AT300s confirmed for South West services by DfT

[D365]

Don't worry though - there will be lots of little trains running more frequently so its fine!

They said that about Operation Princess!

But I like to think that those in charge have learned from it.

 

[jimm]

I agree entirely with your point Jimm, but "haven't been built yet"???
Don't forget there are two undergoing testing at Old Dalby, which have also been running up and down a stretch of the ECML for a couple of months now.

Okay, there isn't one running around with a fully-kitted-out passenger interior in public service so that people can actually get on one and see whether it is a 'Voyager Mk2' or anything else. I don't know and nor do they and won't for some time yet, so maybe we could be spared yet more posts about how terrible IEPs/AT300s will be from people who 'know for sure' - they don't and will just have to hold fire a couple of years before they can tell us that they told us so.

All we need now is for someone to tell us they know for sure that the seats will be uncomfortable just from looking at a picture of the mock-up - or has someone done that already? It wouldn't surprise me if they had. After all we've just had someone saying up this thread they will abandon a partially underfloor-engined train for, er, a fully underfloor-engined train, so anything's possible...

They said that about Operation Princess!

But I like to think that those in charge have learned from it.

But Operation Princess saw hourly HSTs and Mk2 rakes with 460 or 380 seats replaced with half-hourly Voyagers (or of course still only hourly outside the core of the XC network) with either 200 or 250 seats just as rail passenger numbers were really starting to take off - with the results we see today.

IEPs/AT300s will carry rather more people than either type of Voyager, even in five-car formation, and on West Country services the five cars are clearly most likely to be seen running on their own when working the Exeter semi-fasts, which will of course be on an improved regular frequency, and west of Plymouth - where portion working of loco-hauled stock was a long-established fact of life before the HSTs arrived and where there will also be an improved frequency on the local services.

 

[sprinterguy]

Only sad thing is that chances of bacon, cooked fresh in a freshly made sandwitch for anyone with any ticket in any class woant be sold on the voyager IEP Trolley.

Though part of the specification for these trains is that they are able to produce one hundred cooked breakfasts in a two hour journey time, so in first class at the very least it looks like there'll be plenty of bacon for everyone. The ability of the trains to produce cooked bacon being, of course, an extremely important criterion upon which to judge them.

It's also, surely, a little bit early to judge what the catering arrangements (i.e. what is served from the trolley) will be on Great Western and the East Coast three or four years from now? There is also an option for a buffet ("Café-Bar") on these trains if desired.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I note there are only 7x9 coach trains but 22x5 coach trains, will 260m fit on most of the platforms or will it be 5 coach IEP replacing 8 coach HST?

Reportedly the idea is that all trains will be 9 or 10-car as far as Plymouth.

6 x 9-car units will provide an hourly (bi-hourly?) Paddington to Exeter semi-fast service.

There will be an hourly Paddington to Plymouth service formed of pairs of 5-car units, with one 5-car unit going forward to Penzance once every two hours.

 

[ainsworth74]

Just a microfleet of AT300s instead

Well yes but the AT300 is going to have rather a lot in common with the rest of GWs Class 800 fleet (actually isn't the only difference up-rated engines and larger fuel tanks?). Not quite the same as a micro-fleet of HSTs is it

 

[bnm]

Yeah one bloke bunging out large numbers of freshly made bacon sandwiches etc at £5 a pop (with very little waste at the end of the day) is obviously loss making but having 7 people offering really posh food (with lots of waste some days) obviously covers its costs!

I did see the figures about the losses by the TC service and they simply didn't add up at all, example, each item prepared by the chef allegedly lost £10 so a bacon sandwich cost £15 to make

4 people. Chef, Service Leader, two Pullman hosts. Two others in the crew will be assigned to the buffet and 1st Class trolley.

I saw figures too. Properly audited ones.

 

[ainsworth74]

I saw figures too. Properly audited ones.

And they said...

Don't leave us hanging, curious minds and all that

 

[bnm]

And they said...

Don't leave us hanging, curious minds and all that

That Travelling Chef services were loss making.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Okay, there isn't one running around with a fully-kitted-out passenger interior in public service so that people can actually get on one and see whether it is a 'Voyager Mk2' or anything else. I don't know and nor do they and won't for some time yet, so maybe we could be spared yet more posts about how terrible IEPs/AT300s will be from people who 'know for sure' - they don't and will just have to hold fire a couple of years before they can tell us that they told us so.

All we need now is for someone to tell us they know for sure that the seats will be uncomfortable just from looking at a picture of the mock-up - or has someone done that already? It wouldn't surprise me if they had. After all we've just had someone saying up this thread they will abandon a partially underfloor-engined train for, er, a fully underfloor-engined train, so anything's possible

Has anyone mentioned that they will also inherit the effluent stench in the vestibule areas yet?

 

[D365]

Has anyone mentioned that they will also inherit the effluent stench in the vestibule areas yet?

The IEP train specification tells otherwise!

Sorry to get in the way of a good laugh

 

[asylumxl]

All we need now is for someone to tell us they know for sure that the seats will be uncomfortable just from looking at a picture of the mock-up - or has someone done that already? It wouldn't surprise me if they had. After all we've just had someone saying up this thread they will abandon a partially underfloor-engined train for, er, a fully underfloor-engined train, so anything's possible...

I have been told by those in the know that these Japanese trains are the spawn of Satan, built as torture devices for the British public. The seats will violently restrain passengers, drips from the retention tanks will be used for water torture as the heat from the evil underfloor engines cooks them alive.

I also heard they're going to take our jobs and leach off the benefit system and in a few years we will all be speaking Japanese!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I think the south west can count itself very lucky that this procurement has got through so quickly and easily.
In most other new train scenarios (except for Electrostars ) there would have been a right royal battle over the specification and funding, with a lot of DfT meddling along the way related to the business case.
Any other train than an IEP would also have been problematic.
It just hits the current sweet spot of DfT favouritism, an established production run, and commonality for the TOC.
With delays to GW electrification it also provides a counter to local protests of cutting investment after the election.
Every IEP incremental order improves the business case for the original decision to go with the design.
We now have four large orders for a design which has yet to be accepted for service - it had better work!

Now can we have some decisions about the XC fleet, which soldiers on with insufficient stock with no apparent prospect of change before 2019?
They can't surely be expecting the HSTs to have another life after being discarded by FGW?

 

[Clip]

I wonder if those posters in the know could tell us all how awful the next set of trains are going to be when built in 2050 please - seeing as you have such great foresight and knowledge about these things to dismiss them out of hand.

And if you are right ill even cook you a bacon sarnie and bring it to your seat.

 

[HSTEd]

So the Penzance trains are being downgraded from the current formations to five multiple unit vehicles at the same frequency. With the idea that magical additional local trails will appear to take up the slack.

I seem to remember those trains being rather heavily loaded.
Sounds like an even more extreme version of Voyager syndrome to me.

 

[sprinterguy]

So the Penzance trains are being downgraded from the current formations to five multiple unit vehicles at the same frequency. With the idea that magical additional local trails will appear to take up the slack.

I'm not sure that there's much that's "magical" about class 158s, released from Bristol by the arrival of Network Turbos.

Is there much else outside of the London trains over the Penzance to Plymouth section at present? I'm not at all familiar with the current service patterns.

 

[Haydn1971]

Would anyone be able to offer a clear "simple" comparison of before and after ? Presumably the 5 car trains will run the regular service then these being replaced by either a 9 or 2x5 car unit at peak holiday times ?

 

[LexyBoy]

So the Penzance trains are being downgraded from the current formations to five multiple unit vehicles at the same frequency. With the idea that magical additional local trails will appear to take up the slack.

I seem to remember those trains being rather heavily loaded.
Sounds like an even more extreme version of Voyager syndrome to me.

Agreed, if they don't run either 5-car hourly or 10-car bi-hourly during the peaks (i.e. weekends and all of May-September) there will be a lot of standees.

2 x 9/10 car trains between Exeter and London OTOH would be overkill. Sounds familiar from the draft proposals for 4 trains to Bristol - focus on the "core" cities, regardless of actual demand. Hopefully things will pan out more sensibly.

 

[HSTEd]

I'm not sure that there's much that's "magical" about class 158s, released from Bristol by the arrival of Network Turbos.

I believe one of the primary problems on the section is the lack of capacity due to long section lengths.
When is the complete resignal due?

Also I will believe there will be additional Sprinters for Cornwall when I see them in Penzance station. There is still quite a long time for them to be expropriated by DfT for the North in an attempt to win votes.

Is there much else outside of the London trains over the Penzance to Plymouth section at present? I'm not at all familiar with the current service patterns.

XC trains and the local sprinters.

 

[sprinterguy]

Agreed, if they don't run either 5-car hourly or 10-car bi-hourly during the peaks (i.e. weekends and all of May-September) there will be a lot of standees.

I've only seen the briefest of summaries of the baseline proposal for the AT-300s, but it seemed to say that there would be an hourly AT-300 service from/to Penzance in the morning/evening peaks respectively, much as there is at present. I don't think the intention is to cut back on the current frequency.

 

[swt_passenger]

With the idea that magical additional local trails will appear to take up the slack.

That's what has been said, the info about other trains between Exeter, Plymouth and Penzance is in the publicly available direct award informatiion:

December 2018 - South West Services
• Standard pattern hourly service from London
running non-stop between Reading and Taunton
extending hourly to Plymouth and 2 hourly to
Penzance. Depending on stock choice trains may
split at Plymouth, with half the train continuing to
Penzance
• Rolling stock will be either refreshed High Speed
Trains, equipped with automatic doors and
accessible toilets, or new trains. A decision on
rolling stock will be taken by the Department for
Transport by June 2015
• The core intercity service will be supported by a
two hourly stopping service between Paddington
and Exeter to provide connectivity to the
intermediate stations. Paignton will be served by 3
intercity services each way (Mondays-Fridays)
• In partnership with Cornwall Council, FGW will
work to equip stations in Cornwall with Wi-Fi
• Air-conditioned 90mph Class 158s will replace
75mph Class 150s on Plymouth-Penzance local
services, with some extensions to Exeter
• The combination of local, inter-city and Cross
Country services should provide a 2tph service
frequency on the Cornish Main Line

https://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk...rbusiness/stakeholders report/nfgwf.pdf?la=en

 

[LexyBoy]

XC being only a few per day, and the sprinters being generally rammed (with a significant number doing almost the whole length).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I've only seen the briefest of summaries of the baseline proposal for the AT-300s, but it seemed to say that there would be an hourly AT-300 service from/to Penzance in the morning/evening peaks respectively, much as there is at present. I don't think the intention is to cut back on the current frequency.

OK, but if it's 5-car then that's quite a reduction in capacity vs a 8-car HST. I don't know what the loadings are like on weekday mornings though.

 

[MCR247]

Air-conditioned 90mph Class 158s will replace
75mph Class 150s on Plymouth-Penzance local
services, with some extensions to Exeter

I like that

 

[jimm]

So the Penzance trains are being downgraded from the current formations to five multiple unit vehicles at the same frequency. With the idea that magical additional local trails will appear to take up the slack.

I seem to remember those trains being rather heavily loaded.
Sounds like an even more extreme version of Voyager syndrome to me.

a. As I keep saying, portion working west of Plymouth was a fact of life pre-HST, so no first class or catering at all. Former senior BR manager Theo Steel says in an article about the railways in the West Country in the August Modern Railways that he thinks a mixed fleet of five and nine-car sets is a good idea, but what does he know?
b. Somewhere in the Class 800 thread there is a post by an FGW staff member about loadings on HSTs west of Plymouth after previous posts in the same vein as yours, stating that a five-car should cope just fine in Cornwall most of the time - and the people doing the stock diagramming probably have a fair idea of those services with heavy loadings which will actually need nine or 10 coaches. Unless of course FGW knows nothing about the loadings on its own trains and you have an encyclopaedic knowledge encompassing all Cornish services throughout the year...
c. There's nothing magical about the extra local services on the main line in Devon and Cornwall, their provision is a requirement of the franchise, with the stock needed already identified, as noted above.
d. And don't forget we are talking about Cornwall here, with a population not much more than that of the city of Manchester, scattered over a rather larger area, so unless they are all going to spend all day, every day, riding up and down on trains, they are not going to fill 600-plus seats on your preferred full-length AT300 formations, especially in the depths of winter, same as they don't fill 520-seat low density HSTs right now. Summer weekends are another matter, but the railways have had a few years' practice at revising diagrams to allow for them, so they might just allocate the odd long formation to venture across the Tamar.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

That's what has been said, the info about other trains between Exeter, Plymouth and Penzance is in the publicly available direct award informatiion:

That contract info reminds me that this order avoids expensive upgrades to the HSTs.
That must reduce the likelihood of these trains being reused elsewhere, as the cost/timing of any upgrade will devolve to a new TOC (eg XC, EMT).

 

[jimm]

XC being only a few per day, and the sprinters being generally rammed (with a significant number doing almost the whole length).

So 2tph is not good enough for you, is it? As opposed to the current situation where, outside the peaks, there is a basically hourly service, with longer gaps at times, and no predictable pattern to the service at all.

 

[LexyBoy]

So 2tph is not good enough for you, is it? As opposed to the current situation where, outside the peaks, there is a basically hourly service, with longer gaps at times, and no predictable pattern to the service at all.

I posted that before I'd seen swt_passenger's info - I was under the impression that other services would be as now with alternating hourly IC/local services. 2 tph is obviously a vast improvement, although I'm not clear where this is coming from - presumably more frequent local services, as I can't imagine XC running more services beyond Plymouth? (apologies if it's somewhere obvious and I'm too lazy to find it).

Decent frequency on the locals with quality stock will be very welcome - I'm only an occasional tourist and even I have had enough of 2 hours on a stuffed 150!

 

[sprinterguy]

I posted that before I'd seen swt_passenger's info - I was under the impression that other services would be as now with alternating hourly IC/local services. 2 tph is obviously a vast improvement, although I'm not clear where this is coming from - presumably more frequent local services, as I can't imagine XC running more services beyond Plymouth? (apologies if it's somewhere obvious and I'm too lazy to find it).

Correct, more frequent local trains between Penzance and Plymouth (with some extending through to Exeter wherever possible) using class 158s.

 

[al.currie93]

They can't surely be expecting the HSTs to have another life after being discarded by FGW?

Well that expectation has already happened with Scotrail, so I wouldn't dismiss it outright.

I like that

I do too, having spent an hour on one such 158 from Salisbury to Bath on Wednesday! Are they telling me it had a working air-con :P

 

[47802]

That contract info reminds me that this order avoids expensive upgrades to the HSTs.
That must reduce the likelihood of these trains being reused elsewhere, as the cost/timing of any upgrade will devolve to a new TOC (eg XC, EMT).

I think its a combo of factors, the ability of these trains to keep up with IEP's between London and Reading, the fact that HST's will likely need replacing at some point on this route and probably not by electrification anytime soon, the possibility that some have suggested that these units might initially cover for electric only IEP to Bristol/South Wales due to the electrification delays.

Regarding the HST's I have also seen suggestions that the alternate rolling stock solution mentioned in the FGW franchise agreement for Portsmouth Cardiff might be Scotrail style HST's.

Plus of course the cynic might say, look we have got you some nice new trains for the South West, now lets forget all that Dawlish diversion stuff.

 

[83G/84D]

I do not know the specifications of the AT300's but an ASLEF rep told me today that the drivers are concerned as they have been told that the 5 car AT300's will only have 3 engines.

That is less than a Voyager, maybe not a concern until you lose an engine and have to negotiate Rattery bank in drizzle in the leaf-fall season on 2 engines.

Is that right or has he been mis-informed?

 

[47802]

I do not know the specifications of the AT300's but an ASLEF rep told me today that the drivers are concerned as they have been told that the 5 car AT300's will only have 3 engines.

That is less than a Voyager, maybe not a concern until you lose an engine and have to negotiate Rattery bank in drizzle in the leaf-fall season on 2 engines.

Is that right or has he been mis-informed?

Even on 2 engines that's nearly 2000hp to shift a 5 car train