Pensioners' threat to bus routes

[Metroland]

Bus routes could be axed because free travel for pensioners has led to a rise in passenger numbers but a fall in revenue, operators have claimed.

Anglian Bus, of Beccles, Suffolk, and Norfolk Green of King's Lynn said full fare passengers are left at bus stops as vehicles are full with older people.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7456985.stm

 

[Tom B]

Heh. There's some blocks in Doncaster which are run by deckers specifically because of the number of OAPs.

It needs seriously sorting out - we are seeing fare paying passengers facing increases and cuts to services, whilst others travel free.

 

[me123]

On First Glasgow, there services are thankfully frequent enough to avoid the standing (well, at least from what I've seen) but at the same time almost all the pax are OAP. It's a wonder the buses make any money at all!

 

[eos]

Its not FREE travel except on the part of the pensioner.. the bus , tram , train company receive an annual amount from central Govenment to pay for the scheme... If the bus company reduce the number of services - then they should have the subsidy cut to match.

 

[Z12XE]

"Free at the point of use" is the best way to describe it.

 

[Mojo]

The rebate to bus operators comes from the Local Authority where the journey starts. The rebate is made up from a Central Government grant, however the grant does not cover all the costs that the councils are expected to make, leaving many councils expecting large shortfalls, particularly in coastal places popular with tourists, which leads to cuts in other council services and also threatens the viability of other concessionary travel (student rate bus passes and taxi tokens).

 

[Tom B]

... and cutting concessions for children will lose less votes than cutting them for OAPs.

I believe several operators are losing money because the amount given to them by the LA is too low - not just the likes of Firstbus, but LRT etc as well.

I do think it ought to be restricted nationwide, not before 9am and not between 4pm and 6pm. For example, today I stood on a bus, having paid my fare, carrying three heavy bags, because of the number of OAPs - despite the fact there was an empty bus they could have got on behind us.

 

[Bighat]

Oh this is SO pathetic.

Every eight on nine months, this subject raises its ugly head on this forum.

You can be sure the 'usual suspects' will throw in their two pennyworth of hate and envy.

Give it a rest guys.

 

[eos]

Public transport, we as a nation are constantly urged to leave the car and use public transport, so then the very section of the public that do that , get hammered for doing it. Try getting a seat on bus at 8am in the West Midlands. My thoughts are that Public transport, like a bus, should be free for all and paid for by Government.. The operating cost would be far less than that spent on just the advertising campaigns they run.. that's the true 'green' and sustainable option.

 

[Bighat]

Public transport, we as a nation are constantly urged to leave the car and use public transport, so then the very section of the public that do that , get hammered for doing it. Try getting a seat on bus at 8am in the West Midlands. My thoughts are that Public transport, like a bus, should be free for all and paid for by Government.. The operating cost would be far less than that spent on just the advertising campaigns they run.. that's the true 'green' and sustainable option.

There is already free travel in London on some routes. They are called bendy busses!

On the section between Ilford and Stratford, served only by the 25 (Citaro artic) and the 86 (double deck ALX400's), at almost any time of day, the 25's are rammed to bursting, whilst the 86's normally have room to spare.

Wonder why!

 

[Z12XE]

You can be sure the 'usual suspects' will throw in their two pennyworth of hate and envy.

Eh?

Envy + Bus does not add up !! Plus no one here is making up these problems - see the link to the BBC Website

 

[class 313]

Eh?

Envy + Bus does not add up !! Plus no one here is making up these problems - see the link to the BBC Website

What Bighat means is, this subject usually comes up every year at some time or another with the usual people with their anti-OAP bus travel arguments... (I think?)

 

[Metroland]

Oh this is SO pathetic.

Every eight on nine months, this subject raises its ugly head on this forum.

You can be sure the 'usual suspects' will throw in their two pennyworth of hate and envy.

Give it a rest guys.

It was posted because it appeared on the BBC news website, nothing to do with hate and envy. I've actually chosen not to post the news story about '5 new high speed lines', which has appeared in many newspapers and on the BBC news over the weekend because I feel we've discussed that enough. Indeed the 'usual suspects' will only accuse me of 'pushing an agenda' or stating a hate campaign against other forms of transport - which just isn't the case if people actually read and understand what I say. I just report the news and respond to many points, which are often myths. There's a good saying about not shooting the messenger.

I'm actually thinking of posting in a lot more light hearted (debate) about things, because clearly some people can't handle the serious side of transport and prefer to start pointless threads about 'what have you got on your desktop'. Which is a great shame, especially for those that are doing transport related qualifications or working in transport (at any serious level) who actually enjoy some of the little more heavyweight discussion which they ought to be interested if they actually want to work in transport - because these are exactly the sort of problems that need to be solved.

As for the OAPs, it's a knotty problem. In my opinion they should have been given a 'ration' of free off-peak trips. Moreover I fail to see why an old person with £500,000 in the bank and who owns their own house get completely free travel, when there is a lot more worthy candidates - such as the low paid or students. Again, you can call this 'hate and envy' if you like, I call it serious grown up debate.

 

[yorkie]

I can't see any hate or envy here. People have a right to dislike the scheme.

What I'd like to see instead is a pass offering significantly discounted bus and train travel to pensioners but not those who are well off and have loads of savings spare.

The current scheme is damaging for railways and bus routes alike, ironically.

 

[Nym]

I dislike it for many reasons, mainly that why should being old and therefore contributing nothing to the economy any more should you get free travel on the buses and take up the seats that other pepole need.

I always get evil looks for sitting in either the crew seats or the ones towards the front of the bus, from old pepole bacause they think they have a right to a seat, they have no more right to a seat on a bus than anyone else. Just because you're old doesn't mean you're disabled. Where as some days, I am in too much pain to walk more than a few hundred yards... Yet because I'm not old I can't be disabled.

I can't get one of the disabled passes for 2 main reasons...

1) How do I get to work on the 4am trains or uni on the 8am trains when most of my travel is on peak
2) Because it's not technicaly a disability I don't qualify, nor do I qualify for a blue badge because it's not a perminant disablment.

anyway, I'm ranting slightly...

I did have a bit of fun once when pepole with GMPTE Free Passes (OP) where being kicked off buses for not having the correct pass to travel before 9:30, which cheered me up a bit, but the evil looks for not giving up my seat, for which I contribute a LOT of money to GMPTE/GMPTA and therefore First Manchester, Stagecoach Manchester, FTPE, Northern, VT etc. And when they don't need to go anywhere...

Did once get shouted at by somone on bus that thought I was returning from drinking on a saturday morning and said, "You only feel bad cos you're ****ed, why does that get you a seat?".

To which I replied, "I get a seat because I was here first and have just finished a 12 hour night shift! (which I had), So why do you disurb this seat?"

There was no reply...

Anyway, if they want to give free bus passes out to pentioners they should pay to the bus company the fare that they would have paid for that journey on the bus, rather than the equivilant 3p/boarding that they currently get, or better yet, in the case of GMPTE, get the same money as an anual bus/train card and pay that to GMPTE through System One Travelcards to distribute the money in the same way, rather than using the crape scheme of not giving bus companies any money for having to accept pentioners.

Also another good idea would be, if a bus fills up, Paying passengers gain priority and those traveling for free could be kicked off for causing an obstruction to those that have to pay a full fare or purchase a full price travelcard...!

</RANT>

 

[jopsuk]

I can't see any hate or envy here. People have a right to dislike the scheme.

What I'd like to see instead is a pass offering significantly discounted bus and train travel to pensioners but not those who are well off and have loads of savings spare.

The current scheme is damaging for railways and bus routes alike, ironically.

mmm, Means Testing. Always fun, all that form filling.

 

[Nym]

With form filling to do, no-one would get one and profit could be made from form filler outers

 

[Bighat]

What Bighat means is, this subject usually comes up every year at some time or another with the usual people with their anti-OAP bus travel arguments... (I think?)

A succinct and accurate explanation of what I said!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

... and cutting concessions for children will lose less votes than cutting them for OAPs.

I believe several operators are losing money because the amount given to them by the LA is too low - not just the likes of Firstbus, but LRT etc as well.

I do think it ought to be restricted nationwide, not before 9am and not between 4pm and 6pm. For example, today I stood on a bus, having paid my fare, carrying three heavy bags, because of the number of OAPs - despite the fact there was an empty bus they could have got on behind us.

Diddums!

Could YOU not have got on this wonderful empty bus?

Stop banging this same old drum - again!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It was posted because it appeared on the BBC news website, nothing to do with hate and envy. I've actually chosen not to post the news story about '5 new high speed lines', which has appeared in many newspapers and on the BBC news over the weekend because I feel we've discussed that enough. Indeed the 'usual suspects' will only accuse me of 'pushing an agenda' or stating a hate campaign against other forms of transport - which just isn't the case if people actually read and understand what I say. I just report the news and respond to many points, which are often myths. There's a good saying about not shooting the messenger.

I'm actually thinking of posting in a lot more light hearted (debate) about things, because clearly some people can't handle the serious side of transport and prefer to start pointless threads about 'what have you got on your desktop'. Which is a great shame, especially for those that are doing transport related qualifications or working in transport (at any serious level) who actually enjoy some of the little more heavyweight discussion which they ought to be interested if they actually want to work in transport - because these are exactly the sort of problems that need to be solved.

As for the OAPs, it's a knotty problem. In my opinion they should have been given a 'ration' of free off-peak trips. Moreover I fail to see why an old person with £500,000 in the bank and who owns their own house get completely free travel, when there is a lot more worthy candidates - such as the low paid or students. Again, you can call this 'hate and envy' if you like, I call it serious grown up debate.

Yes, and its ALL been said before.

You choose an example which portrays a wealthy OAP 'cadging' off society. Have you ever stopped to consider the amount of TAX that person has conributed to the Exchequer in their lifetime?

They have also made a substantial contribution to the costs of 'educating the poor hard up student' to whom you also allude. In one case I can think of, may have been a waste of money!

The 'adult debate' which you claim to crave will NEVER happen when you make such distorted (and wildly inaccurate) assertions to 'justify' your arguement.

And yes, I DO have a Freedom Pass, have had for three years now. I have used it TWICE in that time, whilst in the same period I have paid over £40,000 in DIRECT taxation, and god knows how much in indirect taxes!

The ONLY reason I used it was two Christmasses ago, when I needed to pop down to my local shopping centre (3 miles) and the car parks in the town were rammed.

THAT is two VERY expensive journeys!

 

[Metroland]

And yes, I DO have a Freedom Pass, have had for three years now. I have used it TWICE in that time, whilst in the same period I have paid over £40,000 in DIRECT taxation, and god knows how much in indirect taxes!

Well then clearly you don't need a free bus pass and no wonder you are so sensitive about the subject.

 

[Tom B]

I could not have got the bus behind, because I was already on the bus - which is the one I must get because it serves my uni, and my destination - and I had paid a cash fare, which entitles me to one single trip, not two. Indeed; if a bus is busy and I'm not carrying cases and there is another behind which is quiet and goes where I want to go, I will change. However, many OAPs got on and then got off at a place which the other buses all served.

 

[Bighat]

Well then clearly you don't need a free bus pass and no wonder you are so sensitive about the subject.

Correct, I don't NEED a bus pass, but as I have paid hansomly for the provision of such a service, I have claimed it.

You may not need to use the NHS, but you will sure as hell be glad it is available should you or your parents (heaven forbid) fall ill suddenly.

It's all part of the British concept of 'for the common good'.

Go live in the USA if you want to experience the concept of 'the best MONEY can buy'.

Trouble with that is, no money, no service (transport/education/health care/housing) provided!

 

[45002]

So when most of you reach 60 then you wont be applying for your pass then will you ?

MARTIN :grin:

 

[Z12XE]

So when most of you reach 60 then you wont be applying for your pass then will you ?

Given the way bus services are declining and being axed around here, there wont be a need for a free bus pass by the time I'm 60......

 

[Guinness]

Keeps old people away from driving. I'm happy

 

[gordonthemoron]

Keeps old people away from driving. I'm happy

That's the right attitude. Whilst I'm some way off from being eligible for a free pass, I've done more than my share of driving and can't be arsed anymore.

 

[Metroland]

I don't think anyone said they were against free OAP travel, opinions were expressed that is it badly implemented. The common good has been mentioned, but when bus routes have/are being axed and fair paying passengers are being left behind - often people who have no choice but to use buses, there is something wrong.

 

[Bighat]

I don't think anyone said they were against free OAP travel, opinions were expressed that is it badly implemented. The common good has been mentioned, but when bus routes have/are being axed and fair paying passengers are being left behind - often people who have no choice but to use buses, there is something wrong.

Quite so.

Several people alluded to the fact that they WERE against 'free' OAP travel though.

To take up your point about services being axed because they were not 'profitable' due to high OAP use, then that's down to the operating company which accepted the terms and conditions set by the licensing authority in the first place.

If they are unhappy about it, they should either renegotiate the agreement, or give up their licence to a company who IS prepared to run the service. No problem there.

 

[Mojo]

If they are unhappy about it, they should either renegotiate the agreement, or give up their licence to a company who IS prepared to run the service. No problem there.

If there was scope for an alternative company on many routes, I think they would have already tapped into the market. There is virtually no limit to the number of buses you can have running on one road route outside of London (excluding Quality Contract corridors).

 

[Tom B]

If they are unhappy about it, they should either renegotiate the agreement, or give up their licence to a company who IS prepared to run the service. No problem there.

What happens if no company is prepared to run the service?

For those of us outwith London, a bus route must be run commercially, or in a small number of cases supported by the local authority. But hang on, since the LA are spending increasing amounts of money on free travel, where's the money for supported services going to come from...?

 

[xc170]

Its not just old people who get free bus travel, i do to becuase i am registered visually impaired, the bus companies are getting paid the money from the govenment so its not costing them anything. Hear in tamworth we cannot use our bus passes before 9.30 we have to pay like normal people i had forgot how expensive it is to use busses £2 for a 10 minuite journey.

Regards

Adam