the throat of St Pancras station in 24 hours after a German bomb took the lot out.

All on his own? WOW!

 

[talltim]

All on his own? WOW!

Luckily his local model shop had lots of Peco in stock.

 

[lincolnshire]

How on earth did we manage without 1000T cranes?

When I first started work on the railway I knew a man who reinstalled the throat of St Pancras station in 24 hours after a German bomb took the lot out.

its very true the above, how did they mange without all these road cranes, the crane hire company must be rubbing there hands and praying for the next mishap to occur. Who will be footing the bill for this one then I wonder?

 

[Chris M]

its very true the above, how did they mange without all these road cranes, the crane hire company must be rubbing there hands and praying for the next mishap to occur. Who will be footing the bill for this one then I wonder?

The taxpayer.
I expect that NR will be responsible for paying the crane hire company's invoice and (probably) any compensation due to anyone outside the rail industry. There will then be a lot of bureaucracy (not free by any stretch of the imagination) as the money-go-round figures out who has to pay for what and why. This money-go-round is funded by the taxpayer directly (in the case of NR's players in it) and indirectly (in terms of franchising/contract/etc costs for private company's players)

The taxpayer will also fund the RAIB investigation, and any police, ambulance or fire service attendance required (please note I am explicitly NOT complaining about these!).

 

[lincolnshire]

The taxpayer.
I expect that NR will be responsible for paying the crane hire company's invoice and (probably) any compensation due to anyone outside the rail industry. There will then be a lot of bureaucracy (not free by any stretch of the imagination) as the money-go-round figures out who has to pay for what and why. This money-go-round is funded by the taxpayer directly (in the case of NR's players in it) and indirectly (in terms of franchising/contract/etc costs for private company's players)

The taxpayer will also fund the RAIB investigation, and any police, ambulance or fire service attendance required (please note I am explicitly NOT complaining about these!).

Actually guessed that this would be the case, yet another taxpayer,s expense due to someones cock up. It does make you wonder if some people running these jobs know what they are doing or is it again the lack of experience staff on the job?

 

[Tim R-T-C]

So if it got billed back to DRS, they would just factor the cost into their next NR invoice, or invoice to their other customers who would inevitably have to pass the cost on to their consumers.

Like it or not, inevitably everything gets billed to us in the end.

 

[crispy1978]

https://mobile.twitter.com/nationalrailenq/status/628237413643612160/photo/1

 

[LAX54]

"Carnage", by definition, includes major loss of life. Yet another word that seems to be used for exaggeration these days...

'Carnage' has been used on the Railways for as long as I can remember, used to denote chaos and mayhem, even the rush hours when the job goes up the wall it's described as Carnage !
So it may well be in the dictionary as that, but it also has a railway meaning !

 

[JAMBO]

Be interesting to see what speed the train was doing in the worksite on the download, from here it looks a hell of a lot faster than 5mph to cause damage like that.

 

[455driver]

Be interesting to see what speed the train was doing in the worksite on the download, from here it looks a hell of a lot faster than 5mph to cause damage like that.

It can be doing up to 40 when inside a possession but only 5 in a worksite.

 

[najaB]

Be interesting to see what speed the train was doing in the worksite on the download, from here it looks a hell of a lot faster than 5mph to cause damage like that.

Not necessarily, as posted above it was a fully-loaded ballast train (think 1000+ tons) running into the back of empty wagons. Even at 5 or 10mph it's going to take tens of feet to stop. That is more than enough to push a few wagons off the road.

 

[LAX54]

Not necessarily, as posted above it was a fully-loaded ballast train (think 1000+ tons) running into the back of empty wagons. Even at 5 or 10mph it's going to take tens of feet to stop. That is more than enough to push a few wagons off the road.

Would have pushed them like 'toys' be interesting to see how long it takes to re=open the line, NR when they respond to an incident tend to pull out all the stops and do a good job in a very short space of time, its' only 'planned' work that seems to fall flat on it's face !

 

[Ploughman]

As stated in post 14.
Speed could be up to 40 depending on if the trains concerned are inside or outside the Engineering Supervisors worksite marker boards.

Looking at the photos I wonder if sighting may be an issue with the surrounding terrain and what looks like a fairly tight curve.

 

[Carntyne]

Details of the recovery op.

https://www.scotrail.co.uk/about-scotrail/news/buses-replace-trains-between-kilmarnock-and-dumfries

As a result of an incident on Saturday 1 August involving engineering trains working near New Cumnock, services between Glasgow Central – Carlisle are replaced by buses from Mon 3 August. Many apologies if you are affected.

The rail line between Kilmarnock and Dumfries is expected to remain closed until Monday, August 17, while engineers work to remove 18 derailed freight wagons and a locomotive from a site near Cumnock in Ayrshire.

To remove the wagons, engineers will first construct an access road to the derailment location and then create an area to site the 1,000tn crane required to lift the vehicles back onto the line.

Work to create the road and bring in the crane will begin on Tuesday 4 August, and has been further complicated by the need to ensure there are no mine-workings beneath the derailment.

Once on site, the operation to assemble the crane and remove the derailed wagons and engine will take around 10 days, followed by an estimated three days to repair significant track damage.

The derailment occurred at around 11:20am on Saturday when two ballast trains bringing materials into a track renewals worksite collided. No-one was injured as a result of the incident, which is currently under investigation by the Rail Accident Investigation Branch (RAIB).

Due to the incident, train services between Glasgow Central and Carlisle, via Dumfries, are suspended between Kilmarnock and Dumfries, with Auchinleck, New Cumnock, Kirkconnel and Sanquhar stations being served by replacement buses.

ScotRail customers travelling between Glasgow and Carlisle can use their tickets on TransPennine Express and Virgin Trains’ west coast mainline services.

 

[JAMBO]

It can be doing up to 40 when inside a possession but only 5 in a worksite.

I know how a possession works... Worked plenty of them, I'm stating the fact that our works safety brief after the incident quoted the speeds which is max 5 or under ES instructions, so we are assuming the train collided within the worksite.

 

[GB]

It can be doing up to 40 when inside a possession but only 5 in a worksite.

A train can technically run at 20mph+ in a worksite if the ES authorizes it.

A worksite (marker board to marker board) within a possession can be x miles long with the actual area of work only being a few hundred yards. Hence the need need to often do more than the standard 5mph.

That said the driver can still do 5mph throughout if he so wishes as the buck ultimately stops with them.

 

[455driver]

I am a passenger driver, I thought I done alright on the speeds in a possession!

 

[JAMBO]

A train can technically run at 20mph+ in a worksite if the ES authorizes it.

A worksite (marker board to marker board) within a possession can be x miles long with the actual area of work only being a few hundred yards. Hence the need need to often do more than the standard 5mph.

That said the driver can still do 5mph throughout if he so wishes as the buck ultimately stops with them.

Yeah, the last one I did the worksite was several miles, and so dropping down to the marker board I was given authority by the ES to increase my speed. But it's just common sense on these sites to just run at caution. I've often found them a minefield, body's everywhere. So just take it canny. To to be fair the ES I've dealt with have been spot on and very professional and knew what they were doing, and did it all by the book,but there are also some incompetent track workers employed on these sites who will tell you any bull****, you just got to keep on the ball, that's why it makes me wonder at what speed this driver was actually doing on impact.

 

[No1driver]

So if it got billed back to DRS, they would just factor the cost into their next NR invoice, or invoice to their other customers who would inevitably have to pass the cost on to their consumers.

Like it or not, inevitably everything gets billed to us in the end.

Why would DRS pick up the tab? Was it one of their drivers ? Do you know for sure????

 

[Daz9284]

Surely NR can claim back the ££ from whoever is deemed responsible; ie FLHH driver(s), DRS for faulty loco etc

On the highways, if there is a crash and the road or furniture is damaged, the highway authority claims it all back from the insurance company of the vehicle that caused the collision/damage

Regards
Darryl

 

[SPADTrap]

A train can technically run at 20mph+ in a worksite if the ES authorizes it.

A worksite (marker board to marker board) within a possession can be x miles long with the actual area of work only being a few hundred yards. Hence the need need to often do more than the standard 5mph.

That said the driver can still do 5mph throughout if he so wishes as the buck ultimately stops with them.

While the ES can authorise it we still have to make that 20mph move at caution so that leaves the responsibility with us, that is where the greyness begins don't you think?

 

[berwicksfinest]

While the ES can authorise it we still have to make that 20mph move at caution so that leaves the responsibility with us, that is where the greyness begins don't you think?

The ES can quote what he likes, the famous phrase "be able to stop short of any obstruction" is pretty definitive

 

[455driver]

The ES can quote what he likes, the famous phrase "be able to stop short of any obstruction" is pretty definitive

The phrase which is no longer used, simply because it isn't needed!

 

[Chris M]

Surely NR can claim back the ££ from whoever is deemed responsible; ie FLHH driver(s), DRS for faulty loco etc

On the highways, if there is a crash and the road or furniture is damaged, the highway authority claims it all back from the insurance company of the vehicle that caused the collision/damage

Regards
Darryl

Someone, most likely NR, has to stump up the cash initially. Claiming it back is not free, particularly in a structure like the railways where exactly who is responsible for what in which circumstances is a minefield of regulations, contracts and lawyers.

With every party this just gets more complicated.
NR own the infrastructure
Company A was contracted to do X, who subcontracted Company B for Y, who subcontracted Company C for Z.
Track workers were employed by companies D, E and F.
The first train was operated by G, who contracted the maintenance of the loco to H. It was hauling wagons owned by H maintained by I.
The second train was operated by J...

 

[Cletus]

http://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/news/kilmarnockdumfries-derailment-recovery-works-update

The rail line between Kilmarnock and Dumfries is expected to remain closed until Monday, August 17, while engineers work to remove 18 derailed freight wagons and a locomotive from a site near Cumnock in Ayrshire.

To remove the wagons, engineers will first construct an access road to the derailment location and then create an operating pad to site the 1,000tn crane required to lift the vehicles back onto the line.

Work to create the road and bring in the crane will commence on Tuesday, August 4, and has been further complicated by the need to ensure there are no mine-workings located in the area beneath the derailment.

Once on site, the operation to assemble the crane and then remove the derailed wagons and engine will take around 10 days to complete, followed by an estimated three days to repair significant track damage caused by the incident.

David Dickson, infrastructure director for the ScotRail Alliance said: “Every effort is being made to recover the line and restore a full service for passengers as quickly as possible.

“Our engineers will be working around-the-clock to remove the derailed wagons and repair the damaged track beneath.

“This is a very complex operation and we will need to build an access road for a 1,000tn crane, which will then have to be built on site, before we can remove the wagons and repair the track.

"We understand the inconvenience this incident has caused passengers and replacement buses are in operation to serve the stations affected by the recovery works.”

The derailment occurred at around 11:20am on Saturday, August 1, when two ballast trains bringing materials into a track renewals worksite collided. No-one was injured as a result of the incident, which is currently under investigation by the Rail Accident Investigation Branch (RAIB).

Due to the incident, train services between Glasgow Central and Carlisle, via Dumfries, are suspended between Kilmarnock and Dumfries, with Auchinleck, New Cumnock, Kirkconnel and Sanquhar stations being served by replacement buses.

ScotRail customers travelling between Glasgow and Carlisle can use their tickets on TransPennine Express and Virgin Trains’ west coast mainline services.

 

[Carlisle]

Someone, most likely NR, has to stump up the cash initially. Claiming it back is not free, particularly in a structure like the railways where exactly who is responsible for what in which circumstances is a minefield of regulations, contracts and lawyers.

With every party this just gets more complicated.
NR own the infrastructure
Company A was contracted to do X, who subcontracted Company B for Y, who subcontracted Company C for Z.
Track workers were employed by companies D, E and F.
The first train was operated by G, who contracted the maintenance of the loco to H. It was hauling wagons owned by H maintained by I.
The second train was operated by J...

Post of the week

 

[GB]

Most (all?) TOCs and FOCs have a cap on the maximum amount they have to payout following an incident such as this so any shortfall will be picked up by Network Rail.

 

[Ploughman]

A train can technically run at 20mph+ in a worksite if the ES authorizes it.

When I was involved in worksite planning the area of higher speed running had to be planned in to the method statement and physically marked on site.
In our case we used pairs of modified ES Marker boards showing a Blue light rather than a Yellow.
Within that area anyone working on the ground had to have lookout protection.
The usual reason for wanting the higher speed was for the Tracklayers uplifting track panels and relaying new sleepers to be able to move at a higher speed to reduce travel time.

 

[SPADTrap]

The ES can quote what he likes, the famous phrase "be able to stop short of any obstruction" is pretty definitive

Well, the famous phrase is proceed at caution.

 

[JAMBO]

DRS won't be billed anything, as it wasn't there drivers at the control of the 66, the other operator has the costs to pay.