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More RPI deficiency

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VauxhallandI

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My colleague was on the 6:53 Billericay to Liverpool St service this morning and confronted in "First Class" with the statement of "this is first class can I see your tickets?"

My colleague has a second class season ticket and had to show the timetable to the person.

I think a £20 fine for an honest mistake is in order.
 
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VauxhallandI

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My colleague was on the 6:53 Billericay to Liverpool St service this morning and confronted in "First Class" with the statement of "this is first class can I see your tickets?"

My colleague has a second class season ticket and had to show the timetable to the person.

I think a £20 fine for an honest mistake is in order.

Sorry, a terribly written post.

Yes the RPI moved on as there is no first class on the service.

I think the TOC made an honest mistake and needs to pay a £20 charge.
 

yorkie

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I agree there should be much more parity. But there never will be.

But what your friend can do is write to the Company regarding this, seeking assurances that suitable training will be provided to ensure that such incidents do not occur in future. If unhappy with the response, or if future incidents do occur, refer the matter to Transport Focus, the DfT (as far as I'm concerned this is a franchise breach and can be reported as such), and ORR (who should be protecting consumer rights).

If a Penalty Fare was issued it would then be down to the passenger to provide evidence the PF was legitimate which is completely totally and utterly morally wrong. The system is utterly flawed and will remain that way.

This is not as uncommon as you might think, and I believe it will keep happening because hardly anyone ever reports the TOCs to the DfT or ORR so nothing ever changes. They are effectively being allowed to falsely accuse people of various things with impunity.
 

LexyBoy

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The problem is, what are you going to base your complaint on? I have yet to see anything in the public domain which states that FC is declassified if not advertised in the timetable. The usual caveat that if you complain enough the TOC will back down (on this occasion) applies.

I appreciate that this has been a longstanding arrangement, and may well be codified internally, but it's not a contractual right as far as I can see. I can't imagine a court ruling that a train does not convey "first class accomodation" as per Condition 39 solely because the timetable does not show First Class availability.
 

island

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What LexyBoy said, really. The principle that standard tickets are valid in first class where first class accommodation is not codified in any public document and a byelaw 13 (1) (ii) offence (entering or remaining on a part of the railway where there is a notice indicating that it is reserved or provided for a specified category of person only, except where he belongs to that specified category) could well be committed.
 

Bletchleyite

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That "rule" could really do with going in the NRCoC, because it is applied rather inconsistently, which means some passengers gain from it and others don't. That, or the rule becomes that it's always First Class if present, unless explicitly declassified by way of notices or announcements.

Either would do, as with anything ticketing-related it's inconsistency that causes problems.
 

jon0844

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AGA RPIs (can't speak for the guards on some of the more rural services, as that's a whole different kettle of fish) won't issue PFs or often even check services where first class is declassified.

By their own admission, doing checks on some of the stoppers that are declassified are a pain - and I guess they deem it more practical to do blocks at stations themselves.

As such, once they realised they were working a train that didn't have first class, chances are they soon alighted and took another service instead?

I've had many RPIs genuinely not know what service they're working, and get confused when consulting their own timetable. If a train is late, it's even more confusing. But, in 99% of cases just telling them sorts it out.

Only once have I seen people issued PFs and them being immediately refunded there and then once it became clear there was no advertised first class (this was with FCC, not AGA, mind).

I know it's a can of worms, but I am pretty certain all the TOCs operating services into London will have the same policy. Far better to concentrate on services with first class and avoid any hassles, given the fact RPIs are already spread pretty thin.
 

VauxhallandI

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The problem is, what are you going to base your complaint on? I have yet to see anything in the public domain which states that FC is declassified if not advertised in the timetable. The usual caveat that if you complain enough the TOC will back down (on this occasion) applies.

I appreciate that this has been a longstanding arrangement, and may well be codified internally, but it's not a contractual right as far as I can see. I can't imagine a court ruling that a train does not convey "first class accomodation" as per Condition 39 solely because the timetable does not show First Class availability.

You cannot buy a FC ticket for the service; that combined with the timetable stating no FC.

If a passenger can research this I expectnan RPI to as well.
 

furlong

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You cannot buy a FC ticket for the service; that combined with the timetable stating no FC.

That plus long-standing railway custom and practice and in specific circumstances the risk of the company finding itself in breach of various franchise commitments.
 

yorkie

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If a train is advertised as conveying standard class only, then it is standard class only. Simple as that as far as I'm concerned. Others are welcome to agree to disagree with me, but it seems straightforward to me!

However I agree with others that clarification should be given in the NRCoC or at least on the National Rail website. I applaud those Train Companies (e.g Southern to name just one) who do make the situation clear.
 

sarahj

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If a train is advertised as conveying standard class only, then it is standard class only. Simple as that as far as I'm concerned. Others are welcome to agree to disagree with me, but it seems straightforward to me!

However I agree with others that clarification should be given in the NRCoC or at least on the National Rail website. I applaud those Train Companies (e.g Southern to name just one) who do make the situation clear.

Funny you should say that. The auto lady goes 'some services'. Anyway, last week I was working a train that said 313 on mine and the drivers diagram. However, the train sitting in the platform was a 377. I took the 'correct' view that since it was marked as a 313 and no first class would be indicated on the timetable, there was no 'first class' on the train. No one did sit in 'first class' anyway, but in discussion with some other members of staff indicated they would have enforced first class.
The next day it was back to a 313 and all was well, well first class wise. Its a busy train, but less busy as a 4 car 377 than a 3 car 313.
 
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beeza1

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I think a £20 fine for an honest mistake is in order.

Reminds me of a journey I made a couple of years ago when the guard on the Northern service was trying to sell me a ticket for a completely different route to the one I was travelling on, "sorry my mistake" was his response after I pointed out his error.
I replied "that will be £80 please, after all if I make a mistake that's what Northern would charge me". His response is unprintable.
 

Mag_seven

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If a train is advertised as conveying standard class only, then it is standard class only. Simple as that as far as I'm concerned. Others are welcome to agree to disagree with me, but it seems straightforward to me!

However I agree with others that clarification should be given in the NRCoC or at least on the National Rail website. I applaud those Train Companies (e.g Southern to name just one) who do make the situation clear.

I suppose its more clear cut when the odd set with first class appears on a route that is entirely Standard Class Only e.g. a ScotRail First Class 170 appearing on a Glasgow QS to Anniesland via Maryhill service.

More difficult in this case where the bulk of services have first class but the odd one hasn't.

(p.s. is this one of the services from Southend Vic that prior to GA losing the inner suburban services to TfL was operated by a class 315?)
 

MP33

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You are correct a limited number of early morning and also a later morning parliamentary type train were operated by class 315 stock.
 

CyrusWuff

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From the eNRT "References and Symbols" page:

Network Rail said:
Accommodation
All services shown in this Timetable convey Standard Accommodation only unless otherwise shown.

Seems pretty definitive to me...And indeed, Table 6 shows that the train in question (0626SX ex-Southend Vic), along with the 0400SX and 0430SX ex-Southend Vic, and the 0535SX and 0605SO ex-Liverpool Street, only conveys Standard Accommodation.
 

VauxhallandI

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Reminds me of a journey I made a couple of years ago when the guard on the Northern service was trying to sell me a ticket for a completely different route to the one I was travelling on, "sorry my mistake" was his response after I pointed out his error.
I replied "that will be £80 please, after all if I make a mistake that's what Northern would charge me". His response is unprintable.

Sounds like they failed the attitude test
 

Mag_seven

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From the eNRT "References and Symbols" page:



Seems pretty definitive to me...And indeed, Table 6 shows that the train in question (0626SX ex-Southend Vic), along with the 0400SX and 0430SX ex-Southend Vic, and the 0535SX and 0605SO ex-Liverpool Street, only conveys Standard Accommodation.

Looks like these services were formally operated by class 315's. However I suspect they are now operated by Class 321's but the TT has not been updated to reflect the fact they now convey 1st class!
 

LexyBoy

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If a train is advertised as conveying standard class only, then it is standard class only. Simple as that as far as I'm concerned. Others are welcome to agree to disagree with me, but it seems straightforward to me!

If, for example, a 313 turned up on a service advertised as conveying 1st, would you argue that it does in fact have 1st despite the situation on-board? I'm struggling to see the difference.

If it were me, it's not something I'd like to push without something in writing from the TOC concerned over its validity.
 
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